and the govt shutdown still exists..

[Draco-Onis]

/facepalm..... You realize the entire American economy doesn't work in a vacuum right? Like, theres not 500 separate bank accts for each thing they are paying out for? I agree the wall is a moronic idea, but trying to sit on a pedestal screeching "BUT MEXICO ISN'T PAYING FOR IT BECAUSE NEW TRADE AGREEMENT DOES NOT COUNT GAIZ" is the most moronic and spoonfed media nonsense I can think of.

Money made on trade deals are by private businesses the government doesn't get the money, the new trade agreement is not in effect it still has to be ratified by both countries legislative branches.

[Krigaren]

Maybe where these walls have worked would give you a better "indication".....

https://www.amren.com/news/2019/01/border-walls-work-2/

Each barrier listed in that article is 100 to 200 miles long, with guard towers manned by military personnel that have shoot-on-sight orders.

The proposed US-Mexico wall is 2,000 miles long and unless there is a massive increase in federal spending and a massive decrease in American morals, there's no way to monitor the US border in the same way. This also doesn't even consider that a shoot-on-sight policy is impossible without declaring the border as a conflict zone and could be considered an act of war with Mexico.

Also, none of the walls listed cost anywhere near a fraction of what Trump's wall would cost. And even with as "small" as the Berlin wall was, even with all of the military security, even with all of the moats and anti-vehicle barriers, people and contraband still managed to get across from east to west.

But yes, I know, "pREsiDEnT oBaMA hAs a waLL aROunD hIs maNsiON!"

It's almost as though scale is a thing that decreases efficiency and effectiveness.

[Katchii]

1) Fair
2) The amount allocated is meant to pay for things like Border Patrol, the checkpoints, ironically enough the wall maintenance in California etc
3) Even at, your high estimate of 25B, and we'll toss in a billion a year in maintenance etc, thats STILL a hilariously small drop in the bucket of spending
4) Please dont tell me you are one of those fucking morons that thought Trump meant Mexico was literally going to cut a cheque to the USA for the cost of the wall?

Whether we really believed it or not isn't the point, that's what he promised. The plan to build the wall was ridiculous before, when he was claiming someone else would pay for it. It's beyond ridiculous now that the American people are expected to pay for it when we apparently don't even want it otherwise he'd easily be able to appropriate the funding. The reason the government is shutting down is because America as a whole does not want the wall. We want actual REAL immigration policy that will actually do something, not some archaic expensive gaudy wall that won't do a damned thing except cost a shitload of money we don't even have to spend.

Toss in the fact that border security personnel are also affected by the shutdown, meaning they are not getting paid, and you get this whole situation into Spaceballs levels of ludicrous.

[Toppy]

/facepalm..... You realize the entire American economy doesn't work in a vacuum right? Like, theres not 500 separate bank accts for each thing they are paying out for? I agree the wall is a moronic idea, but trying to sit on a pedestal screeching "BUT MEXICO ISN'T PAYING FOR IT BECAUSE NEW TRADE AGREEMENT DOES NOT COUNT GAIZ" is the most moronic and spoonfed media nonsense I can think of.

That wasnt an answer, just a deflection.

How does he expect Mexico to pay for the wall?

[igualitarist]

Looks like mmo-c is turning into another liberal echo chamber.

It's pretty funny, to be honest.

The best part is when you see a thread with basically only liberals/ democrats posting, and they still complain the majority of the posters here are conservatives/ republicans, or when a "wild conservative appears", and he gets like, 10 replies in the next 2 pages. I wonder in which universe they are living in.

[Katchii]

How many of those overstays do you think got their visas stamped with "drug smuggler" or "sex trafficker"? Just curious.....

Are you implying that people who got here legally through visas can't be or are not drug smugglers or sex traffickers or that those people are the only ones coming in here illegally?

How well do you think a wall is going to do at keeping determined people out when these people are already circumventing the ones we have?

[JohnBrown1917]

Nice fearmongering. These people get back pay, and have been through it before. Maybe start your thread off with less personal attacks on someone and more facts?

Those people still need to pay rent/utilities, eat food..

[The Stormbringer]

Here is why I don't want a wall and why I would support my tax money going to better border patrol and more enforcement across the country:

- The wall is ecologically devastating. Parts of it are going through protected wildlife and plant sanctuaries, wrecking millions of years of cultivation and destroying species that we may never see again
- The wall, once done, will require constant resources and even more environmentally damaging maintenance to remain together through natural disasters
- Better enforcement, better tracking of visas and entry, better wages and incentives to deter corruption, better methods to detect corruption lead to a better economy and more jobs overall for a longer period of time than a single wall being built.

Let's not forget that some areas on the border have these high-tech sensor towers that work a hell of a lot better than any wall could. We could set up more sensor towers, improve equipment and training for the people servicing them and investigating their results, and still save fuck-loads of money over a wall. It'd also be far less disruptive to the environment.

[Unholyground]

We had heathcare, obamacare made it worse. Not to mention it still doesn't change the fact it was shutdown until a child got his way.

Actually it made it a bit more expensive for middle class but it gave way more options for lower end class people who would normally not be able to afford any of it. Universal is the way to go but it is too large of a business in the states now for them to let go of unfortunately.

[Katchii]

So you do agree that walls work, k thanks.

Walls work as a deterrent for random shenanigans, not against people determined to get past them.

The same way locked car doors and closed windows are a deterrent from random people from taking stuff from your car. Doesn't stop people seriously determined from breaking into it though.

The wall would be as effective as putting a $25 billion dollar band-aid on a small laceration on your head, when you're bleeding out from a gun shot wound to the chest, and missing a leg.

Your're delusional if you think the wall's going to do anything meaningful to combat the situation we're actually trying to fix.

[-Nurot]

We had heathcare, obamacare made it worse. Not to mention it still doesn't change the fact it was shutdown until a child got his way.

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but wasn't the 2013 shutdown because the GOP, couldn't block the ACA to begin with, failed multiple repeal attempts, and then tried unsuccessfully to use that shutdown to attempt to defund the ACA. Then the same group who controlled all 3 branches for the last 2 years did nothing except get rid of the individual mandate ensuring prices will rise, hiding it in a mixed bag of tricks giving themselves trillions in a tax break?

*checks notes*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2.../#753ea2687d9d

Seems I remembered correctly. The comparison between 2013 and now seems to be a false equivalence more than anything else.

[Krigaren]

3) Even at, your high estimate of 25B, and we'll toss in a billion a year in maintenance etc, thats STILL a hilariously small drop in the bucket of spending

That's not my estimate, nor is it the "high" estimate. It's the commonly accepted estimate, it's the amount that Democrats offered Trump in January of last year, and it's the amount that Trump is demanding now.

4) Please dont tell me you are one of those fucking morons that thought Trump meant Mexico was literally going to cut a cheque to the USA for the cost of the wall?

Wow, you seriously wrote this.

Tell me High Mind, what do you think Trump supporters believed when Trump said - repeatedly - during his campaign that Mexico would "Pay for the wall, 100%"?

I never believed for a second that Mexico would ever pay for the wall, so what I believe is highly irrelevant. What is relevant is Trump's repeated claims that Mexico would pay for the wall. He didn't specify that it would be though "trade deals" until much later, and even then it's still a bullshit claim since an improved NAFTA doesn't fund the government.

So how about YOU tell ME what you thought Trump meant? Cause here in reality we've long understood that there is zero possible way to get Mexico to pay for the wall in any form, or through any means.

- - - Updated - - -

So you do agree that walls work, k thanks.

Your amount of intellectual honesty and good faith argument is staggering.

[The Stormbringer]

Nice fearmongering. These people get back pay, and have been through it before. Maybe start your thread off with less personal attacks on someone and more facts?

I'm sure their landlords, utility companies, phone companies, internet companies, and grocers will all be very understanding and just let them get by with a, "Don't worry, I'll be getting paid... eventually!"

[Checkt]

I remember saying the same thing in 2013 when it shutdown for Obamacare.

Ah, the right's newest googled buzz-phrase. Yes, let's examine the situations, shall we? The Affordable Care act had already passed (meaning, those silly things caused the House and Senate, had already voted on the ACA) and Ted Cruz led the charge trying a last ditch effort to not fund the bill (which as mentioned, had passed) -- currently the shutdown is to force the wall funding.

None of this takes into consideration, of course, that during 2013 45% of America supported the ACA (which has since risen to over 50%) and that currently, almost 60% OPPOSE the wall...so are they really the same, or are you just repeating a talking point because it sounds good?

[Gorsameth]

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but wasn't the 2013 shutdown because the GOP, couldn't block the ACA to begin with, failed multiple repeal attempts, and then tried unsuccessfully to use that shutdown to attempt to defund the ACA. Then the same group who controlled all 3 branches for the last 2 years did nothing except get rid of the individual mandate ensuring prices will rise, hiding it in a mixed bag of tricks giving themselves trillions in a tax break?

*checks notes*

https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2.../#753ea2687d9d

Seems I remembered correctly. The comparison between 2013 and now seems to be a false equivalence more than anything else.

Expect a lot of Republicans to start talking about deficits and balancing the budget again.
They mysteriously forgot about that for the last 2 years.

[IIamaKing]

Shit happens like every year now, less to do with the man and more to do with a system that allows this dysfunction to continue. I have responsibilities at work, If I fail to do them, I get fired. Yet every year we let the snakes on the hill play politics with our lives and keep their jobs. Its a rigged game.

[FailtakuPolytrash]

I remember Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi made a joint speech at the American Renaissance convention this year promising they will help fund a wall and keep out illegal immigrants and put more in jail, I wonder what changed their mind.

[Toppy]

Shit happens like every year now, less to do with the man and more to do with a system that allows this dysfunction to continue. I have responsibilities at work, If I fail to do them, I get fired. Yet every year we let the snakes on the hill play politics with our lives and keep their jobs. Its a rigged game.

"every year now"

You mean, not at all during Bush Jr, once in 2013 which was blatantly the GOP's doing, and again now, once more, very blatantly the GOP's doing?

"BOTH SIDES"

- - - Updated - - -

I remember Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi made a joint speech at the American Renaissance convention this year promising they will help fund a wall and keep out illegal immigrants and put more in jail, I wonder what changed their mind.

The opposite happened.

https://www.amren.com/news/2018/10/n...-wall-funding/

[SinR]

if you think its JUST trump you're completely misinformed.

Republicans vs Democrats. its that simple.

The Right puts something in the budget the Left doesn't like, SHITSTORM happens, Left submits a new budget without that thing but with something else in it that the Right doesn't like, SHITSTORM happens. Repeat until they both manage to agree on a watered down version of the budget that gets NOTHING done outside of paying their salaries.

If the Democrats say the sky is Blue, Republicans will scream bloody murder that the Democrats are wrong. and vice versa. Republicans say that Water is Wet, Democrats scream that Water is Dry.

[FailtakuPolytrash]

"We need to keep out illegal immigrants with any means necessary, a big wall if we have to, these people costing the American taxpayer over 15 billion a year in terms of healthcare, education, and public assistance. We need to put our people first and secure our border."

--- Chuck Schumer, Nov 21, 2018, in an interview with Arizona state senator John McCain.