There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Great Destiny Man]

It was trackable, numbers who killed the last boss:

SoO: 1026 25 man guilds vs 2861 10 mans
ToT: 338 vs 4750

prior to that, unfortunately, wowprogress seems to have lumped the 2 together.

Don't know why so few 25 man guilds made it to ra-den vs 10 man. Point being though, they screwed over a lot more guilds going to 20 then if they had gone with 15 or 10.

It'd be nice if you provided an actual source to know what criteria you're searching on rather than just throwing up numbers. I have no idea if that's actual 10 man guilds or just kills that only involve 10 people (which could still be from 25 man guilds for all I know).

I wasn't around for MoP so I can't comment on the difficulty of specific bosses in different raid sizes.

[Onikaroshi]

It'd be nice if you provided an actual source to know what criteria you're searching on rather than just throwing up numbers. I have no idea if that's actual 10 man guilds or just kills that only involve 10 people (which could still be from 25 man guilds for all I know).

I wasn't around for MoP so I can't comment on the difficulty of specific bosses in different raid sizes.

It's wowprogress, sure there could be a few 25 man guilds being counted in the 10 mans. But even if EVERY 25 man went and did 10 man there would STILL be more 10 man guilds getting CE (forget if they actually had that at that point though)

[Great Destiny Man]

It's wowprogress, sure there could be a few 25 man guilds being counted in the 10 mans. But even if EVERY 25 man went and did 10 man there would STILL be more 10 man guilds getting CE (forget if they actually had that at that point though)

There's no could about it, there are 25 man guilds that rank in the 10 man list as well. One glaring example is Scrubusters who are both world 9 in 25 and world 1335 on 10 man.

Also looking at the ToT data alone you're factoring in LOTS of kills that happened after SoO was released so that's not reliable data when my initial question was "serious raiding guilds" on both sides.

[Onikaroshi]

There's no could about it, there are 25 man guilds that rank in the 10 man list as well. One glaring example is Scrubusters who are both world 9 in 25 and world 1335 on 10 man.

Also looking at the ToT data alone you're factoring in LOTS of kills that happened after SoO was released so that's not reliable data when my initial question was "serious raiding guilds" on both sides.

SoO opened Sep 10/11.

That puts it at around 257 25 man kills vs. vs around 1092 10 man guilds. So yea, a lot lower on the 10 man front but STILL a huge amount of 10 man guilds vs 25. Do I need to keep going? 10 man was hugely more popular in both the casual and serious heroic raiding environment.

I'ts funny you mention Scrubusters, they only did ToT on 10 man after SoO was release :P (nothing against what you said on that, just a funny thing to note)

Compare all that to under 700 guilds that killed mythic blackhand before HFC...

[Deleted]

Eh, would have probably been better to go with some like 10-15, 10 man guilds out numbered 25s like crazy

Just becouse there was more 10 man guilds doesnt make it good move to cutter mythic for 10 mans. With only 10 or even 15 people it is hard to create interesting enncounters as you have very limited pool of classes. Sometimes it is just better to no follow what is more popular or ha e higher participation as you can see with bfa. Bfa is beatufull example what will happen when you desing game around particaption, majority and completly ignore fact you deal with emotions, feelings and no just with numbers.

[Great Destiny Man]

SoO opened Sep 10/11.

That puts it at around 257 25 man kills vs. vs around 1092 10 man guilds. So yea, a lot lower on the 10 man front but STILL a huge amount of 10 man guilds vs 25. Do I need to keep going? 10 man was hugely more popular in both the casual and serious heroic raiding environment.

I mean all of this is proving my original point, which is accurate data for 25 vs 10 man is difficult to ascertain. Also looking back at old threads on Lei Shen it's quite clear that 10 man mode was definitely easier than 25 which really skews the results here.

If we take a look at SoO Wargraphs shows a higher spread of 25 Cutting Edge Achievements vs 10 man https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271. I wouldn't even say that's fully accurate by itself either but that further feeds into my original point.

I'ts funny you mention Scrubusters, they only did ToT on 10 man after SoO was release :P (nothing against what you said on that, just a funny thing to note)

Yea certainly interesting to see with them, would've expected a 10 man kill much sooner but oh well.

Compare all that to under 700 guilds that killed mythic blackhand before HFC...

Difficult to compare though really considering Blackrock foundry lasted for ~4 months as opposed to ToT which was ~6 months, plus you had things like sub drop offs and initial difficulty of Blackhand.

[Volitar]

Casuals: SO WHAT IF I HAVE THE SAME GEAR AS SOMEONE WHO IS 8/8 MYTHIC I PAY THE SAME AMOUNT AS YOU DO.

*every M+ group asking for ridiculous raiderio score to prove you're not a noob*

Casuals: WHY DOES THIS IMAGINARY SCORE DETERMINE IF I CAN JOIN GROUPS OR NOT

[NatePsy]

As everyone else has said, the trade off is you get exclusive traits at an even higher item level because azerite gear does not WF/TF on Normal/Heroic. These people at 380+ are doing 10+'s every week, so trust me when I say that it's not because they're doing strictly Normal/Heroic. And if it is from Mythic+ farming, why is that a bad thing? Why does everyone need to be shoe-horned into raiding? Take a look at Warlords when they tried that, the expansion failed because that was one of it's main gripes.

To add, I've done a fair bit of Mythic progression both current and previous expansion and I don't even care. In short, get over yourself, the game is bigger than you.

[Mardux]

i call bs . - link or never happend.

380 i could maaaaybe belive with craaaaazy luck with TF but i will never belive in 389 that is not farming mythic 10+ week after week and on top of it has ridiculous luck with tf.

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tier is over. the only reason you have those itlv is because catch up for next raid is already in game. in 2 weeks everybody will be 370 but hardmode players will be 400 +

So he linked it. What now?

Also, I noticed how he never mentioned that he wasn't farming m10s in his post. That just happened to be where you moved the goal post.

[Averrix]

Why do people care so much about what other people have in a Videogame?

Because they have nothing else in life.

[Marrilaife]

As everyone else has said, the trade off is you get exclusive traits at an even higher item level because azerite gear does not WF/TF on Normal/Heroic.

One gripe is the darkshore warfront / world boss that has inflated ilvl, yet is already available, while for m+ / raid gear you have to wait until January 22. Another thing is yes, you could theoretically farm a lot of low level azerite, scrap it, and then buy a random 385 token (the non-random one is too expensive for that). And the "exclusive" traits are nothing amazing really. The biggest usefulness of them is having 1 inside Uldir for reorigination array, but outside of the raid they don't have that much value.

[Onikaroshi]

I mean all of this is proving my original point, which is accurate data for 25 vs 10 man is difficult to ascertain. Also looking back at old threads on Lei Shen it's quite clear that 10 man mode was definitely easier than 25 which really skews the results here.

If we take a look at SoO Wargraphs shows a higher spread of 25 Cutting Edge Achievements vs 10 man https://www.worldofwargraphs.com/glo...category-15271. I wouldn't even say that's fully accurate by itself either but that further feeds into my original point.



Yea certainly interesting to see with them, would've expected a 10 man kill much sooner but oh well.



Difficult to compare though really considering Blackrock foundry lasted for ~4 months as opposed to ToT which was ~6 months, plus you had things like sub drop offs and initial difficulty of Blackhand.

I just want 10 man raiding back going to 20 man was the death of high end raiding for me. I HATE raiding with large amounts of people.

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Just becouse there was more 10 man guilds doesnt make it good move to cutter mythic for 10 mans. With only 10 or even 15 people it is hard to create interesting enncounters as you have very limited pool of classes. Sometimes it is just better to no follow what is more popular or ha e higher participation as you can see with bfa. Bfa is beatufull example what will happen when you desing game around particaption, majority and completly ignore fact you deal with emotions, feelings and no just with numbers.

They made the excuse of "it will allow us to make sure that there is always a certain X in the raid". They've basically done nothing with that. They could easily have tuned all raids from mythics release til now for 10-15 people.

[Satelliteyears0o]

It is absolutely pathetic to see that people with no Mythic progression what so ever (or at best Taloc/Mother in pugs) have the exact same ilvl as my main that progressed trough Udlir and now counts 44 mythic boss killed actually sitting at 385 ilvl. I also see that with my alts, my DH is 384 and rogue 385 ilvl, both are not even close to have the same time and effort invested of my main.

Truth is, Mythic raiding will only give you gear a little bit faster in this game, but at the end of the day: Blizzard is just throwing Mythic ilvl gear to everybody and for no reason. Just for the sake of everybody being equal, even if you don't do shit in this game they want you to be as geared a hardcore player.

This was already the case in Legion but in BFA this issue has just been so inflated it's seems like a parody. This game has gone to pure shit in every way possible it's fucking pathetic.

Want something worth talking about? get gladiator.

[Elestia]

It's not really a matter of giving away 385 ilvl. I'm not sure how common it is for non-mythic players to have mythic ilvl... it's silly that it's even possible sure.. but honestly, it's pretty childish to think hard work makes you better than other players.

Seriously though, the fact that Uldir has been out for 5 months is ridiculous - this is the real issue. It's simply just a matter of time before people accrue gear through alternative means when there's literally nothing to do in the game beside leveling alts or grinding M+.

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I just want 10 man raiding back going to 20 man was the death of high end raiding for me. I HATE raiding with large amounts of people.

Yep, 20 man mythic has been pretty detrimental to the game for quite awhile now. Few guilds per realm establish the community necessary to sustain 20 man rosters. It has been and still is a stupid barrier to entry.

I would agree, and as a veteran player of over a decade that I walked away from raiding because 20 man raiding is so shit. The drama of who 'makes' the roster. The resource drain of supporting the 15 do nothings that want free gems, enchants and pots. All the things that make raiding fun are seriously not fun in a 20 man.

10 man was just so awesome and easy to manage and fun to play in.

[NatePsy]

It's not really a matter of giving away 385 ilvl. I'm not sure how common it is for non-mythic players to have mythic ilvl... it's silly that it's even possible sure.. but honestly, it's pretty childish to think hard work makes you better than other players.

Seriously though, the fact that Uldir has been out for 5 months is ridiculous - this is the real issue. It's simply just a matter of time before people accrue gear through alternative means when there's literally nothing to do in the game beside leveling alts or grinding M+.

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Yep, 20 man mythic has been pretty detrimental to the game for quite awhile now. Few guilds per realm establish the community necessary to sustain 20 man rosters. It has been and still is a stupid barrier to entry.

I would agree, and as a veteran player of over a decade that I walked away from raiding because 20 man raiding is so shit. The drama of who 'makes' the roster. The resource drain of supporting the 15 do nothings that want free gems, enchants and pots. All the things that make raiding fun are seriously not fun in a 20 man.

10 man was just so awesome and easy to manage and fun to play in.

I'm surprised they haven't just reduced it down to 10-man with a fluff post why they decided to do it. They're a bit too stubborn and it's hurting their game.

[kamuimac]

I just want 10 man raiding back going to 20 man was the death of high end raiding for me. I HATE raiding with large amounts of people.
.

amen. if they didnt remove 10 mans i would still probably be raiding with my close knit group of friends.

[swatsonqt]

Guys please... he is investing a lot of time for wow and that should be enough effort to give him more ilvl then everyone else because he is spending so much time ingame and it'S just fair that he has more power than others who can't spend so much time and struggle through raids. It's perfectly fine that he rant'S about gear because everyone else should be forced to bow to him for his mighty pixels okay.

Seriously someone who has played the entire time of bfa should just grind catchup every other patch because he is not allowed to have so much ilvl because you know...only people who play alot should get the good rewards.

[kamuimac]

Or this has really nothing to do with the actually argument here. The discussion of how gear is obtained, and just how inflated item level is because of how easy it is to gear. The fact that in a game that lacks content, they seem to go out of there way to make content obsolete as fast as possible.

does big numbers scare you ?

because who cares if gear has itlv 100 or 100000 - at the end of the day its just a number which should be constantly growing - because thats the principle of mmorpg - to get always gradualy stronger

[Deleted]

ITT: Casuals defending how they should have access to BiS ilvl gear.

[zetitup]

Yeah the PvP players should not get any ilvl gear at all... I hate seeing people doing PvP having higher ilvl than my main cause of luck..