More Sylvanas BS [8.1.5 spoilers]

[BTHSE]

i know but people keep rehashing it as if genn should just uphold some non existant peace treaty (there really wasnt any) and just say kumbaya. I mean this one time an alliance guy actually gets the spine to take the first strike and the weeping has been insane.

he went against orders, but technically as far as the alliance is concerned he isnt really beholden to anduin in the sense a general is beholden to the warchief. genn is a king himself and while anduin is high king (military commander) alliance states join in support not in oaths. e.g tyrande at darkshore vs anduin. she outright tells him to shove it and goes.

You're not arguing against the point. You are making it. If Anduin lacked the authority to sanction Genn for going against direct orders then Anduin lacks the authority to make peace talks between the Horde and Alliance since he cannot enforce it because, as you stated yourself, other Alliance leaders wouldn't be beholden to it. Genn attacked the Horde and faced zero consequences despite the High King's orders, therefore the Horde was justified in refusing peacetalks with a High King that cannot enforce his own orders.

[Combatbutler]

Not precisely. Everyone must know she raised Alliance soldiers, or plagued Gilneas against orders. It's just that she never really suffered any grief for it within the Horde, for I assume the same reasons she suffered no grief for Teldrassil and Lordaeron; being called out by reasonable people ruins the bad guy fantasy that Blizzard has going with the Forsaken. So it's more that the narrative didn't let us suffer consequences, just like it let Genn himself off the hook until Blizzard needed an argument in favor of the faction war. I guarantee you that, had BfA not been a war focused xpack, nobody would even know what Stormheim is right now.

That's the thing we gotta remember, Blizzard only incorporates narrative elements that fits the story they want to tell. Elements that make sense but don't fit the story are summarily ignored.

Garrosh did not forbid sylvanas from raising new forsaken, he did not want the blight to be used and specifically set a watchdog on her, his problem was said watchdog liked what the forsaken were doing and ignored the shenanigans.

And of course most of the stuff is narrative driven, it still doesn't change the modus operandi of the factions. Sylvanas would have been in a lot of trouble if Garrosh had found out about it, that much is certain he did hate her guts after all.

[Raetary]

No the ALLIANCE started it in stormheim

no one started anything in stormheim.

genn was a moron for attacking sure, but no war was declared whatsoever.
the war started with sylvanas and the horde marching onto teldrassil.

[Mardux]

So Sylvanas finds something she could use against the alliance later on, and the alliance destroys it to protect themselves.

Stormheim justified then, and basically shows that the horde was trying something.

Hypocrisy aside, i find it quite amusing that you'd think the Alliance actually would use it against the horde, given that we had Varian followed shortly after by Wonder Boy on the throne.

You claim that horde started the war with Ashran shit and how it "technically" never ended (while ignoring the ceasefire and alliance against the Burning Legion). Then defend it by quoting an article that clearly says the Alliance were looking to use Titan level power with military purposes against the Horde and Horde wanted to defend themselves by getting it first.

Yet you still think Horde started it? And people talk about Horde fanbois and their gymnastics. You're on some next level shit. Lol

[Minikin]

That is because Anduin chooses again not to punish them, despite having the ability to do so, just as Varian did not punish jaina for her actions. Because they understand their actions.

what could anduin punish him with? he is with anduin as advisor cuz he was there before with varian but his people were with the night elves, who didnt really ask the alliance if they could give them refuge, they just did.

The only person on that ship that anduin had all authority and capability to punish was Rodgers. But people wont mention that because reasons.

[Combatbutler]

what could anduin punish him with? he is with anduin as advisor cuz he was there before with varian but his people were with the night elves, who didnt really ask the alliance if they could give them refuge, they just did.

The only person on that ship that anduin had all authority and capability to punish was Rodgers. But people wont mention that because reasons.

House arrest for example, anything to show hey look here I take action if my subordinates get out of line. Just to preserve the image of a strong leader, but he did not and as such his authority can be easily called into question. Basic politics really.

[Jastall]

Garrosh did not forbid sylvanas from raising new forsaken, he did not want the blight to be used and specifically set a watchdog on her, his problem was said watchdog liked what the forsaken were doing and ignored the shenanigans.

And of course most of the stuff is narrative driven, it still doesn't change the modus operandi of the factions. Sylvanas would have been in a lot of trouble if Garrosh had found out about it, that much is certain he did hate her guts after all.

And that he doesn't learn of the Blight is a narrative contrivance. Did he get no reports from the front at all? Cromush was supposed to be loyal but just ignored a direct order from a Warchief who was uniquely unamused with being disobeyed, just because he liked the cut of the zombie's jibe? It's not like the Forsaken were subtle about it, they try to cover the whole city in the damn thing. It's the same sort of contrivance that makes Cenarius and the Vindicaar MIA in the opening salvos of BfA.

Regardless of all this, the Horde not looking kindly on Genn not being sanctioned makes sense anyway, as it is natural they would expect the High King, their Warchief analogue, to punish disobedience as they would. How the Alliance works in practice is not that relevant to the issue, I feel.

Now, as to whenever Stormheim is reason enough for war a year after the fact when the Horde clearly isn't prepared to face the full might of the Alliance, that's another topic entirely, but I agree with you that the Horde being angry at Genn is 100% justified in-story.

[Minikin]

You're not arguing against the point. You are making it. If Anduin lacked the authority to sanction Genn for going against direct orders then Anduin lacks the authority to make peace talks between the Horde and Alliance since he cannot enforce it because, as you stated yourself, other Alliance leaders wouldn't be beholden to it. Genn attacked the Horde and faced zero consequences despite the High King's orders, therefore the Horde was justified in refusing peacetalks with a High King that cannot enforce his own orders.

my point isnt about anduins incompetence, thats a whole can of worms man, we have a 10000 year old night elf, a space travelling priest blessed with prophetic visions, a wolf dude who can shapeshift and has seen more wars, a council of dwarves with more experience, yet somehow golden boy is high king. my point is the general circle of "genn started it in stormhiem". like people dont get that there was no "legion is attacking lets stop", and both the commanders on that airship had ample reason to fill sylvanas with buckshot then blow it up, due to gilneas and stormhiem.

its like the constant, but taurajo! whenever theramore comes up. while southshore, astrannar in cata, and stonetalon occured. even when the tauren chief himself admitted the military characteristic of taurajo.

mind you this is not against @Combatbulter . i know he knows the lore and story. its the other posters who are glimmered by faction bias.

[Ramz]

That's the thing, it didn't happen. They were pretty civil. Both characters managed to maintain dignity.

Yeah but in that dialogue Talanji didn't off Sylvanas. She said they're equals and that she won't kneel to her.

[Super Dickmann]

Yeah but in that dialogue Talanji didn't off Sylvanas. She said they're equals and that she won't kneel to her.

Well, yes, that's my point. The way the poster I replied to was saying, you would think the two are negative towards one another, but they're largely civil. Sylvanas is surprised, but acquiesces to Talanji's claim and Talanji turns Bwonsamdi's offer down in terms of offing Sylvanas.

[Combatbutler]

And that he doesn't learn of the Blight is a narrative contrivance. Did he get no reports from the front at all? Cromush was supposed to be loyal but just ignored a direct order from a Warchief who was uniquely unamused with being disobeyed, just because he liked the cut of the zombie's jibe? It's not like the Forsaken were subtle about it, they try to cover the whole city in the damn thing. It's the same sort of contrivance that makes Cenarius and the Vindicaar MIA in the opening salvos of BfA.

Cromush was simply ignorant of most things, the forsaken were after all allowed to use a weaker strain of the blight and for an orc both things would look quite similar to begin with

Now, as to whenever Stormheim is reason enough for war a year after the fact when the Horde clearly isn't prepared to face the full might of the Alliance, that's another topic entirely, but I agree with you that the Horde being angry at Genn is 100% justified in-story.

That is the thing they wanted a war with a hostage situation, in order to avoid all out war and chip away at the enemy piece by piece. But Screecher as usually decided to be a drama queen.

[Minikin]

House arrest for example, anything to show hey look here I take action if my subordinates get out of line. Just to preserve the image of a strong leader, but he did not and as such his authority can be easily called into question. Basic politics really.

yea but we can see that doesnt happen in the alliance. anduin or not. varian complained but did nothing to jaina. and now twice anduins been told to sodd off and nothings happened. so either high kings dont have the authority, or the alliance doesnt work that way or the wyrnns are incapable. though given that varian was going to murder moira i dont think the last point stands.

i think it simply came down to one thing. "yea what u did sucks but oh wells". as for the sylvanas point. she was dead on correct. which is why, as you said, saurfang followed her. but to make a story some things need to be embellished and some aspects changed. sylvanas' perfect plan was shot in the face by herself the moment she left malfurion to saurfang. and the alliance lost the keys to their spacehship so sylvanas could have her war.

[Combatbutler]

yea but we can see that doesnt happen in the alliance. anduin or not. varian complained but did nothing to jaina. and now twice anduins been told to sodd off and nothings happened. so either high kings dont have the authority, or the alliance doesnt work that way or the wyrnns are incapable. though given that varian was going to murder moira i dont think the last point stands.

They are simply cherrypicking, the Alliance put sovereign rulers under house arrest before, even before becoming such a unified faction they are today. The Perenoldes come to mind. All Anduin would have had to do is put Genn in a room for a month and have tea with him there laughing about the whole matter.

i think it simply came down to one thing. "yea what u did sucks but oh wells". as for the sylvanas point. she was dead on correct. which is why, as you said, saurfang followed her. but to make a story some things need to be embellished and some aspects changed. sylvanas' perfect plan was shot in the face by herself the moment she left malfurion to saurfang. and the alliance lost the keys to their spacehship so sylvanas could have her war.

Which is one of the major inconsistencies that plague this xpack and make the whole story arc so stupid.

[vsb]

Good development. Baine will be executed as a traitor and Magatha will lead taurens.

[Minikin]

They are simply cherrypicking, the Alliance put sovereign rulers under house arrest before, even before becoming such a unified faction they are today. The Perenoldes come to mind. All Anduin would have had to do is put Genn in a room for a month and have tea with him there laughing about the whole matter.



Which is one of the major inconsistencies that plague this xpack and make the whole story arc so stupid.

i know. just gets annoying lol. i mean rodgers was on the ship too. an actual human general, who plainly said in her dialogue that shell steer the ship towards the forsaken fleet. but people are tunnel visioned by their "muh hurd! mah queen", and talk about genn while totally forgetting rodgers. im totally fine with leaning towards a certain faction but bias at this point in the game is just a foolish endeavor.

you just wait till the end man! if sylvanas lives we are in for a storm. if she dies we are in for a storm. i dont even know what these boards will look like when either of those happen.

[Zandalariprelate]

i dunno, look at darkshore. both of them tyrande and genn tell the high king "sorry not sorry" and walk of. this has happened before too in the history of the alliance when states due to good or bad reasons have removed or joined forces. the position of a proper military commander was even formed out of reflex due to blackhand kicking their ass up and down the eastern kingdoms. Varian could be furious all he wanted, but he couldnt actually do anything to jaina. Same as Anduin. He can be mad all he wants but as far as crying or waiting for a time when he denies them aid he cant do much. There is no oath to swear like the blood oath in the horde.

Actually he almost send Jaina to jail for that and caused a heated talk, the whole point of an alliance is that every part cooperate and if someone abandons or does things against the interest of the others parts you are breaking the rules they acepted at joining the group and also being a commander of the alliance gives you authority to use the troops of the others members, that is why we see Stormwind soldiers and gnomes under the command of Genn in stormheim.

[Minikin]

Actually he almost send Jaina to jail for that and caused a heated talk, the whole point of an alliance is that every part cooperate and if someone abandons or does things against the interest of the others parts you are breaking the rules they acepted at joining the group and also being a commander of the alliance gives you authority to use the troops of the others members, that is why we see Stormwind soldiers and gnomes under the command of Genn in stormheim.

not entirely bro. they havent added any lore specific to the high king concept like warchief, and there is no oath like the blood oath of the horde for the alliance.

which is esentially the division that sylvanas sees as the weak point to exploit initially with teldrassil. which also happens in darkshore, when genns worgens and the night elves go, regardless of the high king telling them not to. she says it too in her dialogue "with or without the help of the alliance". shandris mentions the same thing in her open dialogue too on how night elves have supported but not a single sword is given to them for their need.

edit: dont think he was going to throw jaina in jail. all he does is exclaim about how he had been in talks with the horde barbies XD.

[B-Man]

I can think of no greater insult than to have Sylvannas's actions inadvertently save Azeroth. It is the stupidity and moral oblivion of "Ends justify Means" to the absurd. "She saved us all! Forget all the senseless carnage, mayhem and pointless cruelty, forget the women and children burned to death in the thousands! It was all for the greater good.tm..."

Fuck off. Didn't we just imprison Sargeras, the Morgoth/Devil of the Warcraft universe, who's plan was to ultimately destroy the Void through the destruction of entire planets and the complete extinction/demonic corruption of hundreds if not thousands of individual races? So the Ends justify the Means does not excuse him, but they excuse Sylvannas, who as far as we can tell, has no greater plan beyond staying undead and raising the Alliance, and logically the Horde and all of Azeroth, into undead servitude to her so that she may ensure she never truly dies?

[Combatbutler]

I can think of no greater insult than to have Sylvannas's actions inadvertently save Azeroth. It is the stupidity and moral oblivion of "Ends justify Means" to the absurd. "She saved us all! Forget all the senseless carnage, mayhem and pointless cruelty, forget the women and children burned to death in the thousands! It was all for the greater good.tm..."

Na they would never ever do that

https://youtu.be/QQUAZZ_OFl8?t=61
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGJ5wa69ZI

[Daevelian]

You claim that horde started the war with Ashran shit and how it "technically" never ended (while ignoring the ceasefire and alliance against the Burning Legion). Then defend it by quoting an article that clearly says the Alliance were looking to use Titan level power with military purposes against the Horde and Horde wanted to defend themselves by getting it first.

Yet you still think Horde started it? And people talk about Horde fanbois and their gymnastics. You're on some next level shit. Lol

Oh, don't worry, i'm aware of that. I'm just trying something new, using the level of mental gymnastics people use to try and paint the horde as these righteous heroes who are merely victims in this war.