What's wrong with designing zones around flying?

[Waltar]

Could just make it so, if you finish a zone you can fly in it and if you have warmode on you can't fly they just make to make it worth it like huge amounts of gold, exp and AP actual rewards from a vendor or something

[Swalload]

BC introduced flying mounts to WoW, and it was clear the expansion was designed with flying in mind. Whole areas were inaccessible without it. (Dungeons, raids, and dailies/resource areas)

Wrath also was designed around flying. This expansion had a whole zone that needed flying to complete.

Cata revamped the whole old world to be flying friendly. New zones were again designed around flying mounts, with numerous quests requiring flying.

Even MoP was largely designed with flying in mind. The wind serpent training grounds seemed designed for flying exclusively at the start.

Then WoD hit and the philosophy changed... but why? What was wrong with the old system? Why was pathfinder made a thing? Why not continue designing zones around flying so that it is needed? It is far too late to put flying back in the box, so why are they sticking to the outdated system of pathfinder and zones designed only for ground mounts for 3 expansions now?

I just don't see the logic...

We would run into this dilemma: If you put things made for flying and require players to do stuff or buy flying to unlock it, people will call this gating and be mad, if you give flying for free right off the bat it makes all ground content invalid and kills any form of WPvP.

Objectively speaking, the best thing to do is to delete flying. It's the only solution that has no flaw (other than hurting the feelings of people who want to do things quickly).

[Canderous1]

we have all these ways to make travel faster. flight whistles, gating is on a really short cd, items to teleport. i just don't see at this point what difference it makes if we can fly. maybe it hurts wpvp, can always disable flying in warmode and then, maybe only then, will i agree that the 30% bonus in warmode is warranted. me flying doesn't hurt world pvp, and overall i just don't see it as bad for the game because it makes a lot of players happy.

[SirCowdog]

Flying makes terrain worthless, flying makes mobs on said terrain worthless. Skipping content is rather universally considered bad (see more extreme example of free gear vendors). Flying kills PvP.

Flying is simply OP. It would be different was it comparable to ground mounts (like 60% flying used to be, you could skip content but at the cost of travel speed).

TBC Through MoP were all hurt by flying for the same reasons listed here, devs themselves have listed similar reasons for why flying was removed (and later just delayed).

And yes, the same things have been explained to you multiple times already and they are all facts (unlike your "facts"). So no, just because I say something doesn't make it a fact. What makes it a fact is that it can hold any argument you throw at it.

Flying simply reveals worthless, needless terrain for what it is. There's a difference.
Flying reveals bad mob AI and shallow quest design for what it is.
Skipping content that you have already done is not bad. Videogames have been allowing shortcuts and checkpoints almost since their inception.

Flying IS strong, yes. But that strength can be used to make the game more interesting. It would require Blizzard to be more creative with their design instead of churning out the same dross over and over. It would require them to revisit and reconsider travel through the game, and create terrain and content accordingly.

The problem is that you're stuck on the idea that the ground-exclusive design that Blizzard is currently using is the ONLY way to create the game, and so you make claims that what you're saying is factual. It sounds good to you because within that ground-centric design its true. But when you look outside the box everything you've been saying doesn't hold up as factual.

I don't know if it's because you never played WotLK or TBC when they were new, or what. But I'm sorry, you're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Flying is not the problem you seem to think. Weak, shallow, overly formulaic content design is.

[rohoz]

Flying simply reveals worthless, needless terrain for what it is. There's a difference.
Flying reveals bad mob AI and shallow quest design for what it is.
Skipping content that you have already done is not bad. Videogames have been allowing shortcuts and checkpoints almost since their inception.

Flying IS strong, yes. But that strength can be used to make the game more interesting. It would require Blizzard to be more creative with their design instead of churning out the same dross over and over. It would require them to revisit and reconsider travel through the game, and create terrain and content accordingly.

The problem is that you're stuck on the idea that the ground-exclusive design that Blizzard is currently using is the ONLY way to create the game, and so you make claims that what you're saying is factual. It sounds good to you because within that ground-centric design its true. But when you look outside the box everything you've been saying doesn't hold up as factual.

I don't know if it's because you never played WotLK or TBC when they were new, or what. But I'm sorry, you're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Flying is not the problem you seem to think. Weak, shallow, overly formulaic content design is.

there was literally never anything interesting about flight at any of its incarnations.

[Selah]

Because there is no good design for flying in WoW. As much as the team has grappled with it over the years and expansions, there's never been an iteration of flying that's generates more interaction or engagement with the game. It's just boring.

[SirCowdog]

We would run into this dilemma: If you put things made for flying and require players to do stuff or buy flying to unlock it, people will call this gating and be mad, if you give flying for free right off the bat it makes all ground content invalid and kills any form of WPvP.

Objectively speaking, the best thing to do is to delete flying. It's the only solution that has no flaw (other than hurting the feelings of people who want to do things quickly).

How can the gating on flying be any worse than it already is, though? You're saying people would complain about gating, when virtually any different system than pathfinder would be less gating. O_o

But you are correct. If Blizzard doesn't want to design a world with flying, they really should find the courage to remove it entirely from further content.

[Swalload]

How can the gating on flying be any worse than it already is, though? You're saying people would complain about gating, when virtually any different system than pathfinder would be less gating. O_o

But you are correct. If Blizzard doesn't want to design a world with flying, they really should find the courage to remove it entirely from further content.

What I meant was that if they put content that was only available with flying but not allow flying right away people would call it gating, but at least there would be a real use to flying mount. But if we have flying right away then all ground content is pretty much invalidated so that's not good either.

The only solid argument here is "the ground content is fucking shit and we want to get it over with asap with flying mount available right away".

Or the best option would be to make things in space or have a map with floating stuff like Nagrand but with actual content on said floating stuff to justify flying.

Basically what I'm saying is flying does nothing more than what we already are able to do but slightly faster, it needs to have content made specifically for it to justify people wanting it so bad because right now they only sound like spoiled brats.

[SirCowdog]

there was literally never anything interesting about flight at any of its incarnations.

If there was LITERALLY never anything interesting about it, then why do we keep having players asking for it, and making good arguments for it?

Your statement is flawed, and thus your point of view on the subject is likewise flawed.

Flying CAN be used to make the game more fun. YOU just don't like it.

Because there is no good design for flying in WoW. As much as the team has grappled with it over the years and expansions, there's never been an iteration of flying that's generates more interaction or engagement with the game. It's just boring.

Stormpeaks. Icecrown. Skettis. Ogri-La.

And these are VERY old areas. With today's technology and design advances, I'm certain we could do MUCH better.

For every person like you that says it's boring, there are just as many who say it's fun. The only thing hurting interaction or engagement with the game is Blizzard's shallow content design, NOT flying.

- - - Updated - - -

What I meant was that if they put content that was only available with flying but not allow flying right away people would call it gating, but at least there would be a real use to flying mount. But if we have flying right away then all ground content is pretty much invalidated so that's not good either.

That's not necessarily true. Only ground content that was accessible from the air, but had no consideration for the existence of flight. By that I mean that there are ways to handle flying, while being accessible from the ground. Anti-air mechanics such as flak canons, kaliri birds, ranged mobs or flying guards like we see above some TBC quest hubs. Indoor areas such as caves, buildings, or underground complexes like dungeons.

Flying only invalidates content if content is desinged stupidly.

The only solid argument here is "the ground content is fucking shit and we want to get it over with asap with flying mount available right away".

Or the best option would be to make things in space or have a map with floating stuff like Nagrand but with actual content on said floating stuff to justify flying.

Basically what I'm saying is flying does nothing more than what we already are able to do but slightly faster, it needs to have content made specifically for it to justify people wanting it so bad because right now they only sound like spoiled brats.

People are whining about the content because they're sick of shitty content. That doesn't make them brats; it just means their patience has been pressed to the limits. Remember we're now three expansions into the no-flying design formula. FOUR YEARS of being jerked around by Pathfinder, massive time-gating on everything, and irritating ratmaze terrai full of senseless packs of dazing mobs everywhere.

I freely admit that the basic mechanics of how ALL mounts work(specifically flying) need to be reviewed and updated. But that doesn't mean Blizzard can't still use flyingto good effect, even in its current form.

[Selah]

Stormpeaks. Icecrown. Skettis. Ogri-La.

And these are VERY old areas. With today's technology and design advances, I'm certain we could do MUCH better.

What exactly about these ideas made flying fun? What were you doing with flying that was engaging the game?

For every person like you that says it's boring, there are just as many who say it's fun. The only thing hurting interaction or engagement with the game is Blizzard's shallow content design, NOT flying.

What exactly are they saying is fun? The only argument I've heard from that group is that they want a way around the shallow content. Which does nothing but disengages the players from the world which only serves to hurt the design of the open world, the same one you're insisting is already badly damaged enough.

[Swalload]

If there was LITERALLY never anything interesting about it, then why do we keep having players asking for it, and making good arguments for it?

Your statement is flawed, and thus your point of view on the subject is likewise flawed.

Flying CAN be used to make the game more fun. YOU just don't like it.



Stormpeaks. Icecrown. Skettis. Ogri-La.

And these are VERY old areas. With today's technology and design advances, I'm certain we could do MUCH better.

For every person like you that says it's boring, there are just as many who say it's fun. The only thing hurting interaction or engagement with the game is Blizzard's shallow content design, NOT flying.

- - - Updated - - -



That's not necessarily true. Only ground content that was accessible from the air, but had no consideration for the existence of flight. By that I mean that there are ways to handle flying, while being accessible from the ground. Anti-air mechanics such as flak canons, kaliri birds, ranged mobs or flying guards like we see above some TBC quest hubs. Indoor areas such as caves, buildings, or underground complexes like dungeons.

Flying only invalidates content if content is desinged stupidly.



People are whining about the content because they're sick of shitty content. That doesn't make them brats; it just means their patience has been pressed to the limits. Remember we're now three expansions into this no-flying bullshit. FOUR YEARS of being jerked around by Pathfinder nonsensical, arbitrary flip-flopping when flight can be used and when it can't. Getting it then losing it, then getting and losing it again.

I freely admit that the basic mechanics of how ALL mounts work(specifically flying) need to be reviewed and updated. But that doesn't mean Blizzard can't still use flyingto good effect, even in its current form.

Yeah sure the content is shit. Make people do that content again but now with flying is not what I call fixing the issue. It's just a bandaid on an open wound getting infected. Instead of adding flying which doesn't fix the issue and instead adds the issue of making WPvP even worse is not a good idea. You have to fix the problem at the source, the source is WQs are annoying, we should never have to do them more than 2 or 3 times. After that we should move on to something else, regardless if we can fly or not. I,m just saying people are asking for the wrong thing, they want flying to make old content more bearable instead of asking for better content.

[SirCowdog]

I,m just saying people are asking for the wrong thing, they want flying to make old content more bearable instead of asking for better content.

Absolutely!



The idea is not to simply slap flying onto the existing shallow design. Having Pathfinder be more fairly implemented and executed is just a bandaid fix until something better can be done.

From my point of view, the entire discussion about flying being re-introduced into the design is only a first step towards better content with more depth.

[lappee]

Flying simply reveals worthless, needless terrain for what it is. There's a difference.
Flying reveals bad mob AI and shallow quest design for what it is.
Skipping content that you have already done is not bad. Videogames have been allowing shortcuts and checkpoints almost since their inception.

Flying IS strong, yes. But that strength can be used to make the game more interesting. It would require Blizzard to be more creative with their design instead of churning out the same dross over and over. It would require them to revisit and reconsider travel through the game, and create terrain and content accordingly.

The problem is that you're stuck on the idea that the ground-exclusive design that Blizzard is currently using is the ONLY way to create the game, and so you make claims that what you're saying is factual. It sounds good to you because within that ground-centric design its true. But when you look outside the box everything you've been saying doesn't hold up as factual.

I don't know if it's because you never played WotLK or TBC when they were new, or what. But I'm sorry, you're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Flying is not the problem you seem to think. Weak, shallow, overly formulaic content design is.

How come flying reveals worthless terrain?
Quest design or mob AI design wasn't designed for flying, it doesn't make it shallow. Thats literally the first I've heard of quest design being shallow, AI sure even the IE AI is pretty bad.
Skipping content that is relevant is bad and WQ's are, by Blizzards decision, always relevant. Just think if we could skip dungeons or raids because we've already done them. Our "checkpoint" is that we don't lose characters (aka progress) when we die, quest mobs, bosses etc. do reset though when you (or raid) die(s)

Yes, Blizzard could (and imo should) change flying and other travel forms to be more on par with each other to not create the same problem current flying does (being the only option, really).

Except I'm not stuck with the idea of ground-exclusive design, I'm "stuck" with not allowing current type of flying on content its not designed for and thats a big difference.

I played WotLK and TBC from the first day (well, in TBC's case it took me a week to get the physical copy) and flying wasn't a problem with the 60% speed. The higher speed however faced the same problems as it does today, it was simply too good in comparison to other forms of travel. It was even bigger problem back then because it created disparity between players. People with a lot of money could just fly through everything really quickly, which affected herb/ore markets as well, and hurt wPvP a lot.
Content design isn't a problem currently, flying design is. Re-do flying design and then content design needs to change.

[PrairieChicken]

I would say it was combination of old school philosophy (convenience = bad) and a decision to make the game slower.

[SirCowdog]

How come flying reveals worthless terrain?

Because if the terrain was interesting enough to interact with, we'd land and engage with it. If there was something there worth exploring or fighting, we would do so regardless of travel method.

The problem with the claim that terrain between objectives is "content" is that you would also have to get rid of every OTHER form of fast travel that also skips it: Teleports, hearths, the whistle, portals, summons, flight paths, etc. Because if you're going to claim that every single piece of terrain between objectives is so valuable that you can't fly over it, then you MUST also agree that other forms of travel invalidate it as well.

You can't have it both ways.

Furthermore, the argument that terrain between objectives is so valuable that flight ruins it doesn't hold up when you've done the content multiple times. How many times do we have to do it before the value has been exhausted and doesn't deserve to be seen again? This would be a non-issue if Blizzard was giving us flight as soon as we'd cleared the content the first time through. But that's not what they're doing. They're time-gating it long past when the content stopped being interesting or useful.

which is why so many people are asking for flight now rather than later. They've been there done that.

Quest design or mob AI design wasn't designed for flying, it doesn't make it shallow. Thats literally the first I've heard of quest design being shallow, AI sure even the IE AI is pretty bad.

Why is quest design shallow? "Go here, Click-X or Kill-X in a tiny radius." That's 99% of quests. Yes, it's shallow.

Mob AI and pathing is something I'm not sure how they can address well. almost every quest mob's AI in the open world is: "Run towards player with aggro, melee". But we know that there are more options than that. Blizzard has every single mob AI from every dungeon and raid for the past decade and a half to work with. They have Island AI to work with now too.

So why are we still just collecting bear arses and killing X bandits?

Yes, Blizzard could (and imo should) change flying and other travel forms to be more on par with each other to not create the same problem current flying does (being the only option, really).

Except I'm not stuck with the idea of ground-exclusive design, I'm "stuck" with not allowing current type of flying on content its not designed for and thats a big difference.

As I've said(I can't remember if it was here or in another thread): Dropping flight into the current shallow design WILL be harmful to that design. That's not the fault of flying, that's the fault of the weak design. But players should not be punished by withholding flight after they've already done everything the expansion has to offer so far. Flight can, and should, be released in sections as soon as players complete it. Delaying it until the end of the expansion serves no purpose but to stretch weak content.

As long as blizzard keeps following the same weak design philosophy, they will continue to have problems like this and player backlash. Maybe they WANT to put WoW on maintenance mode, I don't know. But what I DO know is if they want to increase player interest in the game, they MUST stop churning out the same tired formula for content. They HAVE to start innovating and getting creative. They need to start changing the pace and the environment.

Flight is just one small part of that. But it's one that a LOT of players want.

[lappee]

Because if the terrain was interesting enough to interact with, we'd land and engage with it. If there was something there worth exploring or fighting, we would do so regardless of travel method.

The problem with the claim that terrain between objectives is "content" is that you would also have to get rid of every OTHER form of fast travel that also skips it: Teleports, hearths, the whistle, portals, summons, flight paths, etc. Because if you're going to claim that every single piece of terrain between objectives is so valuable that you can't fly over it, then you MUST also agree that other forms of travel invalidate it as well.

You can't have it both ways.

Furthermore, the argument that terrain between objectives is so valuable that flight ruins it doesn't hold up when you've done the content multiple times. How many times do we have to do it before the value has been exhausted and doesn't deserve to be seen again? This would be a non-issue if Blizzard was giving us flight as soon as we'd cleared the content the first time through. But that's not what they're doing. They're time-gating it long past when the content stopped being interesting or useful.

which is why so many people are asking for flight now rather than later. They've been there done that.

I'd love to see you make terrain that is interesting enough to interact with after you've done it a bunch of times. Yeah, you're never going to do it. The first few run-trhoughs? sure, WoW already does that.

Other forms of travel invalidate it only to a certain degree, you make a decision to run back to FP (or whistle, if its not on cd) only to run from the next FP to the objective or run to the next objective directly. Flying would completely skip ~everything there is
Also the game was designed for those transportaition methods.

Over-doing content isn't a flying problem but rather WQ design problem and should be taken up with that team. If you feel like you're forced to do the same content every day for all eternity then that should be criticized and given feedback on rather than just asking for ways to skip it. One method could improve the game while other could encourage Blizzard to do the same mistakes.
Also should people ask for ways to skip raids and other type of content they've done multiple times?

Why is quest design shallow? "Go here, Click-X or Kill-X in a tiny radius." That's 99% of quests. Yes, it's shallow.

Mob AI and pathing is something I'm not sure how they can address well. almost every quest mob's AI in the open world is: "Run towards player with aggro, melee". But we know that there are more options than that. Blizzard has every single mob AI from every dungeon and raid for the past decade and a half to work with. They have Island AI to work with now too.

So why are we still just collecting bear arses and killing X bandits?

Sure, quest objectives can be rather shallow but then again I can't see it going any other way. Giving people mental gymnastix will just result into whines that the game is too hard. The lore etc. behind the quests is pretty good though.

Making better AI to quest mobs would certainly help but you would still be killing them, it wouldn't change the objectives of quests but how difficult it is to get them.

As I've said(I can't remember if it was here or in another thread): Dropping flight into the current shallow design WILL be harmful to that design. That's not the fault of flying, that's the fault of the weak design. But players should not be punished by withholding flight after they've already done everything the expansion has to offer so far. Flight can, and should, be released in sections as soon as players complete it. Delaying it until the end of the expansion serves no purpose but to stretch weak content.

As long as blizzard keeps following the same weak design philosophy, they will continue to have problems like this and player backlash. Maybe they WANT to put WoW on maintenance mode, I don't know. But what I DO know is if they want to increase player interest in the game, they MUST stop churning out the same tired formula for content. They HAVE to start innovating and getting creative. They need to start changing the pace and the environment.

Flight is just one small part of that. But it's one that a LOT of players want.

Dropping current flight to pretty much any design is harmful, flying is so superior to other forms of travel its just ridiculous. You would have to have air and land riddled with mobs that can daze or kill you to make flying not the best form of travel.

Flying isn't needed in any form or shape in current content, it would only speed things up. I'd agree with that if that content was relevant, but it is and by the looks of it will remain so.
The other question is why should people be able to do stuff considerably faster? Just because they did the content multiple times? What about other content that does the same?

As long as flying is designed the way it is, there will be problems everytime people ask for its implementation and people will ask for it because its ridiculously OP.

Blizzard tried to change up their design philosophy from doing X amount of content per week to doing ~as much content as you can, which causes problems with burnouts and content feeling "expired". The content itself hasn't really been a problem, sure theres some people who say it isn't good but that expectable when we have this many users playing the game.

[Barnabas]

Could just make it so, if you finish a zone you can fly in it and if you have warmode on you can't fly they just make to make it worth it like huge amounts of gold, exp and AP actual rewards from a vendor or something

Or you just have to fly to the pvp area? Nothing extra happens.

[Baconeggcheese]

Everything.gif

[stigz]

Literally any question you have about Blizzard's decision making process can 100% be answered by this: money.

[Deleted]

Remember how people priased the exploration of vanilla? how people had to run place to place, and exploring up to places like the top of ironforge was a real cool thing, how getting into mount hyjal and running around it was real cool?
flying ruins exploration. "see that place, just press W and you get there" instead of "see that mountain, lets see if we can climb it!"

flying also ruins terrain, there is no difference in navigation between a thick dark forest, a long rolling desert, a snowy mountainscape, and a murky marsh.
for ground players there is many things to do, follow paths, follow roads, cross bridges, walk around blockages and steep terrain.
flying?
press W.

Everything takes ages to do when there is no flying. And time is limiting factor for all of us.
Having more time for other things isnt a bad thing to wish for.