Shamans are perfectly viable.

[HCLM]

As far as Elemental is concerned, its problems are essentially the following:

1. The talent choices are rubbish. They make precious little difference to the gameplay, and the "utility" ones are not terribly utilised.
2. The general build is laughably simple. Flame/Earth Shock, Lava Burst and Lightning Bolt. Bloodlust is widely owned and CC is useless.
3. The spec is still too static, and promotes saving Earth Shock for when you need to move (thus doing something when forced).
4. The totem class identity that the shaman originally had has been removed, with its replacement essentially pointless throughout PvE.

So, to summarise then:

Elemental has boring talents that nobody spends much time bothering with, the spec has absolutely no skill-development or depth, moving encounters can be a real nuisance, and the identity that shamans used to have has been removed.

On the positive side, its DPS is no longer terrible... Assuming it's a generally static encounter, where you can just stand and cast with a bit of luck for your procs.

1. Except for you the 3 viable builds, one for heavy movement fights, and two different ST builds. This point is invalid.
2.Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights. Also SoP build requires a deep knowledge on the fights. AoE stun, Hex and Thunderstorm are useless? Also which spec is 'more complicated'. All specs are now 3 buttons + CD. Second invalid point.
3. Ele is a turret. Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?
4. Totem Mastery is the best PvE talent for raids. Also you have stun and slow totems. Are you even using them?

People who don't see the skill ceiling for playing ele are simply to bad to even spot them

[Pua]

@Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

Gotta love this community.

[rullarn]

@Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

Gotta love this community.

Sure, the class design is a problem.
Obviously to much changed when going from an artifact weapon -> Azerite, here is to hoping that 8.2 will fix some of that

But the question at hand in this thread is if they're viable or not.
And that is in my eyes a community perspective.
Players look at the top-performers, doing 17-> and up.
They see, Balance, Blood DK(Monk to some exctent), rogue, mage and havoc DH. Healers is a bit more a mixed bag, but Resto druid and mistweavers sure looks yummy.
And that's the meta.
It's the same with any game, a meta is derived, it gives player the perception that nothing else works. Or playing the meta equals some sort of automatic-win-scenario.

Could a lot of speccs do with a fix to make them more desired/viable, yes, absolutely.
Id say at the moment the healers category are doing the best (maybe except to resto shamans, all though I like to play with them).

I think it's a question of letting people see that you can perform.
I main guardian druid(thanks for vortex I guess), also have a warrior and monk.
I play m+ on them all up to 15 mostly as a tank.
But I've always loved feral, so come 8.1 I went feral in my "not playing mythics with the peeps"-time.
Getting turned down has become a regular thing, but whenever I do get invited, I perform, and the players I play with slowly shifts the perception.

Might be that changing the perception of the ones doing +10ish and up is harder, so join lower m+s and change them, as when they move up(which of course I hope they do, progress and all), they will remember "Oh yea, ele shaman packs a punch"

[Deleted]

@Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

Gotta love this community.

Nice assumption there...i have mained ele almost exclusively for 8 years (with the exception of WoD, because that was by far the worst the spec has even been - i quite liked WoDenh tho) and managed to experience virtually every aspect this game has to offer.

Class design complaints going into BfA is one of the biggest exaggerations i have ever seen. The notion that specs have somehow been ''hard'' and ''complex'' is laughable, since really only ferals, sub rogues and enh shamans, maybe Legion survival could have been considered complex, and that was more often than not a result of weird synergies with trinkets or other items (like enh shamans with spellpower weapons).

The developers have stated multiple times that they DON'T want specs to have too hard or complex rotations - they want you to pay attention to your surroundings, and that the proper management of movement and defensive skills should be the thing which separates players based on skill.

And yet, even with ALL the pruning and ''dumbing down'' many people still can't play their class properly.

People are hailing MoP as the epitome of class design, and yet the number 1 most popular demand at that time was to prune the classes. MoP is my favourite expansion for multiple reasons, but people conviniently don't mention the fact that it lost more then 3 million subs during it's span. TBH, bloated action bars have no place in 2019. game. Especially since the boss encounters have become more diverse and complex.

I stronly believe players don't actually want hard and complex - that's why Legion survival was called ''clunky'' (and bloated was the word i saw often). That is why many top players (and it is often mentioned in guides) take and recommend passive talents (so it does not bloat your rotation).

I also believe this whole BfA backclash was over 3 things: loss of artifacts (even tho it was known they won't make it to other expansion), item squish and Legion burnout.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I stronly believe players don't actually want hard and complex - that's what Legion survival was called ''clunky'' (and bloated was the word i saw often). That is why many top players (and it is often mentioned in guides) take and recommend passive talents (so it does not bloat your rotation).

From what I heard, the issue people had with Legion Survival is that the complexity felt artificial. There was no synergy, just a lot of plates to spin. That might technically be more complex, but it doesn't feel good to have spec mechanics tripping over each other rather than complimenting each other. Of course it didn't help that the damage wasn't really there to reward spinning all those plates.

[mkultra55]

Never once in this thread was MW said to be taxed or that MW does not have utility, ........

Holy crap how are you so obtuse? It's Shaman and Pally's that are being taxed. That's what I said. I was using Mistweavers as an example of why this tax is somewhat misguided. My initial responses which just pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility "kit" can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked.

You keep hinting that I'm being defensive when every answer you give screams that you're the one who's agitated.

Insults aren't necessary. - Infracted

[Ragnarocket]

Guys, I'm handing out a few small infractions before this gets worse. Keep the tone civil. Everyone is starting to sound a bit agitated in their tone as you argue your points.

Let's keep it friendly.

[High Function]

Holy crap how are you so obtuse? It's Shaman and Pally's that are being taxed. That's what I said. I was using Mistweavers as an example of why this tax is somewhat misguided. My initial responses which just pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility "kit" can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked.

You keep hinting that I'm being defensive when every answer you give screams that you're the one who's agitated.

It is very convenient you have yet to defend any of your stances that you have taken. I laid out clear things that you could easily have given hard facts on or proof and yet you point this out? I think your complaints would be better suited for the Monk Forums has you clearly have a problem with the worlds view on MW.

There you go again comparing MW and resto shaman by saying "Pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility 'Kit' can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked". To start, that is not factually correct post the 8.1 redo of High Tide and CBT combo, but I do not believe that you have even taken a peak at the numbers (yes you are right about tank healing, everyone knows that). I don't think anyone thinks Shamans or pallys are being taxed?? Each class brings uniqueness to raids, albeit hpals have been struggling as of late versus other healers, but I still don't think you are actually having a discussion here. For the 100th time, just because you say MW can do the same utility as a Shaman then say the throughput is far higher does not have ANYTHING to do with this topic of viability. If you want to have a MW versus Shaman discussion than start a new thread. I have time and time again supported MW as being the best mythic plus healer and obviously a fantastic raid heals, but given all of that it does NOT mean that shamans are not viable.

I am not the one who is agitated, I am just confused on your lack of response to everything I have told you. You are stuck on this idea that I have said MW don't have utility or that I somehow think that shamans utility is better than MW. I am not really sure where you are getting half of these ideas. If you go back to my first post that clearly shows how the shaman utility can be used on bosses that is NOT an attack on MW as you took it to be, but as pointing out to the POINT of this thread of shamans ARE viable. Shamans do not have a tax on them by having a good 'kit', it was purely a lack of spell power and as you can see through NUMBERS the post 8.1 buffs have greatly increased spread healing, AOE healing and ST healing.

[mkultra55]

It is very convenient you have yet to defend any of your stances that you have taken. I laid out clear things that you could easily have given hard facts on or proof and yet you point this out? I think your complaints would be better suited for the Monk Forums has you clearly have a problem with the worlds view on MW.

There you go again comparing MW and resto shaman by saying "Pointing out that much of the Resto Shammy Utility 'Kit' can be done by a Mistweaver that also brings far higher healing throughput especially on Tanks getting trucked". To start, that is not factually correct post the 8.1 redo of High Tide and CBT combo, but I do not believe that you have even taken a peak at the numbers (yes you are right about tank healing, everyone knows that). I don't think anyone thinks Shamans or pallys are being taxed??

The existence of a Utility Tax on Shaman and Pally's has been a point of discussion since launch. Just because you're unaware doesn't negate that fact.

I've looked at the numbers. Since the 8.1 changes Shaman are only really strong on the usual fights where the raid is stacked most of the time and even then they're not miles ahead. On the other hand the movement and non stacked fights have them dead last for the most part. I won't even talk about high key Mythic Plus where High Tide and CBT aren't going to help keep a Tank alive.

I am not the one who is agitated, I am just confused on your lack of response to everything I have told you. You are stuck on this idea that I have said MW don't have utility or that I somehow think that shamans utility is better than MW. I am not really sure where you are getting half of these ideas. If you go back to my first post that clearly shows how the shaman utility can be used on bosses that is NOT an attack on MW as you took it to be, but as pointing out to the POINT of this thread of shamans ARE viable. Shamans do not have a tax on them by having a good 'kit', it was purely a lack of spell power and as you can see through NUMBERS the post 8.1 buffs have greatly increased spread healing, AOE healing and ST healing.

/woosh I wish I hadn't used Mistweaver as an example because that seems to have really screwed you up.
The numbers certainly don't support your case btw...
Mythrax-
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...135&dataset=90
Fetid-
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...128&dataset=90
Zek-voz-
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...136&dataset=90
Taloc-
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...144&dataset=90
Mother-
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...141&dataset=90

Every healer is viable in Raids because you're part of a team. Some are just more viable across more types of encounters and Mythic Plus really puts a magnifying glass on the issues. I never feel weak on my Mistweaver no matter the content or what I'm asked to do. I can't say that about my Shammy. If you have a different experience more power to you.

[HCLM]

@Nalaadu and @HCLM - always good to see those who've not been playing very long, don't really get why class design is a problem, and don't grasp the wider concepts being presented in clearly written sentences.

Gotta love this community.

Always good to see a guy who is spending more time on forum than playing the game.

I am playing shaman and mage from Wotlk. And currentl iteration of shaman is far more complex and fun to play than any mage spec.

[Pua]

Nice assumption there...i have mained ele almost exclusively for 8 years (with the exception of WoD, because that was by far the worst the spec has even been - i quite liked WoDenh tho) and managed to experience virtually every aspect this game has to offer.

"Every aspect this game has to offer", eh?

When you started playing either at the very end of Wrath of the Lich King or start of Cataclysm, when the entire design aspect of the game was fundamentally altered due to the personnel change that happened after Ulduar was released? Ulduar, which was essentially the greatest PvE raid ever designed?

You are dramatically behind.

I'm not trying to insult you, I'm simply pointing out that you're talking about raid encounters and class design at a time when the likes of Scott Mercer and Tom Chilton had been replaced by people with very different approaches. For crying out loud, you started the game when the random group system had been created and caused a dramatically different approach to dungeoneering alone.

The Obsidian Sanctum by Mercer, for example, was extraordinary design that set up player choice in a raid encounter that scaled through four difficulties that didn't need LFR/Normal/Heroic and Mythic. And despite the problems with laughable death knight scaling, class design saw things like Arms warriors in PvP that could actually kill mages if they were good players who used the right talents.

You're free to believe whatever you want. Just take my word for it that you're nowhere near knowledgeable enough about how the game was designed prior to you starting. Essentially, the design teams were changed around early 2009 and the game has been fundamentally different since then.

And currentl iteration of shaman is far more complex and fun to play than any mage spec.

It's not complex.

At all.

Practically nothing is.

Depth has almost been entirely removed from class design where talent choices are meaningless, or PvE encounters where you get an in-game book telling you what to do.

[Mardux]

It's amazing that low post account flood in here to tell everyone shaman are fine.

Low post counts don't necessarily equate to inexperience. My post count is pretty low, but I've been playing since TBC and have been playing a shaman since mid-wrath.

[Pua]

Low post counts don't necessarily equate to inexperience.

Typically, they do.

The general community that now inhabits World of Warcraft is vastly different to the one that played the game pre-Cataclysm. As a result, you get commentary like that I received from people with absolutely no experience of a game that was dramatically different in its design intent.

Hence, and sadly, you end up with "corrections" from young players that don't understand how to logically assess anything. Like this comment, from @HCLM:

"Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights".

It's utterly missing the point that was made, despite the fact it was mentioned; namely, that the Elemental shaman isn't in control of instant casts when he has to move in an encounter, thus can be badly punished in a way that he can't do anything about.

But hey. Cast Frost Shock with its less than half of your spell power. Epic deeps.

And this approach continues. This comment, from the same poster (whose general grasp of how to write properly isn't great, making it clear that he's young), implies the same things:

"Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?"

You. Are. Losing. DPS. By. Doing. This.

And why?

Because holding off your Earth Shock or Lava Burst procs means that you're removing the chance of it happening again once you've completed it. This is particularly important if you take a talent such as Aftershock in order to help yourself with the movement that you, as a player, are not in control of.

So that's the world we now live in. Younger players, who've been at this game for a few years, are trying to tell those who've played the original versions what's going on from the fundamental design perspective and suggest, exclusively, that it's the players who are the problem. Their inability to fairly appreciate what's being argued, particularly if it's specific or nuanced, then prompts an ignorant block of poorly-thought gibberish that doesn't even grasp what the complaint literally is.

When this fact is accompanied by infractions, well... You start to appreciate why those who do understand your commentary just give up, and move on.

[HCLM]

Typically, they do.

The general community that now inhabits World of Warcraft is vastly different to the one that played the game pre-Cataclysm. As a result, you get commentary like that I received from people with absolutely no experience of a game that was dramatically different in its design intent.

Hence, and sadly, you end up with "corrections" from young players that don't understand how to logically assess anything. Like this comment, from @HCLM:

"Laughable simple but then you say Ele struggles on movement. The better shaman is the better he will do on these fights".

It's utterly missing the point that was made, despite the fact it was mentioned; namely, that the Elemental shaman isn't in control of instant casts when he has to move in an encounter, thus can be badly punished in a way that he can't do anything about.

But hey. Cast Frost Shock with its less than half of your spell power. Epic deeps.

And this approach continues. This comment, from the same poster (whose general grasp of how to write properly isn't great, making it clear that he's young), implies the same things:

"Saving Earth Shock and LvB procs for movement and not losing dps by doing it is something a good ele should be able to handle. Seems too hard for you?"

You. Are. Losing. DPS. By. Doing. This.

And why?

Because holding off your Earth Shock or Lava Burst procs means that you're removing the chance of it happening again once you've completed it. This is particularly important if you take a talent such as Aftershock in order to help yourself with the movement that you, as a player, are not in control of.

So that's the world we now live in. Younger players, who've been at this game for a few years, are trying to tell those who've played the original versions what's going on from the fundamental design perspective and suggest, exclusively, that it's the players who are the problem. Their inability to fairly appreciate what's being argued, particularly if it's specific or nuanced, then prompts an ignorant block of poorly-thought gibberish that doesn't even grasp what the complaint literally is.

When this fact is accompanied by infractions, well... You start to appreciate why those who do understand your commentary just give up, and move on.

No, you won't lose dps if you are doing it properly. That is why you don't use ES on 60MS. And that is why you don't use LvB if there is movement shortly. You can play around movement.

And from when the post counter on this forum, is equall to skill. Most people here who have 1k+ posts struggle on HC

Ele is currently the best ST and AoE range spec in the game. If you don't like how the rotation or talents look like it is only because you don't like them, it does not mean they are bad. Most of the Legion kids liked shaman only because they could spam FS and simulate a dot class which is no longer valid playstyle.

BTW. Method and Limit players on Streams are saying Ele will be at least good in the newt tier. But 1k posters here are most likely better than then at this game, right?

[Pua]

No, you won't lose dps if you are doing it properly. That is why you don't use ES on 60MS. And that is why you don't use LvB if there is movement shortly. You can play around movement.

Sigh.

Yes, what you're describing is a DPS loss for explanations I've already given you. The fact that you're not understanding clear English means, predictably, that this conversation is over.

Have fun at school tomorrow.

[HCLM]

Sigh.

Yes, what you're describing is a DPS loss for explanations I've already given you. The fact that you're not understanding clear English means, predictably, that this conversation is over.

Have fun at school tomorrow.

These explanations, or whatever you call it, are worthless. ES is not a proc, by delaying it you won't waste it as soon as you do not cap MS. Same goes for LvB if you get a proc 1-3s before movement there is huge chance you won't waste a proc. But that requires thinking. To sum this up, you're only proving my point that people with high post counter on this forum knows nothing about the game.

Have fun tomorrow at forum, I doubt you are do anything else in your life.

TYounger players, who've been at this game for a few years, are trying to tell those who've played the original versions what's going on

That is my favorite part of this forum. Most of the people, including you, are like "I am playing from Vanilla beta so I know better how this game should work, and what is good and what is not". Whereas, playing the game for a long period of time does not mean you know how to play it, but at least we can be sure that you're one of the top forum players.

[Deleted]

Sigh.

Yes, what you're describing is a DPS loss for explanations I've already given you. The fact that you're not understanding clear English means, predictably, that this conversation is over.

Have fun at school tomorrow.

I could barely read trough your elitist posts. Your attitude is borderline insufferable.

And sorry, but what the hell does you playing from Vanilla have to do with anything? WoW is a vastly different game now.

The fact that you continue to claim that delaying ES is a dps loss, even though HCM pointed out that twice that it is not (and he is right, that is why ES is 60 MS on 100 MS pool) leads me to believe that you are just projecting your, whatever the reason, dislike for the spec and can't rest untill everyone else shares the same opinion.


P.S. Posters like you are the reason why i didn't post on MMO. These forums are so toxic that General on WoW forums seems like a pleasant place.

Argue without insults, warnings were given already. ~ Infracted

[Jotaux]

You all are talking about whats a dps loss, or how to play around movement when you can just play another class and do more damage, heal more, bring more utility or whatever it is you want to do better. Theres a reason a lot of shamans have swapped classes and excelled. The class is like running a race with one leg, swap classes and all of a sudden you have two legs.

[HCLM]

You all are talking about whats a dps loss, or how to play around movement when you can just play another class and do more damage, heal more, bring more utility or whatever it is you want to do better. Theres a reason a lot of shamans have swapped classes and excelled. The class is like running a race with one leg, swap classes and all of a sudden you have two legs.

Please name the range dps class that deals more dmg, is more mobile, and bring more utility than ele shaman at the same time you're talking about.

[Pua]

I could barely read trough your elitist posts.

I get that. The education delivered to you and @HCLM must be difficult to take, hence the intent to just rub out the development of the original game that you're utterly ignorant toward.

It's fine. Play some Classic. That may help you to pick up a few of the things that you need to know before you can comment with some relevance.

Warnings were given - stop flaming others. ~ Infracted