There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Azerate]

If you have tens of mythic raid kills and you're still at 385 ilvl maybe the issue is at your end?

[Roxxy]

People never left game for reason they cant do current content becouse there was no catch up mechanic. In fact there is more people quiting game becouse gear no longer last more than couple of months befor all effort and work being devalued by catch up. Catch up was never possitive change for the game. It literaly removed content from game and people get bored of this treadmill. Also entire expansion used to be current content. There wasnt such thing like we only played 8.1, 8.2 or 8.3. 'During TBC we played TBC no 2.1 or 2.2. People wont bother playing game when they know in that in couple of months everything what they do now will be devalued.

This was part of why I unsubbed. The gear treadmill got too much for me. I rode it all through Legion and then got on it at start of BFA and just thought heck no. It produces burnout like nothing else.

[Onikaroshi]

If you have tens of mythic raid kills and you're still at 385 ilvl maybe the issue is at your end?

Not really, between stat weights, bad trinkets in Uldir, Azerite traits, and Personal loot, you can end up getting a massive amount of useless gear.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...-mill/Scocreep

Sco's Monk, many mythic kills, 388

[lllBlackSunlll]

Ilvl is only used for midcore players. Casuals don't really care about how good gear is, only about what content they can play. Hardcore players don't care, only about what they player can do, with respect to how good the gear is. The ilvl of an 8/8M and 0/8M player being the same only matters to midcore players, because it is the only way they have to quantify their skill. Casual content is too boring for them, but not good enough to do the truly hardcore content, so they worship and shun people based on the holy ilvl.

[Roxxy]

yes gear doesn't matter anymore but it did when I first started raiding in Cata. I would inspect and admire the gear on the member of the best mythic raiding guild on my realm and dream about joining and killing mythic bosses.

Maybe I am shallow but it's what I enjoyed in the game was competing on dps meters and gear helped with that. It also helped that gear fell within a certain range and since there wasn't so many pieces these pieces could be balanced (nothing stupid op like arcanocrystal) and the raids could be balanced. When I played in MOP I found that skill would push you up and down the dps list. Now a few lucky titanforges or sockets can push you up and down the list and ilvl can vary wildly in a raid group. Sure Warcraft logs help in that even when I am in the middle of the dps pack I can go and see I performed at 90% for my class ilvl. Which is another thing class balance seems to have gone down the well (I mained shaman in bfa). Blizzard just saying 'wait until 8.1 for shaman to get reworked' and then they do something that could have been done in a hotfix.

[MoanaLisa]

This was part of why I unsubbed. The gear treadmill got too much for me. I rode it all through Legion and then got on it at start of BFA and just thought heck no. It produces burnout like nothing else.

Just a PSA to suggest that it's possible to jump off the treadmill. You give up some things but there's no pressure to play everyday and the game is still OK. It's been a lot better but it's average/OK. Your mileage may vary but it's important to say that getting off the gear treadmill and reassessing the game in that light can be worth doing. As this thread shows, it's easy enough to catch up. I jumped off after Cataclysm and have never regretted it.

[kamuimac]

No it's more like this:

Joe Casual #1 plays wow for 2-3 times a week, only runs the odd heroic/normal/LFR pug, warfronts, and invasions and is happy with that. The game showers him with Heroic Raid quality loot and tells him he's to do mythic raids and mythic +

Hardcore Players then get pissed off because Joe Casual #1 is getting into their groups with his welfare gear, plays like ass, and causes wipes. They feel that Joe Casual should not be given high quality loot for little to no commitment to the game because his lack of investment and game knowledge actively detracts from THEIR experience. They do not want to play with him, because his casual approach makes their fun harder. They would prefer it if Blizzard would stop giving Joe Casual gear that tells him he should be playing with hardcore players.

Joe Casual #2 goes out jogging 2-3 times a week and hits the gym on weekends and is happy with that. The gym showers him performance enhancers and tells him that he's ready to push marathons and bodybuilding contests.

Athletes then get pissed off because Joe Casual #2 is getting into their marathons and competitions, with a body and athleticism that he didn't earn with a strict diet and exercise regimen. They feel that Joe Casual should not be given performance enhancers by the gym when he shows no interest in actually learning anything about nutrition or exercise. They do not want to compete with him, because his casual approach actively detracts from their competitions. They would prefer it if the gym would stop giving Joe Casual performance enhancers that tells him he should be competing with the athletes.


Nobody wants to diminish what you have. We want you to earn what you have and play in content that rewards you for the effort you put into it. You are not entitled to play with the big kids just because you exist.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh, I see, you're not interested in having a discussion about anything. You're more interested in ad hom attacks than providing a counter argument.

texts like this tell me you did not pug before cross realm.

because if you did you would never write nonsense like this.

there were countless pugs through whole wolk and cata breaking up after 1st or 2nd boss on normal back then - there is a reason why first boss was always a walfare boss because that was as fast as 90% of pugs would get.

those people were not created magicaly by lfr - they were always there. if you would be raid leading back then you would know

[Loveliest]

Little jimmy who is the casual that gets 370 is told BY THE GAME that he should do heroic or high m+

He goes and fails the m+ group killing their key

Is that fair to jimmy? The game said he should go there. The gear said he should go there. Everything said he should go there. Ilvl used to be a measurement of skill now its fluff.

What actually happens is this - little Jimmy is 370 now, not 3 months ago. He applies to a group for M+ because game says so. He applies for a 10+ key an nobody takes him because groups look for >380 and for experience via raider.io. So he'll only be taken, MAYBE, in very low keys. Like 2-5 tops. And because he has 370, he doesn't fail, the gear basically carries him.
Unless little Jimmy chooses say the role of a tank and doesn't know the dungeon and doesn't understand anything. In which case, the group will kick him out, tell him he sucks as a tank and get a clue. Yes, key is failed but it is totally fair to Jimmy. Jimmy then either gets upset and stops playing or he actually goes to get a clue. And this could happen even at level 30 with new players. Having crap gear won't fix him being clueless in any group content.

- - - Updated - - -

Sco's Monk, many mythic kills, 388

Because socket > ilvl? Come on guys...

[Roxxy]

Just a PSA to suggest that it's possible to jump off the treadmill. You give up some things but there's no pressure to play everyday and the game is still OK. It's been a lot better but it's average/OK. Your mileage may vary but it's important to say that getting off the gear treadmill and reassessing the game in that light can be worth doing. As this thread shows, it's easy enough to catch up. I jumped off after Cataclysm and have never regretted it.

Yeah I didn't go whole hog on the farming titanforges compared to some, I just don't have the time but when I do near perfect rotation and come mid pack dps in raid I just feel demotivated. I'm sure no one in the group goes 'oh look the shaman parsed high' in fact someone said 'the shaman is keeping up' when I parsed in at over 90 but still came mid pack dps. I laughed but I felt like crying. I could go and collect mounts and stuff but that's not the game I want to play and it's not the game I played when I started. The content I find boring, the story feels like it is written for children and I don't really have any close friends on there, I find it really hard to make friends. I found it pretty easy to make friends on the eu realms when I played over there but on oceanic it's much harder. I'd rather just unsub and remember the days when I had fun. edit: Ill probably give classic a go when it comes out.

[kamuimac]

Yeah I didn't go whole hog on the farming titanforges compared to some, I just don't have the time but when I do near perfect rotation and come mid pack dps in raid I just feel demotivated. I'm sure no one in the group goes 'oh look the shaman parsed high' in fact someone said 'the shaman is keeping up' when I parsed in at over 90 but still came mid pack dps. I laughed but I felt like crying. I could go and collect mounts and stuff but that's not the game I want to play and it's not the game I played when I started. The content I find boring, the story feels like it is written for children and I don't really have any close friends on there, I find it really hard to make friends. I found it pretty easy to make friends on the eu realms when I played over there but on oceanic it's much harder. I'd rather just unsub and remember the days when I had fun. edit: Ill probably give classic a go when it comes out.

the only thing this is proving is that blizzard should ban all dmg meters and logging . because its nothing but detrimental to game and players enjoyment.

[Keren]

As a 8/8M raider myself, i don't see the problem with it. Whatsoever.

You said it yourself, you reach higher ilvls faster, doing something you enjoy (i guess?). Why would other players be limited in their ilvl for not raiding?

You get exclusive traits and trinkets aswell, or did in Uldir in regards to traits.

Have absolutely no problem with other avenues awarding high ilvl rewards, such as Mythic+, PvP, crafting, etc. Game has some issues that should be focused on, but this certainly isn't one of them.

good asnwer

[Leodric]

It's funny to see people defending Blizzards changes regarding such a part of what made WoW successfull while the sub numbers drop to abysmal numbers. Gear was a huge incentive to play the game, period. Welfare epics and the "everyone has to be equal no matter what effort they put in" damaged the game.

[Protean]

It is absolutely pathetic to see that people with no Mythic progression what so ever (or at best Taloc/Mother in pugs) have the exact same ilvl as my main that progressed trough Udlir and now counts 44 mythic boss killed actually sitting at 385 ilvl. I also see that with my alts, my DH is 384 and rogue 385 ilvl, both are not even close to have the same time and effort invested of my main.

Truth is, Mythic raiding will only give you gear a little bit faster in this game, but at the end of the day: Blizzard is just throwing Mythic ilvl gear to everybody and for no reason. Just for the sake of everybody being equal, even if you don't do shit in this game they want you to be as geared a hardcore player.

This was already the case in Legion but in BFA this issue has just been so inflated it's seems like a parody. This game has gone to pure shit in every way possible it's fucking pathetic.

Why are you only ilvl 385 on your main?

[Deleted]

It's seems obvious to me why Mythic raiders may be upset. Up until Legion the game has always been about raiding because that's where the best gear is. They took things a step further in BFA where it seems like you don't even need to raid to have the best gear and you just collect mythic raid level gear by doing a few easy things once a week. I'm 8/8m and I actually have lower ilvl than some friends that don't even raid Mythic.

Because the game just throws gear at you for doing almost nothing, BFA is telling the raiding player base that all the effort they put into raiding is pointless. It's going to take a long time for people to adjust to the notion that gear can now be obtained just by doing a few easy things a week which over a month or so collect to give you a stupidly high ilvl.

Raiding is the most time consuming part of the game but the incentive isn't there. Well, outside of raiding for raiding itself. Which is fine.

[Great Destiny Man]

It's funny to see people defending Blizzards changes regarding such a part of what made WoW successfull while the sub numbers drop to abysmal numbers. Gear was a huge incentive to play the game, period. Welfare epics and the "everyone has to be equal no matter what effort they put in" damaged the game.

People are motivated by different things. For me gear didn't rank high on that list (and I speak as someone with hardcore experience on both the old game and current). Do you want me to pretend otherwise?

Every week it's a different reason why "the game is dying". Some theories I at least lend sympathy to, this is not one of them.

[Leodric]

People are motivated by different things. For me gear didn't rank high on that list (and I speak as someone with hardcore experience on both the old game and current). Do you want me to pretend otherwise?

Every week it's a different reason why "the game is dying". Some theories I at least lend sympathy to, this is not one of them.

For me it's neither now anymore since everyone and their mom get's epics left and right, back then it was a huge motivation for many people, denying that would be a lie, hence why Blizzard thought it's a good idea to give everyone an epic geared character, just with the side effect, that when everyone has it, it's nothing special anymore.

It's part of the human psyche to be better than others or to get a higher reward than others if you put more time/skill into anything. Removing that incentive in an MMORPG is a mistake as we can see. I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been.

[Zulatomten]

Becouse they are at fundamental level exact same boss? Idea of having multiple difficulty settings killed inciative to beat bosses becouse majoryti of players doesnt care what boss difficulty they cleared. For us LFR boss is same boss as mythic boss. It is same content and as long as it will be same content nobady will be interested killing higher difficulty boss. Yaaay i get to kill exact same boss on mythic what i have alredy killes in LFR yaaaay so exciting. Pls give me break. If you want boss kills be iniciative than you have to go back to TBC raiding with 1 difficulty for everyone.

I'd like to take a second and point out that you group up a ton of people into your opinion and not their own.

Anyway, iIf they don't care what difficulty they have cleared, they don't care about raiding. Why whould they be included in the discussion to beginwith? Isn't the discussion about the players who acually are engaged with raiding arn't getting incentives to pursuse the content or making the harder content engaging? Even though i don't exactly agree with it, i still understand the points maken, hence i make the point. Some(no exact group) don't care about the gear, it's just a biproduct of the things we are just doing. To overcome challenges in form of killing difficult bosses encounters.

I agree that there are to many difficulties. Personally i'd be fine with two, LFR & Mythic, LFR being somewhere between about where normal are today. Then people who arn't engaging in the difficult content would still be able to see the basics of the content created. And raiders stay where they are.

And on the point of TBC raiding. TBC raids were good, the raid encounters are of trivial difficulty compared to today's raids. And the incentives you speak of is mainly because TBC had a well balanced gear curve*. Why TBC raids are still good today is because their theme, the camaraderie and the execution of those elements are one of the best Blizzard have ever made.

*: On average a fresh level 70 in the 2.4.3 patch did around 3-400 dps. At the end of Sunwell it ranged around 1800 dps. A increase of just 1400 dps over the whole of TBC.
Compare that to BFA where players have recived a simmilar dps increase after just the first tier of raid gear. It this scale continues, players are going to be several hundred times stronger than they originally were when they dinged 120. The same happened in most expansions since Warlords and the game is going to need a stat & damage squish every expansion. I'd say the inbalance in the gear progression is a bigger culprit to what kills incentive than what incentives there are to do more engaging and harder contnet.

[Great Destiny Man]

For me it's neither now anymore since everyone and their mom get's epics left and right, back then it was a huge motivation for many people, denying that would be a lie, hence why Blizzard thought it's a good idea to give everyone an epic geared character, just with the side effect, that when everyone has it, it's nothing special anymore.

Back when exactly? For Vanilla/TBC gear was really the only reward structure for raids. Sure the troll raids had mounts but it was only ZA that wasn't governed by RNG. For the most part gear was literally the only in game proof we'd cleared the raid so of course it would have more impact than it did in later expansions.

In later expansions I felt much more pride for being able to wield things like The Immortal/Conqueror of Ulduar titles because it set a pretty big distance between you and the average raider. Hell even "I can't Hear You over the Sound of How Awesome I am" still feels great to have even though the achievement provided no cosmetic rewards.

It's part of the human psyche to be better than others or to get a higher reward than others if you put more time/skill into anything. Removing that incentive in an MMORPG is a mistake as we can see.

Ok, but we're talking about recreational aspects here. In all honesty sports is the most apt comparison here. The very elite sports personalities will be earning the top rewards, but that is their career. They make a living off that. The vast majority of raiders are not raiding for a living.

Someone in the thread earlier mentioned marathon running as a comparative and that's an interesting example to me considering I do lot of running. If you finish a marathon you're generally going to be awarded the same medal/TShirt and whatnot as most other people running the race. Those medals/TShirts are cool to be given but the fact that other people who run slower than you gets them to generally means fuck all. What I care about is A) the fact that I've successfully ran the marathon and B) what my time is (the latter of which definitely feeds into the competitive side)

I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been.

Yes but BfA had some polarising design decisions that had a distinct effect on the player base. The most notable being a transition from both Legendary items + Artifact weapon to the Azerite system, which is far less impactful on power and rotation than it's predecessor.

You'd have to be daft to not think that has an effect on player's perceptions of the game and by proxy how many people are still engaged with the game. Gearing for the most part wasn't drastically changed during the Legion to BfA transition, if anything it was a continuation in what they were already doing.

[Leodric]

Back when exactly? For Vanilla/TBC gear was really the only reward structure for raids. Sure the troll raids had mounts but it was only ZA that wasn't governed by RNG. For the most part gear was literally the only in game proof we'd cleared the raid so of course it would have more impact than it did in later expansions.

In later expansions I felt much more pride for being able to wield things like The Immortal/Conqueror of Ulduar titles because it set a pretty big distance between you and the average raider. Hell even "I can't Hear You over the Sound of How Awesome I am" still feels great to have even though the achievement provided no cosmetic rewards.

Gear was a nice reward structure because you also stood out visually. You instantly saw if a warrior cleared harder content by just seeing him in a fraction of a second passing you by. Tier sets had a nice visual effect, mounts and achievements simply can't compete with that anymore since the game is already stacked with dragons/monsters anyone can wield and cool sounding titles. Ask the average game if they know what "the purifier" title is and nobody would give a fuck since titles like "champion of the frozen wastes" sounds cooler. One of the reasons why transmog didn't do well for the game in the long run in my opinion.

Ok, but we're talking about recreational aspects here. In all honesty sports is the most apt comparison here. The very elite sports personalities will be earning the top rewards, but that is their career. They make a living off that. The vast majority of raiders are not raiding for a living.

Someone in the thread earlier mentioned marathon running as a comparative and that's an interesting example to me considering I do lot of running. If you finish a marathon you're generally going to be awarded the same medal/TShirt and whatnot as most other people running the race. Those medals/TShirts are cool to be given but the fact that other people who run slower than you gets them to generally means fuck all. What I care about is A) the fact that I've successfully ran the marathon and B) what my time is (the latter of which definitely feeds into the competitive side)

That's cool and all and it's nice that it works that way for you. I think it can run both ways for people --> looking at their personal success (logs, time whatever) and visually (outstanding gear, titles, achviements and so on).

Yes but BfA had some polarising design decisions that had a distinct effect on the player base. The most notable being a transition from both Legendary items + Artifact weapon to the Azerite system, which is far less impactful on power and rotation than it's predecessor.

You'd have to be daft to not think that has an effect on player's perceptions of the game and by proxy how many people are still engaged with the game. Gearing for the most part wasn't drastically changed during the Legion to BfA transition, if anything it was a continuation in what they were already doing.

The game isn't going down the shitter since BFA. The sub numbers dropped far long ago and I also said that this isn't the only problem why WoW loses sub numbers in my opinion. Many things are very bad for the game right now.

[kamuimac]

It's funny to see people defending Blizzards changes regarding such a part of what made WoW successfull while the sub numbers drop to abysmal numbers. Gear was a huge incentive to play the game, period. Welfare epics and the "everyone has to be equal no matter what effort they put in" damaged the game.

you have any proof of such claim ?

unless you count those 50-100 people here on mmochampion saying the same thing in every thread over and over as "abysmal drop"

its more like drop in a bucket - meaningless.

and in before you come to tell me "but people on official forums say they unsub" - they have been doin it since forever

according to them every previous wow expansion was meant to kill wow and was supposed to be its last

well guess what we are here 10+ years later and wow is making more $$$ then ever.

pretty neat for "Dead game"