Remove Pathfinder for Flying

[lappee]

Yes but... no?

Dungeons (especially m+) are indeed challenging. Not only the first time but every single time you repeat them (again, m+). Yes, you do that for the object , but there’s more: will I make it in time? Will I be able to do 100%? Will I avoid dying?

For the open world is a different story. There’s no mythic WQ system. Quests are always the same, the more your ilvl rises, the trivial they become. I don’t see any “opness” in skipping the path towards them.

M+ is, if you thrive to do it on higher than +10 (which is where rewards cap in iLvl) but if you don't or you do raids then theres really no challenge for people. They just become trivial so why would there be any opness is skipping them?

[chiddie]

I've never found it to be an issue because I always got pathfinder while the content was current and it simply applied to all my alts. I guess you're talking then about people who never played the content while it was current. I am curious as to why you think it should be important in this case because there is no requirement for players to go back to those zones except to experience them for the first, in which case flying kinda ruins that experience.



Well that surely depends on the nature of the reputations? I am fine with the requirements for BfA pathfinder. Hell they don't even require you to even be exalted (and I'd be 100% fine with that too). I think for this expansion there additional requirements that also would have made sense, like opening up all the extra flight paths.

The actual problem in BfA is that once again (as was with Legion and WoD) we really should have flying already. All the benefits of withholding flying have already been realised, keeping us stuck on the ground is now little more than an annoyance.

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Honestly, I am not seeing the analogy.

Flying is akin to the ability to skip raid trash (terrain and mobs en route to the quest), not to nerfing the boss (quest).

Please don't tell me that the Uldir raid experience is better for having to clear the Zul trash for the nth time. Or that if the game had a mechanism that allowed us to push a button to nuke that trash after 4 Zul clears that wouldn't be a good thing.

Reps could be fine IF they can be maxed ALSO via storyline questing. The moment you have to repeat 9000000 times the same WQ to fill the rep bars, for me it’s BAD game design.

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The

M+ is, if you thrive to do it on higher than +10 (which is where rewards cap in iLvl) but if you don't or you do raids then theres really no challenge for people. They just become trivial so why would there be any opness is skipping them?

I understand what you wanna say, but for me this analogy is a little “forced”. Differently from open world content, dungeons are not meant to be “skippable” (some of them already have clever shortcuts).

The moment you introduce even a ground mount, the purpose is to make people skip “things” and do what they want to do faster. Flying is simply an even faster way to skip things.

If you are fine with skipping contents in some way, skipping them faster should not be an issue.

[rohoz]

Reps could be fine IF they can be maxed ALSO via storyline questing. The moment you have to repeat 9000000 times the same WQ to fill the rep bars, for me it’s BAD game design.

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The
I understand what you wanna say, but for me this analogy is a little “forced”. Differently from open world content, dungeons are not meant to be “skippable” (some of them already have clever shortcuts).

The moment you introduce even a ground mount, the purpose is to make people skip “things” and do what they want to do faster. Flying is simply an even faster way to skip things.

If you are fine with skipping contents in some way, skipping them faster should not be an issue.

the open world isn't really meant to be skippable, which is why most of it isn't right now and for the forseeable future.

[Dipso]

Remove flying :O

[lappee]

I understand what you wanna say, but for me this analogy is a little “forced”. Differently from open world content, dungeons are not meant to be “skippable” (some of them already have clever shortcuts).

The moment you introduce even a ground mount, the purpose is to make people skip “things” and do what they want to do faster. Flying is simply an even faster way to skip things.

If you are fine with skipping contents in some way, skipping them faster should not be an issue.

Ever since Blizzard made the decision to add WQ's with rewards relevant to everyone and scaling they also decided that open world content isn't skippable either (since they have relevant rewards for everyone).

Ground mounts don't skip content, you still have to do the same content as with running. Flying on the other hand actually skips them.

[klaps_05]

The only thing that doesnt make much sense is having flying when 8.2 starts, but not being able to fly in the new Naga zones. I would prefer to either have flying everywhere once you get pathfinder or not at all.

[DonVadim]

But how are they going to timegate flying if it doesn't require any additional artifical checks ?
You can't farm additional days of subscription if you give people stuff for free.

[Axaion]

sure, and add a stamina bar to flying mounts so you cant be in the air for more than 37 seconds, after that it will auto-dismount you

seems like a good middle ground to me

[Raelbo]

You're still skipping that content.

Stop trying to play with semantics and focus on the actual point please. Flying over an area you have traversed on the ground multiple times before is not the same thing as never experiencing the terrain on the ground because you always had flying. It's completely unhelpful when you're talking about the former and the person you're talking with is talking about the latter.

But then we have the other side of it, why would we have to re-do other content?

We should never "have to" re-do any content. Period. We should re-do content that we enjoy re-doing. WoW by it's nature contains a lot of content that is designed to be repeatable, and that's perfectly fine as long as it remains enjoyable to do so. The point about flying is that enables us to repeat the content we do enjoy without having to repeat content that has become tedious.

Why not just give the rewards for doing Mythic raids or WQ's instantly once you've done it once.

Why not just avoid using false equivalences? There is no reward for flying over a bunch of terrain to get to where you need to be to start completing a quest objective. You still have to do the quest, kill the mobs etc. So by logic there is no precedent set by flying that would justify handing out free quest rewards/boss loot.

And same claim can be done to any content the game has to offer, yet you wouldn't like giving gear or gold to people just because they did content once.

No it can't because you're making a patently obvious false equivalence. As I said above, you don't get gold or gear from flying between two points on the map.

I didn't say "simply too OP" is a fact. It being OP is a fact though.

It's the way it read. But fair enough I'll accept your clarification that it's not you what you meant. Why that should matter given the second sentence though is a bit odd, because it validates my comment after all.

You cannot claim that "it [flying] is OP" as fact. That would be your opinion which you can try and substantiate with actual facts and an argument (which you haven't done).

Over-doing same content is a valid argument in every way but making ways to skip it is only short sighted and results in the next content being the same rather than actually improving on it.

You're strawmanning here. The argument is about flying, not about "making ways to skip" content. Flying may present a means of skipping certain elements of gameplay but that doesn't make it synonymous with "skipping content" in that you can just insert the latter where you're talking about the former. In essence flying is exactly the solution to "improving on it" that you're asking for because it allows the content that is well suited to replayability being repeated while removing the encumberance of other elements of the content (ie travel to quest location) that detract from the experience.

We had polls on the site in Cata that showed people being split on flying. I'd rather have flying thats actually comparable to other forms of travel rather than being the only usable option.

Even if I'm willing to accept your assertion about the existence and results of said polls, they would be pretty meaningless. For a poll to have any kind of actual statistical relevance you have to understand the nature of the sample and who it represents. I find it high unlikely that any polls taken on MMO-C are representative of the actual player viewpoint. Secondly, a poll taken a long time in a different context would likely have no relevance now. The game has changed and people have experienced different things, so their viewpoint would likely have been affected.

No, sorry, but what happened on the official forums when Blizzard announced "no flying on Draenor" gave a good insight into how the playerbase at large actually felt. The "debates" that went on before the decision were carried by a few individuals pushing their agenda. But the protest against no flying was massive. Suddenly the few voices trying to argue in favour of no flying could barely be seen amongst the mountains of protest. The proof is in the pudding though, Blizzard reverted their stance almost immediately. That says a lot.

And flying removes parts of that immersion, which one could argue lessens replayability.

Well then how about making the argument? Better yet, consider the converse argument, (which I have made in the following paragraph), that it improves replayability.

The flaw in your assertion is pretty much the same as Blizzard's. Immersion is not synonymous with fun or enjoyment. It can be, but it can also be opposite. Specifically in the case of land based travel, it starts out fun as you explore the terrain and get discover it's features, the atmosphere, its quirks and nuances. But once you become familiar with it, it starts to become less enticing and eventually just becomes tedious.

It might not be fun and entertaining to him. Whats to say other don't find X thing fun adn entertaining after they've done it once, should they have the option to skip X all together?

I feel like, once again, you're straying into false equivalence fallacy.

So terrain matters after all.

So after all that I have written your conclusion is that I prove you correct?. Seriously? You need to work on trying to understand other people's point of view instead of just trying to seek validation for your own insular viewpoint.

Yes terrain matters. It matters because it creates a sense of the world we're playing in. That doesn't mean it needs to be a tedious obstacle that we need to spend half our playtime trying to navigate.

And all this just confirms that Flying is OP. OP things have never been good for games, they make content meaningless.

No it doesn't confirm that flying is OP. What it does confirm is that flying has value. There is a massive distinction betweent the two.

I could just as well say "enable free gear vendor and be done with it". After all its just a hazzle to get that gear just so you can do the content you like.

Yes you could just as well say that just as I could say the world is a cube, the sky is green and coca cola is a bitter drink.

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Flying skips the content you want to skip (terrain, mobs on said terrain, and speed). Others may want to skip raids in the same fashion, skipping raids wouldn't do anything to other content just like Flying doesn't affect the mobs you kill for WQ's.

So you just ignored my question and tried again to push your false equivalence fallacy. Next...

[Xath]

And what basis do you have to make such a claim?


Oh but I have plenty of arguments Right here that you magically overlooked and now claim never existed.

If speed was required to get somewhere then having speed would be part of accessibility but there is no such thing in WoW that requires you to move at certain speed to get somewhere thus its not part of accessibility

Again none of your wall of words has anything to do with my argument and is you twisting it to attempt to claim that the color green is actually orange.

[Raelbo]

Reps could be fine IF they can be maxed ALSO via storyline questing. The moment you have to repeat 9000000 times the same WQ to fill the rep bars, for me it’s BAD game design.

While I agree with you, the rep requirement in BfA is hardly unreasonable in any way whatsoever. Most of the rep you need to get to revered is obtained from doing the storyline, and the remainder requires little more than a bit of patience and doing a few emissaries. Given that pathfinder already requires you to do 100 WQs, the rep requirement is almost guaranteed to be met. Given that we still don't have flying, I would argue that it would take a special effort to not manage to get to exalted with all the factions (let alone revered) by the time it would even be an issue.

I understand what you wanna say, but for me this analogy is a little “forced”.

Yeah he's using a false equivalence. The analogy is absurd. The fact that it seems to be his only trump card is telling in and of itself.

[shise]

Why is it so difficult, anyway?
It takes a month and a half of, 80% regular gameplay, to obtain it..

Just... play the game and you will naturally get it.... That´s what you pay for.. to play... the game... doh. I don´t get it really.

[Xath]

Storm peaks would indeed be more fine if there were threats for flying, sadly there isn't. Its just a zone where questing happens at places that are unreachable by ground mounts.

Flying is a cheat code to avoid 90% of outdoor content.

90% of the outdoor content does not matter a week after release. It will provide no meaningful upgrades or challenges. All it will do is slow down how quickly you can do your daily chores before doing the actual interesting part of the game. Aka not having flying heavily reduces accessibility for people who unlike you don't play 8 plus hours a day.

[rohoz]

90% of the outdoor content does not matter a week after release. It will provide no meaningful upgrades or challenges. All it will do is slow down how quickly you can do your daily chores before doing the actual interesting part of the game. Aka not having flying heavily reduces accessibility for people who unlike you don't play 8 plus hours a day.

takes 10 mins to do an emissary w/o flying

[Xath]

I think we should remove flying altogether for current expansion content.

However - the pathfinder requirement shouldn't exist for legacy content.

Go ahead and do that and watch subs absolutely crater for good.

[Raelbo]

But how are they going to timegate flying if it doesn't require any additional artifical checks ?
You can't farm additional days of subscription if you give people stuff for free.

Sigh. The old "they just want us to spend more time playing" argument again....

No, that's silly. You don't maximise subscriptions by frustrating your players. You maximise subscriptions by making the game fun and engaging. Sadly, Blizzard operate under the delusion that playing without flying is more fun and engaging. While I'd personally agree that they're likely correct in the context of a new expansion, we're far enough into the expansion now that continuing to withhold flying is just a deterrent to actually playing at all.

[Xath]

takes 10 mins to do an emissary w/o flying

Sure hon

10char

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Why is it so difficult, anyway?
It takes a month and a half of, 80% regular gameplay, to obtain it..

Just... play the game and you will naturally get it.... That´s what you pay for.. to play... the game... doh. I don´t get it really.

Because I can't flipping finish it pathfinder pt1 is done. Pathfinder pt2 is locked until people get fed up with their bs and unsub same as it was in legion.

[rohoz]

Sure hon

10char

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Because I can't flipping finish it pathfinder pt1 is done. Pathfinder pt2 is locked until people get fed up with their bs and unsub same as it was in legion.

Wish more people would just unsub and shut up, tbh. *shrug*

and no, p2 pathfinder will be unlocked when kul'tiras and zandalar are near totally irrelevant. So late 8.2 if not 8.3. Same time we'll move to another flightless, pristine, continent.

[vashe9]

You are welcome.

hahahaha yeah like everything posted on this forums, everything = opinions... thanks captain obvious.
Of course its only for me, thats a survey...

just one thing, are you one of these people craving for classic ? If yes, then I dont know what to say anymore

[Nedizzle]

Returning to this game after 10 years and leveling a new Hero from 1-120, i must say that pathfinder is straight up a waste of time and it also holds you back from actually starting to playing the game how it's ment to be. There are many guides on how to boost yourself in WoD and Legion, but it's impossible because of this achievement.

It is totally trivial to hold new players back, because every other player with this achievement will finish legion era in 2hours. why should i stay there for like 10hours?

You can have your achievement and mount for that, but i really don't care at all about this type of content. i was there when they released it and i already wasn't a friend of that, because it's has nothing to do with actually improving your gameplay. anyway, different story.