and the govt shutdown still exists..

[PosPosPos]

So because it's bigger than the prototype, but made of the exact same material, it's now impenetrable huh?

Where do we sign up to piss our tax dollars away again? Clearly they've got my vote of confidence now after seeing this. /s

Hey - walls work in armed conflicts, so it must mean they work against sustained yet irregular attrition from desperate people seeking asylum.

[Felya]

Hey - walls work in armed conflicts, so it must mean they work against sustained yet irregular attrition from desperate people seeking asylum.

I thought this would be fun to do. Just put justification for the wall, into more places during Trump’s speech. Since he forgot to do it, I’ll fill the gaps with bold tags. The transcript:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/08/u...ranscript.html

This is a humanitarian crisis. A crisis of the heart, and a crisis of the soul. Last month, 20,000 migrant children were illegally brought into the United States, a dramatic increase. These children are used as human pawns by vicious coyotes and ruthless gangs. One in three women are sexually assaulted on the dangerous trek up through Mexico. Women and children are the biggest victims, by far, of our broken system. We need a wall to make sure those children do no reach safety, those women continue to be sexually assaulted. We cannot sit back and watch this, thus need a beautiful wall, so we don’t have to look at it.

This is the tragic reality of illegal immigration on our southern border. This is the cycle of human suffering that I am determined to end. My administration has presented Congress with a detailed proposal to secure the border and stop the criminal gangs, drug smugglers, and human traffickers. It’s a tremendous problem. A problem none of us want to look at, so we need a wall. If these children and assaulted women get to US and taste freedom, the sexual assault and trafficking will seem so much worse. Build a wall, lower expectations.

[kaid]

So because it's bigger than the prototype, but made of the exact same material, it's now impenetrable huh?

Where do we sign up to piss our tax dollars away again? Clearly they've got my vote of confidence now after seeing this. /s


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...wOreLHfbYRc5ds

Damn those terrorist immigrants with their home depot technology.

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Walls are only as effective as your ability to keep them manned. Thats why walls along the border in cities and towns work because you can actually patrol them often enough to keep them effective. A wall in the middle of the desert is only a mildly more challenging obstacle than the desert itself.

[Endus]

Damn those terrorist immigrants with their home depot technology.

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Walls are only as effective as your ability to keep them manned. Thats why walls along the border in cities and towns work because you can actually patrol them often enough to keep them effective. A wall in the middle of the desert is only a mildly more challenging obstacle than the desert itself.

Another way to put this is that barriers, like walls, don't prevent transit, they just add time to transit. It takes time to climb them, or go through them, or tunnel under, or go around.

Constant active surveillance means you can act against those individuals in that added time frame; that's the purpose of the wall. It slows them down enough for you to respond. Without constant active surveillance, the wall doesn't end up doing much of anything of value.

If you're having to patrol the wall, you're creating gaps that can be exploited; any breach that can occur between patrols can and will violate the wall's security. And with a border the size of the US-Mexico border, keeping patrols constant enough to prevent this stuff will be nearly impossible.

[Hilhen7]

Damn those terrorist immigrants with their home depot technology.

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Walls are only as effective as your ability to keep them manned. Thats why walls along the border in cities and towns work because you can actually patrol them often enough to keep them effective. A wall in the middle of the desert is only a mildly more challenging obstacle than the desert itself.

Exactly. It's about as useful as a prison with no guards.

I'm surprised that Trump hasn't suggested a minefield yet LOL

[kaid]

Exactly. It's about as useful as a prison with no guards.

I'm surprised that Trump hasn't suggested a minefield yet LOL

The scary thing is as dense and deadly a mine field as there exists between north and south korea still cannot prevent some amount of people passing. If people are desperate enough they will cross regardless.

[Powerogue]

So because it's bigger than the prototype, but made of the exact same material, it's now impenetrable huh?

Where do we sign up to piss our tax dollars away again? Clearly they've got my vote of confidence now after seeing this. /s

[MG]https://external-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCR3SU1VtXsJHiV&w=540&h=282&url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia3.s-nbcnews.com%2Fj%2Fnewscms%2F2019_02%2F2710971%2F190110-border-wall-steel-prototype-bugged-al-1025_a94294e20f94de9e58b58be2f7e5f48d.1200%3B630%3B7%3B70%3B5.jpg&cfs=1&upscale=1&fallback =news_d_placeholder_publisher&_nc_hash=AQA44JeqFteS65P[/IMG]
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/imm...wOreLHfbYRc5ds

And even if he made it 10,000 ft tall out of solid vibranium and lined with unicorn hair it still wouldn't stop all the people just overstaying their visas.

Exactly. It's about as useful as a prison with no guards.

I'm surprised that Trump hasn't suggested a minefield yet LOL

I'm sure the people on the golf course that Trump is putting on the Mexico side of the border, but belongs to the US, would have a field day with that.

[Ragedaug]

Apparently you're ok with giving American land to Mexico.

Second, you seem to think the entire American public should have the same level of Secret Service protection as Presidents. Because, right now that is your argument where it concerns Obama and his home.

Yeah, that's not how land ownership works. Just because I put the fence 10 feet into my yard doesn't my neighbor gets to claim those 10 feet of my land on the other side of the fence. Those 10 feet on the other side of my fence still belong to me.

For your second statement...nope. It's not only people protected by the Secret Service that live behind walls. I have family members that barely make what people call "a livable wage" who live in gated communities. They obviously think a barrier helps keep them safe. To that point, I would contend that there are a good number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum across all wage thresholds that live behind barriers.

Up until President Trump became president it wasn't a politically statement to believe a barrier (wall, fence, etc) helps keep unwanted people out of your area. It wasn't until Trump became president that Democrats (even those who still live behind walls) started believing that living behind a barrier was racist, oppressive, and it was absolutely ineffective in keeping that which you didn't want in, out.

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In that case why reply to what I said?

Also, here is the statement you are referring to.

"I always feel a little dumber after watching Adam Ruin Everything. So much propaganda, "alternate facts", and logical fallacies that when I try to process what he's saying, I have brain cells that decide it's easier just to give up."

The fact that you can not figure out that when GOP senators think the wall will cost B25 and there is a B5 payment it might not be the full amount suggests that this is not a topic you know a whole lot about.

I responded to what you said because you KathyNewmaned by post by completely butchering it with a "soooooo, you are saying...". You don't need to "so you are saying" when I just said exactly what I meant to say. Sooooo, I am saying what I already said...not what you said I said.

Trump continues requesting $5.6 Billion. Like over and over and over. His administration keeps saying "5.6B". So again, you, and Adam, and the "journalistic" website you linked are pulling the 25B out of your collective butts.

Trump is asking for 5.6B
The GOP lead house pushed a bill to give him 5B
The GOP lead senate pushed a bill to give him 1.8B

There is no 25B outside of the strawman that the DNC created. It the windmill to their Quixote. Have fun fighting it. I know I'm enjoying watching your LARP against invisible dragons.

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A few things... you are pretty much giving the land between Rio Grande and wall, to Mexico. The land isn’t even federal, like that golf course that is owned by the family living on the land. That’s like federal government taking her land and giving it to Mexico. With Rio Grande being on the other side of the wall, kind of fucking over America, as a land mass. Can you imagine giving Lake Erie to Canada, to defend the country? That’s what’s happening with Rio Grande.

Daggum it...why do I have to explain how land works?? You aren't giving away your land by putting a fence in the middle of it. You can put a fence where ever you want on the land. Near the edge, off the edge, through the middle. It doesn't matter. You aren't giving away the land on the other side of it. There's no legal precedence anywhere ever that a neighbor got to claim all the land up to your fence because you didn't put the fence directly on the border.

You could put the fence miles north of the Rio Grand. It wouldn't matter. The north access to the river and all the land north of the river continues to belong to the U.S.

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Another way to put this is that barriers, like walls, don't prevent transit, they just add time to transit. It takes time to climb them, or go through them, or tunnel under, or go around.

Constant active surveillance means you can act against those individuals in that added time frame; that's the purpose of the wall. It slows them down enough for you to respond. Without constant active surveillance, the wall doesn't end up doing much of anything of value.

If you're having to patrol the wall, you're creating gaps that can be exploited; any breach that can occur between patrols can and will violate the wall's security. And with a border the size of the US-Mexico border, keeping patrols constant enough to prevent this stuff will be nearly impossible.

Now imagine you are doing all that patrolling with the near impossible task of closing all the gaps people can illegally pass through without the benefit of a barrier that slows those people down you are trying to stop. The patrolling occurs with or without a barrier. What those who are patrolling the border are saying is "please help us".

[Santti]

Yeah, that's not how land ownership works. Just because I put the fence 10 feet into my yard doesn't my neighbor gets to claim those 10 feet of my land on the other side of the fence. Those 10 feet on the other side of my fence still belong to me.

For your second statement...nope. It's not only people protected by the Secret Service that live behind walls. I have family members that barely make what people call "a livable wage" who live in gated communities. They obviously think a barrier helps keep them safe. To that point, I would contend that there are a good number of Americans on both sides of the political spectrum across all wage thresholds that live behind barriers.

Up until President Trump became president it wasn't a politically statement to believe a barrier (wall, fence, etc) helps keep unwanted people out of your area. It wasn't until Trump became president that Democrats (even those who still live behind walls) started believing that living behind a barrier was racist, oppressive, and it was absolutely ineffective in keeping that which you didn't want in, out.

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I responded to what you said because you KathyNewmaned by post by completely butchering it with a "soooooo, you are saying...". You don't need to "so you are saying" when I just said exactly what I meant to say. Sooooo, I am saying what I already said...not what you said I said.

Trump continues requesting $5.6 Billion. Like over and over and over. His administration keeps saying "5.6B". So again, you, and Adam, and the "journalistic" website you linked are pulling the 25B out of your collective butts.

Trump is asking for 5.6B
The GOP lead house pushed a bill to give him 5B
The GOP lead senate pushed a bill to give him 1.8B

There is no 25B outside of the strawman that the DNC created. It the windmill to their Quixote. Have fun fighting it. I know I'm enjoying watching your LARP against invisible dragons.

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Daggum it...why do I have to explain how land works?? You aren't giving away your land by putting a fence in the middle of it. You can put a fence where ever you want on the land. Near the edge, off the edge, through the middle. It doesn't matter. You aren't giving away the land on the other side of it. There's no legal precedence anywhere ever that a neighbor got to claim all the land up to your fence because you didn't put the fence directly on the border.

You could put the fence miles north of the Rio Grand. It wouldn't matter. The north access to the river and all the land north of the river continues to belong to the U.S.

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Now imagine you are doing all that patrolling with the near impossible task of closing all the gaps people can illegally pass through without the benefit of a barrier that slows those people down you are trying to stop. The patrolling occurs with or without a barrier. What those who are patrolling the border are saying is "please help us".

Are you... Are you equating the border wall with wall/fence around people's homes?

[yetgdhfgh]

The longer this carries on the more ICE and Border patrol staff will start to review there job career.

I certainly wouldnt want a job that can be held to hostage and your pay froze cause of politics and if i was them i would start to go and look into the private sector or most likely they will turn to local state police jobs that seem much safer wages wise.

Then all those job openings for border patrol and ICE well nobody will touch them jobs for any price and then they will have to ask illegal immigrants if they want to fill them LOL Oh the irony.

[Redwyrm]

Yeah, that's not how land ownership works. Just because I put the fence 10 feet into my yard doesn't my neighbor gets to claim those 10 feet of my land on the other side of the fence. Those 10 feet on the other side of my fence still belong to me.

The border wall becomes the new border line, it's not that difficult to understand. Going to your analogy, if you have a fence ten feet into your property, are you still maintaining the ten feet now on the other side of the fence (mowing, fertilizing, etc)? Or is you neighbor? You may still "own" the land, but you gave up responsibility for it by cutting it off with a barrier.

If we surrender land by putting a wall a mile from the actual border, but still have to maintain security of that land then what is the point of the wall being where it is? We just made our jobs more difficult. So now, we not only have to patrol the entirety of the wall, we have to patrol the no mans land that is created between the wall and the border.

So that leaves two options:

1) that land is now not part of the US because it is too costly and inconvenient to maintain security, or

2) that land is still important and needs to be secure. But that is now more difficult because it is now easier for "the invading horde" to be on that side of the wall than it is for us to be. Congratulations, you would suck during a zombie apocalypse.

[Ragedaug]

Are you... Are you equating the border wall with wall/fence around people's homes?

Nope. I am equating a barrier on the border with barriers around people's home. I don't know of anyone currently who's pushing for a border wall, so I'm not arguing for a wall. (though truth be told, I've never been a "wall" guy. I've always been preferential to the term "barrier" over the term "wall". A wall is pretty specific. a barrier can take on many forms and would, depending on the environment where it's being installed)

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The border wall becomes the new border line, it's not that difficult to understand. Going to your analogy, if you have a fence ten feet into your property, are you still maintaining the ten feet now on the other side of the fence (mowing, fertilizing, etc)? Or is you neighbor? You may still "own" the land, but you gave up responsibility for it by cutting it off with a barrier.

If we surrender land by putting a wall a mile from the actual border, but still have to maintain security of that land then what is the point of the wall being where it is? We just made our jobs more difficult. So now, we not only have to patrol the entirety of the wall, we have to patrol the no mans land that is created between the wall and the border.

So that leaves two options:

1) that land is now not part of the US because it is too costly and inconvenient to maintain security, or

2) that land is still important and needs to be secure. But that is now more difficult because it is now easier for "the invading horde" to be on that side of the wall than it is for us to be. Congratulations, you would suck during a zombie apocalypse.

yeah..no...first, no one building a wall. Trump's talking steel slats now. 2nd, we have barriers literally all over the place in the U.S. like millions of miles of walls & fences of one type or another. And a statistical 0% of those barriers define the U.S. border. You build a barrier to keep things in or out, not to define your border. A barrier 1 mile north of border is just as effective as a barrier right on the property line.

And whether or not your maintain your lawn that's on the other side of the fence, doesn't determine who the land belongs to. You don't get to go to the city/county zoning office and get them to change the property lines to give more land to you by showing them a video of you mowing the lawn. That's not how any of this works.

[Kiri]

I responded to what you said because you KathyNewmaned by post by completely butchering it with a "soooooo, you are saying...". You don't need to "so you are saying" when I just said exactly what I meant to say. Sooooo, I am saying what I already said...not what you said I said.

Trump continues requesting $5.6 Billion. Like over and over and over. His administration keeps saying "5.6B". So again, you, and Adam, and the "journalistic" website you linked are pulling the 25B out of your collective butts.

Trump is asking for 5.6B
The GOP lead house pushed a bill to give him 5B
The GOP lead senate pushed a bill to give him 1.8B

There is no 25B outside of the strawman that the DNC created. It the windmill to their Quixote. Have fun fighting it. I know I'm enjoying watching your LARP against invisible dragons.

It would be a strawman if they had just asked for border security money and Democrats, out of nowhere, suggested he would try to use that for a 25B wall no one had ever heard of.
However, in this case, Trump has asked for 5.6B specifically for building his wall along the border. That means with that money, he wants to start building a wall. A wall that is estimated to cost 25B, but even if you do not believe the experts saying that, it should be easy to see that 5B will not cover building, maintaining and manning the wall for years. As such, it is clearly just a down payment and that they will ask for more money later. As such, it simply is not a strawman - it is clear that this is just what the wants now, not what he wants in total. And history has shown that it is much easier to ask for money to maintain an operation/construction already in progress than the money to start it, due to sunk cost. Assuming that a project will overall cost, well, its overall cost is not a strawman, it is just common sense. Assuming that Trump will only ever ask for the initial payment to start building it and never for more, presumably just leaving a half-finished wall in the desert, is much more absurd.

[Crispin]

Nope. I am equating a barrier on the border with barriers around people's home. I don't know of anyone currently who's pushing for a border wall, so I'm not arguing for a wall. (though truth be told, I've never been a "wall" guy. I've always been preferential to the term "barrier" over the term "wall". A wall is pretty specific. a barrier can take on many forms and would, depending on the environment where it's being installed)

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yeah..no...first, no one building a wall. Trump's talking steel slats now. 2nd, we have barriers literally all over the place in the U.S. like millions of miles of walls & fences of one type or another. And a statistical 0% of those barriers define the U.S. border. You build a barrier to keep things in or out, not to define your border. A barrier 1 mile north of border is just as effective as a barrier right on the property line.

And whether or not your maintain your lawn that's on the other side of the fence, doesn't determine who the land belongs to. You don't get to go to the city/county zoning office and get them to change the property lines to give more land to you by showing them a video of you mowing the lawn. That's not how any of this works.

If that piece of US land isnt guarded, the migrants would litteraly just have to show up on it, and ask for asylum. Grats you've created meeting points for asylum seekers.

[Ragedaug]

If that piece of US land isnt guarded, the migrants would litteraly just have to show up on it, and ask for asylum. Grats you've created meeting points for asylum seekers.

They could ask for asylum from literally anywhere. Also, the land not being behind the fence doesn't mean the land isn't guarded, unless you are saying the entire U.S. isn't guarded because it's not all behind a wall?

[Crispin]

They could ask for asylum from literally anywhere. Also, the land not being behind the fence doesn't mean the land isn't guarded, unless you are saying the entire U.S. isn't guarded because it's not all behind a wall?

So you're saying you can guard your land without a wall/barrier?

[s_bushido]

They could ask for asylum from literally anywhere.

Except that in order to seek asylum, they have to be on US soil.

Also, the land not being behind the fence doesn't mean the land isn't guarded, unless you are saying the entire U.S. isn't guarded because it's not all behind a wall?

Congratulations on pointing out exactly why this wall nonsense is nonsense.

[Najnaj]

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I responded to what you said because you KathyNewmaned by post by completely butchering it with a "soooooo, you are saying...". You don't need to "so you are saying" when I just said exactly what I meant to say. Sooooo, I am saying what I already said...not what you said I said.

Trump continues requesting $5.6 Billion. Like over and over and over. His administration keeps saying "5.6B". So again, you, and Adam, and the "journalistic" website you linked are pulling the 25B out of your collective butts.

Trump is asking for 5.6B
The GOP lead house pushed a bill to give him 5B
The GOP lead senate pushed a bill to give him 1.8B

There is no 25B outside of the strawman that the DNC created. It the windmill to their Quixote. Have fun fighting it. I know I'm enjoying watching your LARP against invisible dragons.

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SO you changed the topic and I am strawmanning...lol. Someone has been doing a little too much arguing on the internet.

Also, noone is thinking the wall will cost B5, not even Trump.

"Here are some relevant projections, as chronicled by news publication Quartz.

In July 2016, Bernstein Research, a firm that analyzes material costs, put the price tag at $15 billion to $25 billion, for a wall that stretches 1,000 miles and is 40 feet high, which was Trump’s initial desired height.

In January 2017, Senate majority leader Mitch McConnell said the wall’s cost would be $12 billion to $15 billion.

In February 2017, a leaked report from the Department of Homeland Security put it much higher, at $21.6 billion.

In April 2017, the Democratic staff report cited the nearly $70 billion cost.

During his campaign, Trump initially said he could build a wall for $4 billion and later estimated $6 billion to $7 billion. In April 2017, he put it at $10 billion or less."

https://www.politifact.com/californi...ut-cost-trump/

[Redwyrm]

Except that in order to seek asylum, they have to be on US soil.



Congratulations on pointing out exactly why this wall nonsense is nonsense.

Ding Ding Ding

What's the point of a wall if you STILL have to guard and patrol the land outside of the border wall like you do today. And if all you need to do is patrol the wall itself then you are effectively retreating and giving away land. You could do both but then why build the wall. It's not the wall that keeps people out, it's people patrolling the border. Hire more border guards, increase spending on sensor technology/drones and save yourself billions of dollars from being wasted.

And your (Ragedaug) analogy to private community walls and fences being the same doesn't work. Those walls don't keep people out either. They are a deterrent to prevent crimes such as theft. I can easily get into any walled community/property. What's difficult is carrying a 65" flatscreen over that wall.

[melodramocracy]

cause we have an overgrown child running the country as Commander in chief.
So many people not getting paid...mortgages not getting paid. People might lose their homes etc.

and now Trump administration officials are trying to get a pay raise while the thousands of govt employees that work there , are getting shafted.

How can this man still have supporters when he is f:ing up the country simply because he wants billions for a wall that can easily be dug under?

Republicans have had years of majority in which they could have pushed for a wall to be built, and simply didn't see it as a hot topic until now. The thing is, DJT doesn't want a wall so much as he wants a memorial to himself that has some significance. That's really all this is about, and that's why he's so indignant about getting it done now.

Frankly, he should never get a dime for it, because he campaigned on it being funded by another country (and no, Mildred... you saving money doesn't mean someone else is paying for the thing you bought). If he was clever, he'd simply push for the funding to come out of current military budget.