Remove Pathfinder for Flying

[WowIsDead64]

But then you have to do it anyway to get the rep you need for the required achievments for flying. Blizzard always wins.

No, there is big difference. I'm ready to struggle for some short period of time on the easiest class (Hunter, Rogue, Feral Druid may be?) and when all artificial gates, such as time gating, are nerfed or even removed, to have flying unlocked on all characters then. I.e. to have flying as soon, as I complete Pathfinder, as it should have been in a first place. I'm not ready to play such content in long term - for weeks, months, years.

[Deleted]

Stop wasting time, and lets sum it up:

Your opinion: Flying and Free Gear are equally bad, both shall be banned.

My opinion: Free Gear is much worse than Flying, I am for flying and against free gear.

We have different opinions and not gonna convince each other, which is perfectly normal.
Is that clear for you? What is the point of keep arguing when it is so clear?

Of course! Free gear affects every aspect of the game - world pve and pvp, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arena. Flying only affects world pve. Because with Warmode, it's would be easy to let world pvp being unaffected by flight be declaring Warmode being grounded only.

Flight is just convenience. Free gear would break character progression even more than WF/TF does now.

[ashblond]

Jumping from ground mounts to flying is actually bigger step than from flying to teleportation. Teleportation only lowers the time you need to do for traveling compared to flying but you both skip equal amount of content (as in all the terrain and mobs there).

You can have that opinion but its illogical and its fine, feelings often are illogical but thats why we have discussions about it (logical option are better in general over illogical ones)

I just wanted to understand why you want flying and see if we can actually find the reason for it (and if theres a better solution than flying). In your case it doesn't seem possible (or you just don't want) to find out.

Either way I hope you can see the fallacy in your logics of "Flying adds option" and "more options is good".

Me: I want flying, because flying is fun
You: What is your fun about flying?
Me: Exploration, professions, mounts.
You: No, that is not fun for you.

And everything you explained why flying is not OK, is YOUR opinion. You are using your opinion to explain why it is not fun for others.
So you decides what is fun for other people? At this point, you are just being ridiculous.

Oh, btw, there is no logic fallacy in "flying adds option"

[lappee]

Of course! Free gear affects every aspect of the game - world pve and pvp, dungeons, raids, battlegrounds, arena. Flying only affects world pve. Because with Warmode, it's would be easy to let world pvp being unaffected by flight be declaring Warmode being grounded only.

Flight is just convenience. Free gear would break character progression even more than WF/TF does now.

Free gear is just convenience, you don't have to spend time collecting it in order to do stuff you want to do. Sure it'll skip over content but thats something you'd want to skip anyways, and if you don't you can just not use it.

Because "more options is good" and "less time wasted" are good arguments.

- - - Updated - - -

Me: I want flying, because flying is fun
You: What is your fun about flying?
Me: Exploration, professions, mounts.
You: No, that is not fun for you.

And everything you explained why flying is not OK, is YOUR opinion. You are using your opinion to explain why it is not fun for others.
So you decides what is fun for other people? At this point, you are just being ridiculous.

Oh, btw, there is no logic fallacy in "flying adds option"

I never said those things with flying aren't fun for you, I only tried to find out why. I said you can do those things with ground mounts too (which is a fact) and then asked for a further explanation of why they're fun with flying mounts - to which you never answered.

All the things I've explained about what flying does are facts, what is opinion is that the effects are bad for the game. So I am using facts to let people decide for themselves if adding flying is good or not.

You've already directly lied twice about what I've said and on top of that changing the meaning of my replies. If you don't want a discussion about it then don't make threads but resulting is straight up lies isn't really going to help your case.

And the argument "flying adds option" still has the fallacy in it, just like adding instant teleportation wouldn't add an option but be the only option going forward (unless you really, really like to do things the slower way).

[vashe9]

This forum :

{Some thread}
blabla game is too easy, it's for filthy casuals blabla I want TRUE classic blabla... Pure vanilla pre nerf is what we want, harder = better... Omg the HP regen is off by 0.05 sec on the demo, classic is DOOMED, classic is for CASUALS

{Some other thread}
REMOVE PATHFINDER It's too hard to play without it (I get ganked if I turn on war mode!!!) OMG nerf blizzard just want money nerf nerf I just want to have 150 alts with 420 ilvl gear after 3 weeks


I hate this community. I get why blizzard doesn't know what to do, because even the players don't know what they want

[ashblond]

I never said those things with flying aren't fun for you, I only tried to find out why. I said you can do those things with ground mounts too (which is a fact) and then asked for a further explanation of why they're fun with flying mounts - to which you never answered.

All the things I've explained about what flying does are facts, what is opinion is that the effects are bad for the game. So I am using facts to let people decide for themselves if adding flying is good or not.

You've already directly lied twice about what I've said and on top of that changing the meaning of my replies. If you don't want a discussion about it then don't make threads but resulting is straight up lies isn't really going to help your case.

And the argument "flying adds option" still has the fallacy in it, just like adding instant teleportation wouldn't add an option but be the only option going forward (unless you really, really like to do things the slower way).

LOL. ok.

Despite I have explained again and again, you keep asking the same questions. What shall I do? lol

Ok, Flying mounts look better than ground mounts, Flying mounts travel faster than land mount, I can see the zone from the air from flying mount, etc.. There are so many reasons why people prefer flying mounts. And you really pretend you don't know these??? I don't know why you need any explanation for such obvious thing......

To sum it up again:
Me: Flying is fun and adds option
You: Flying is not fun and adds no option

Is that OK for you??? I don't know how I can be more clear for you, LOL

[WowIsDead64]

Even more simple. Content is OVERTUNED. Due to some reasons Blizzard want it to be more "challenging" and cater to Mythic Raid/+ guys, who always do content in +100500ilvl overgear and therefore just don't care, if they need to one-shot 10 mobs via one AOE or 100. And I'm just casual player. I want game to be relaxing and fun. If Blizzard can't provide such game, then I just don't play it. As simple, as that.

[lappee]

LOL. ok.

Despite I have explained again and again, you keep asking the same questions. What shall I do? lol

Ok, Flying mounts look better than ground mounts, Flying mounts travel faster than land mount, I can see the zone from the air from flying mount, etc.. There are so many reasons why people prefer flying mounts. And you really pretend you don't know these??? I don't know why you need any explanation for such obvious thing......

To sum it up again:
Me: Flying is fun and adds option
You: Flying is not fun and adds no option

Is that OK for you??? I don't know how I can be more clear for you, LOL

Except you hadn't explained it before.

You can use flying mounts just the same way as regular mounts (sure, I heard that one before and countered it the same way) aka you can see them all the time if you want. Why do you want to travel faster than current land mount? (yes, I want to hear you say the reason behind it. I want to get to the bottom of why you want flying). New perspective, great reason albeit we can do that to a point with FP's but its still good!.

There are many reasons why people want flying mounts, I don't know them all and I don't know which person wants it for which reason so I have to ask them. I'm not sure whats the problem with me asking the reasons for it though? it only promotes discussion. I want to know the reasons so we can discuss them even further.

Your sum up is again a lie, I never said flying isn't fun. You just assume it because I'm critically thinking your logic behind it.
And yes, it still doesn't add an option but becomes the only one (because it is so much more powerful than land mounts). Ok let's try yet another example so please answer me this: how many different options to travel is there from Tiragarde Keep to Echo Isle (both reside in Durotar)?

[rrayy]

I think flying should be like how it was originally designed for.. once you reach maximum level you can purchase it.. the guys dev team had it right during burning crusade and wrath if lich king... then when new teams came in they made pathfinder which wasn't a very good idea creating a time sink too large of a window... cause who wants to wait 6-11 months to have flying when during earlier expansions we were able to have it once we hit max level.. ok im done ranting.

Well of course you think that because it was handed to you for no effort. God forbid you actually have to make an effort to earn it. Pathfinder gets it right, they just need to shrink down the window between release and when you unlock it.

[lappee]

Even more simple. Content is OVERTUNED. Due to some reasons Blizzard want it to be more "challenging" and cater to Mythic Raid/+ guys, who always do content in +100500ilvl overgear and therefore just don't care, if they need to one-shot 10 mobs via one AOE or 100. And I'm just casual player. I want game to be relaxing and fun. If Blizzard can't provide such game, then I just don't play it. As simple, as that.

Can't really agree with outdoor content being overtuned. You might struggle with AoE pulls on a just dinged character with Antorus gear but that gear is mostly replaced within a day.

Other than that, good reason but it could be fixed in other ways than by adding flying. Should we give feedback to Blizzard so that the next content isn't as "overtuned" or should we just ask for a way to skip it only to find the same situation in next patch.

[deadman1]

If terrain doesn't matter then why have it at all? They could just make it so that everything spawns infront of you so you don't actually have to move.

Visuals? Why have more than one style of armor? Why have more than one type of mount?
Don't play stupid, it's intellectually dishonest.

If mobs don't matter and terrain doesn't matter then why are you asking for flying? If its the speed you could just ask for increase mount speed as well.

Even if you say "terrain should be meaningful" I ask ... why? Mobs are meaningless because they don't actually provide meaningful gameplay, they aren't compelling enemies and they don't have meaningful loot.


My point is you have no points, your only two arguments are subjective at best, meaningless at worst.
You're going to need to come up with objective facts on why no-flying is better. Other than the obvious player engagement statistics.

Why do you as a player and not someone who actually makes money on this game care if I can move around a bit faster?

I'm asking for objective facts, and I've never heard any from a single anti-flight person. It always comes down to petty bs and insults. Which again is quite ironic from people who can't come up with a single argument.

[vashe9]

Even more simple. Content is OVERTUNED. Due to some reasons Blizzard want it to be more "challenging" and cater to Mythic Raid/+ guys, who always do content in +100500ilvl overgear and therefore just don't care, if they need to one-shot 10 mobs via one AOE or 100. And I'm just casual player. I want game to be relaxing and fun. If Blizzard can't provide such game, then I just don't play it. As simple, as that.

MMORPG are not meant to be relaxing games like smartphone games, play something else we won't miss you... If you think wow is overtuned, you have a serious problem.

Outside of really high mm+ keys and mythic raids, the game is ultra easy. Everything can already be done without even using your brain.

Come on, after an afternoon of heroics in the release week, I was already "too powerful" for almost all world content and now that I'm sitting a 380ilvl+ like almost everyone, even elite WQ can be soloed quite easily....

My WQ experience is pretty much this : I aggro the whole camp, I cast some multishot, and my pet kills them all in 10 seconds... that's what you call overtuned ?!

[WowIsDead64]

Can't really agree with outdoor content being overtuned. You might struggle with AoE pulls on a just dinged character with Antorus gear but that gear is mostly replaced within a day.

Other than that, good reason but it could be fixed in other ways than by adding flying. Should we give feedback to Blizzard so that the next content isn't as "overtuned" or should we just ask for a way to skip it only to find the same situation in next patch.

Yeah, I don't see problems with ground content itself. For example I would never ask to add flying to 1-60 content, as it's good as it is. Problem is: we have been providing feedback to Blizzard since day one, when removal of flying was announced, and... guess what? They don't listen! They keep complete radio silence! There haven't been any comments from Blizzard about ground design since moment, when they released that article about so called "immersion", etc. No comments. No answers to counter-arguments, players provided. No signs, that they listen to feedback and ready to make changes. Nothing.

[ashblond]

Except you hadn't explained it before.

You can use flying mounts just the same way as regular mounts (sure, I heard that one before and countered it the same way) aka you can see them all the time if you want. Why do you want to travel faster than current land mount? (yes, I want to hear you say the reason behind it. I want to get to the bottom of why you want flying). New perspective, great reason albeit we can do that to a point with FP's but its still good!.

There are many reasons why people want flying mounts, I don't know them all and I don't know which person wants it for which reason so I have to ask them. I'm not sure whats the problem with me asking the reasons for it though? it only promotes discussion. I want to know the reasons so we can discuss them even further.

Your sum up is again a lie, I never said flying isn't fun. You just assume it because I'm critically thinking your logic behind it.
And yes, it still doesn't add an option but becomes the only one (because it is so much more powerful than land mounts). Ok let's try yet another example so please answer me this: how many different options to travel is there from Tiragarde Keep to Echo Isle (both reside in Durotar)?

Why do you want to travel faster than land mount? It is because I want to travel faster? because flying is faster than land mount? because flying mount gives more freedom than land mount? Is this a trolling questions???

How many travel options from tiragarde to echo isle? many options, for both horde and alliance. and?

[Dhrizzle]

If you find fun "soloing Mythic content for transmog, so I should have the options to do so". That is your opinion, which is fine. But I disagree "people shall be able to solo current mythic raid for fun".

If you think my analogy is terrible, it is fine. you are entitled your opinion. Everyone knows clothes and foods supply is not infinite in our society,

That is why your analogy is terrible - in reality we can't all take free clothes and food because there is a real limit on how much the producers can supply. In WoW that isn't the same, Blizz could give every single person every piece of gear and it won't affect their supplies one bit. In fact it is possible for players to buy a lot of the tier sets from WotLK and Cata for a negligible amount of gold, and to get raid gear with negligible effort from all the raids up to WoD (barring a few that were removed such as Naxx.)

I don't know why you even make this unrealistic assumption.

Because you forced the comaprison with your terrible analogy.

Because unlimited free gear is not realistic in wow, and it never was. You are propose us to arguing a non-existent situation.

It would be incredible easy for Blizz to give everyone unlimited free gear. In fact it is possible for players to buy a lot of the tier sets from WotLK and Cata for a negligible amount of gold, and to get raid gear with negligible effort from all the raids up to WoD (barring a few that were removed such as Naxx.)

If you think players shall have free gear vendor, because vendor can offer infinite free gear, that is your opinion, not mine.

Please read threads more carefully. First up several times I have said that a better situation to consider would be a buff or other system that makes it possible to easily solo Mythic content whilst it is current. This is something that does exist in WoW but it doesn't activate until the content is a couple of expansions old.

Secondly, I didn't say it should be implemented in the game. I said it was something I would enjoy and according to your logic shouldn't affect the game because Blizzard's ideas of pacing progression should come second to player's having a choice of how they tackle content.

That said the point is becoming moot since you've made it clear that flight being okay is just your opinion. There are several people who think their stance on flight is some sort of objective truth.

[rohoz]

Yeah, I don't see problems with ground content itself. For example I would never ask to add flying to 1-60 content, as it's good as it is. Problem is: we have been providing feedback to Blizzard since day one, when removal of flying was announced, and... guess what? They don't listen! They keep complete radio silence! There haven't been any comments from Blizzard about ground design since moment, when they released that article about so called "immersion", etc. No comments. No answers to counter-arguments, players provided. No signs, that they listen to feedback and ready to make changes. Nothing.

there's been plenty feedback, you just didn't like it so you dismissed it.
No flying until content is deemed irrelevant. You want them to participate in your incessant whine threads as a sign that they are "listening" ? lmao

[Dhrizzle]

Even more simple. Content is OVERTUNED. Due to some reasons Blizzard want it to be more "challenging" and cater to Mythic Raid/+ guys, who always do content in +100500ilvl overgear and therefore just don't care, if they need to one-shot 10 mobs via one AOE or 100. And I'm just casual player. I want game to be relaxing and fun. If Blizzard can't provide such game, then I just don't play it. As simple, as that.

As a casual who only gears through LFR, warfronts or anything queueable I can tell you the world content is not overtuned.

[ashblond]

That is why your analogy is terrible - in reality we can't all take free clothes and food because there is a real limit on how much the producers can supply. In WoW that isn't the same, Blizz could give every single person every piece of gear and it won't affect their supplies one bit. In fact it is possible for players to buy a lot of the tier sets from WotLK and Cata for a negligible amount of gold, and to get raid gear with negligible effort from all the raids up to WoD (barring a few that were removed such as Naxx.)



Because you forced the comaprison with your terrible analogy.



It would be incredible easy for Blizz to give everyone unlimited free gear. In fact it is possible for players to buy a lot of the tier sets from WotLK and Cata for a negligible amount of gold, and to get raid gear with negligible effort from all the raids up to WoD (barring a few that were removed such as Naxx.)



Please read threads more carefully. First up several times I have said that a better situation to consider would be a buff or other system that makes it possible to easily solo Mythic content whilst it is current. This is something that does exist in WoW but it doesn't activate until the content is a couple of expansions old.

Secondly, I didn't say it should be implemented in the game. I said it was something I would enjoy and according to your logic shouldn't affect the game because Blizzard's ideas of pacing progression should come second to player's having a choice of how they tackle content.

That said the point is becoming moot since you've made it clear that flight being okay is just your opinion. There are several people who think their stance on flight is some sort of objective truth.

Ok, this is your opinion. And yes, my opinion is flight being OK. If you disagree, it is your opinion and it is OK.

Of course there are other people think differently and disagree with me, which is totally fine. I have stated that many times, people are allowed to have different opinions.

[WowIsDead64]

there's been plenty feedback, you just didn't like it so you dismissed it.
No flying until content is deemed irrelevant. You want them to participate in your incessant whine threads as a sign that they are "listening" ? lmao

Then please prove it and provide link to post, where Blizzard answer to "If you want us to kill mobs in some order - just give us quests in that order, problem solved" or "World is immersive when see it first time only - after doing exactly the same stuff several times immersion turns into routine" or "Players need just a week to explore whole world". Or where is link to answer to tons of suggestions about alternative ways to implement flying? I don't see any.

[lappee]

Yeah, I don't see problems with ground content itself. For example I would never ask to add flying to 1-60 content, as it's good as it is. Problem is: we have been providing feedback to Blizzard since day one, when removal of flying was announced, and... guess what? They don't listen! They keep complete radio silence! There haven't been any comments from Blizzard about ground design since moment, when they released that article about so called "immersion", etc. No comments. No answers to counter-arguments, players provided. No signs, that they listen to feedback and ready to make changes. Nothing.

When removal of flying was announced they did listen to feedback and put it back into the game via pathfinder, but yeah there has been a huge lack of listening to feedback. Still even with that said I don't see how they suddenly would listen to this feedback either, you certainly could do both feedbacks via telling whats wrong with the content and then asking for flying if fixing the current content is too time consuming (I'd rather have them make new content better than use their time, at this point in time, to fix the old content. Ultimately both would be the best choice)

Visuals? Why have more than one style of armor? Why have more than one type of mount?
Don't play stupid, it's intellectually dishonest.

You could have the visuals change around you, it could work just like a teleport. Doesn't change the made point.

Even if you say "terrain should be meaningful" I ask ... why? Mobs are meaningless because they don't actually provide meaningful gameplay, they aren't compelling enemies and they don't have meaningful loot.


My point is you have no points, your only two arguments are subjective at best, meaningless at worst.
You're going to need to come up with objective facts on why no-flying is better. Other than the obvious player engagement statistics.

Why do you as a player and not someone who actually makes money on this game care if I can move around a bit faster?

I'm asking for objective facts, and I've never heard any from a single anti-flight person. It always comes down to petty bs and insults. Which again is quite ironic from people who can't come up with a single argument.

What I'm doing is finding why they want flying and trying to get them to understand those reasons themselves. I'm also showing them the facts of what flying does, whether they find it good or bad is up to them.

I care because I find flying to be bad for the game, it makes terrain and mobs irrelevant, parts of exploration (path finding) is removed, also the usual PvP reasons. And before you say "but you can just not use it" just read the teleportation or free gear arguments. Just because you have the illusion of option doesn't mean there actually is one.
Simple objective fact: game content was designed to be played from the ground, whether flying would be better is still everyones opinion and thus you can't really have an objective fact that says one is better (for the game).

Why do you want to travel faster than land mount? It is because I want to travel faster? because flying is faster than land mount? because flying mount gives more freedom than land mount? Is this a trolling questions???

How many travel options from tiragarde to echo isle? many options, for both horde and alliance. and?

There can be multiple reasons as to why people want to go faster, like in IRL some people want to feel the rush of going fast, some want to break records, some just want to save time. They all say they want to go faster but their reasons vary. I need your reason for wanting go for faster because I can't know it before you tell me. So please do so.
Flying mount does give more freedom, excellent!, but why do you want that freedom of going up (I assume thats what you meant, since otherwise ground mount works the same)?

Tiragarde keep (the one on Durotar) to Echo isles, how many different travel options are there? You can fly etc. but I want you to give me the number of options you can use.