There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Great Destiny Man]

Gear was a nice reward structure because you also stood out visually. You instantly saw if a warrior cleared harder content by just seeing him in a fraction of a second passing you by. Tier sets had a nice visual effect, mounts and achievements simply can't compete with that anymore since the game is already stacked with dragons/monsters anyone can wield and cool sounding titles. Ask the average game if they know what "the purifier" title is and nobody would give a fuck since titles like "champion of the frozen wastes" sounds cooler. One of the reasons why transmog didn't do well for the game in the long run in my opinion.

Some tier sets looked god awful though. AQ sets weren't remembered as being visually stunning, neither was ToTC sets. May have had prestige behind them maybe, but would rather have been wearing a clown suit than wear some sets.

Funny thing is I still get people who stop what they're doing and ask me where I obtained some of my mounts from so it has effect. Not that it matters anyway because I don't play this game to feel superior to people through cosmetic means.

That's cool and all and it's nice that it works that way for you. I think it can run both ways for people --> looking at their personal success (logs, time whatever) and visually (outstanding gear, titles, achviements and so on).

I mean this is pretty dismissal of my comment that you're trying to reflect on how humans are generally in both RL and WoW and then just go straight back to just the WoW context. Very few people scream that marathons are ruined because everyone that runs one gets a medal and a T-Shirt.

The game isn't going down the shitter since BFA. The sub numbers dropped far long ago and I also said that this isn't the only problem why WoW loses sub numbers in my opinion. Many things are very bad for the game right now.

And yet we have people saying "Legion was a great expansion, why can't they go back to Legion design philosophy". That's not indicative of the wider consensus being "WoW has been in a complete freefall for a long time".

[kamuimac]

For me it's neither now anymore since everyone and their mom get's epics left and right, back then it was a huge motivation for many people, denying that would be a lie, hence why Blizzard thought it's a good idea to give everyone an epic geared character, just with the side effect, that when everyone has it, it's nothing special anymore.

It's part of the human psyche to be better than others or to get a higher reward than others if you put more time/skill into anything. Removing that incentive in an MMORPG is a mistake as we can see. I am also not saying that this is the only theory/reason why WoW loses subs, there are many which are also justified and Blizzard frankly can't do anything against it (current generation not interested as much anymore into MMORPGs for example), but the number of sub loss is definitly way too high for a game like WoW has been.

if anyone who is older then 14-15 year old looks for stuff like this in computer game in order to find self accomplisment irl he needs proffesional help :/

like really - people need to stop treating wow as life. its just a game - its never gonna be anything else unless you are a succesfull streamer

[Deleted]

not everything end game is playing mythic

[Leodric]

you have any proof of such claim ?

unless you count those 50-100 people here on mmochampion saying the same thing in every thread over and over as "abysmal drop"

its more like drop in a bucket - meaningless.

and in before you come to tell me "but people on official forums say they unsub" - they have been doin it since forever

according to them every previous wow expansion was meant to kill wow and was supposed to be its last

well guess what we are here 10+ years later and wow is making more $$$ then ever.

pretty neat for "Dead game"

It's called using common sense. Before they decided not to show any sub numbers it dropped constantly with some sub gains during a new expansion which didn't last long. Do you really think if the sub numbers would be in a good state they would hide? Why would any company hide their success, especially when their product is a MMO game, which lives by it's numbers. It's also funny that oyu claim WoW is making more $$$ than ever without you showing the proof for it. I heavily doubt Blizzard is doing more money with services and low sub numbers than with the 10+ million subs they once had.

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Some tier sets looked god awful though. AQ sets weren't remembered as being visually stunning, neither was ToTC sets. May have had prestige behind them maybe, but would rather have been wearing a clown suit than wear some sets.

Funny thing is I still get people who stop what they're doing and ask me where I obtained some of my mounts from so it has effect. Not that it matters anyway because I don't play this game to feel superior to people through cosmetic means.

Well that's subjective. I didn't like the AQ40 set as well, but it did give the feeling of "unique looking and therefore special". It's all about the prestige as you've already said.

I mean this is pretty dismissal of my comment that you're trying to reflect on how humans are generally in both RL and WoW and then just go straight back to just the WoW context. Very few people scream that marathons are ruined because everyone that runs one gets a medal and a T-Shirt.

But Humans do strive for competition and to be better than the other person. You gave sports for an example, it's great that you don't care how fast other runners where or if they get a medal and a T-Shirt. But the comparision is not applicable to WoW. If you take Football for example, I heavily doubt that the french national team gave 2 fucks if the other teams got medals and what not, since the prestige of winning it and having such a huge exposure for them showing that they are the best is enough. In WoW you don't have that in game anymore as strong as back in vanilla, hence my comparision with the guy passing you by with his neat items and you instantly knew how good he was.

And yet we have people saying "Legion was a great expansion, why can't they go back to Legion design philosophy". That's not indicative of the wider consensus being "WoW has been in a complete freefall for a long time".

And? Still doesn't mean that it's better than how it was a decade ago or on the same level. I for example think Legion was a good expansion, it had some issues but was good overall. But a small high doesn't help the game from the constant fall it endures. If they would've continued growing and push out better expansions than Legion, of course it could get at the same level one day, but I doubt it. People wished so much for the old kind of WoW that Blizzard finally gave them classic servers, I think they at least acknowledge that they did well back in the day.

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if anyone who is older then 14-15 year old looks for stuff like this in computer game in order to find self accomplisment irl he needs proffesional help :/

like really - people need to stop treating wow as life. its just a game - its never gonna be anything else unless you are a succesfull streamer

People who find self accomplishment in their hobbies need proffesional help? I guess people who play in hobby sport leagues and put time/money into getting first also need professional help. Or are you one of these people who say that because it's a computer game people have a mental issue seeing it as a hobby? That would be funny since you nearly have 10k posts in a forum dedicated to a "mere" game.

[Lurker1]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaah

i can't be special snowflake from mythic raiding


waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

wah wah waaaaaaaaaaaah


-op

lol pretty much!

[Deleted]

lol pretty much!

The fact that you two dont see the problem.... just lol

[Lurker1]

It's called using common sense. Before they decided not to show any sub numbers it dropped constantly with some sub gains during a new expansion which didn't last long. Do you really think if the sub numbers would be in a good state they would hide? Why would any company hide their success, especially when their product is a MMO game, which lives by it's numbers. It's also funny that oyu claim WoW is making more $$$ than ever without you showing the proof for it. I heavily doubt Blizzard is doing more money with services and low sub numbers than with the 10+ million subs they once had.

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Well that's subjective. I didn't like the AQ40 set as well, but it did give the feeling of "unique looking and therefore special". It's all about the prestige as you've already said.



But Humans do strive for competition and to be better than the other person. You gave sports for an example, it's great that you don't care how fast other runners where or if they get a medal and a T-Shirt. But the comparision is not applicable to WoW. If you take Football for example, I heavily doubt that the french national team gave 2 fucks if the other teams got medals and what not, since the prestige of winning it and having such a huge exposure for them showing that they are the best is enough. In WoW you don't have that in game anymore as strong as back in vanilla, hence my comparision with the guy passing you by with his neat items and you instantly knew how good he was.




And? Still doesn't mean that it's better than how it was a decade ago or on the same level. I for example think Legion was a good expansion, it had some issues but was good overall. But a small high doesn't help the game from the constant fall it endures. If they would've continued growing and push out better expansions than Legion, of course it could get at the same level one day, but I doubt it. People wished so much for the old kind of WoW that Blizzard finally gave them classic servers, I think they at least acknowledge that they did well back in the day.

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People who find self accomplishment in their hobbies need proffesional help? I guess people who play in hobby sport leagues and put time/money into getting first also need professional help. Or are you one of these people who say that because it's a computer game people have a mental issue seeing it as a hobby? That would be funny since you nearly have 10k posts in a forum dedicated to a "mere" game.

Common Sense doesn't = facts sir.

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The fact that you two dont see the problem.... just lol

I get it you miss people stareing at your gear news flash i was never the person to stare at you get over it already just play your way and worry about yourself and let other play there way it's a win win.

[Deleted]

Common Sense doesn't = facts sir.

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I get it you miss people stareing at your gear news flash i was never the person to stare at you get over it already just play your way and worry about yourself and let other play there way it's a win win.

It was never about people staring or being special snowflakes. It made gear have meaning and value. It made good gear be the endgame which allowed u to raid and own and etc....

Gear today has no meaning or value and is easily obtainable so whats the point anymore..

[Lurker1]

It was never about people staring or being special snowflakes. It made gear have meaning and value. It made good gear be the endgame which allowed u to raid and own and etc....

Gear today has no meaning or value and is easily obtainable so whats the point anymore..

Sure and im mickey mouse.

[Deleted]

Sure and im mickey mouse.

??????????????

[Great Destiny Man]

Well that's subjective. I didn't like the AQ40 set as well, but it did give the feeling of "unique looking and therefore special". It's all about the prestige as you've already said.

Of course it's subjective, just like saying "it's all about the prestige" or that "lack of gear segmentation is injuring the game". I'm just saying from experience, it wasn't (and isn't) a big a deal to me as you guys want it to be.

But Humans do strive for competition and to be better than the other person. You gave sports for an example, it's great that you don't care how fast other runners where or if they get a medal and a T-Shirt. But the comparision is not applicable to WoW. If you take Football for example, I heavily doubt that the french national team gave 2 fucks if the other teams got medals and what not, since the prestige of winning it and having such a huge exposure for them showing that they are the best is enough. In WoW you don't have that in game anymore as strong as back in vanilla, hence my comparision with the guy passing you by with his neat items and you instantly knew how good he was.

Exposure isn't a tangible reward, so what does that have to do with gear either?

Also again, national Football players are playing Football for a living. You and I do not raid as our primary income source.

And? Still doesn't mean that it's better than how it was a decade ago or on the same level. I for example think Legion was a good expansion, it had some issues but was good overall. But a small high doesn't help the game from the constant fall it endures. If they would've continued growing and push out better expansions than Legion, of course it could get at the same level one day, but I doubt it. People wished so much for the old kind of WoW that Blizzard finally gave them classic servers, I think they at least acknowledge that they did well back in the day.

You talk about gear prestige and looks being subjective but fail to admit that game quality is also subjective? Primarily sub numbers fall because the game is old. Some of the sub drops will be natural (getting older and different priorities), some will be people getting bored of the game, others angry with changes in direction but hoisting up sub numbers as a "see this, this shows the game is shit" is 2 dimensional to the extreme.

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Gear today has no meaning or value and is easily obtainable so whats the point anymore..

If that's all you ever cared about you're essentially answering your own question.

[Kwaai]

Everyone suffers.

Except the people smart enough to inspect his achievements or check is r.io.

In fact, Jimmy can now play lower M+, or normal Uldir with his friends and be more likely to succeed. Nice!

[MoanaLisa]

Yeah I didn't go whole hog on the farming titanforges compared to some, I just don't have the time but when I do near perfect rotation and come mid pack dps in raid I just feel demotivated. I'm sure no one in the group goes 'oh look the shaman parsed high' in fact someone said 'the shaman is keeping up' when I parsed in at over 90 but still came mid pack dps. I laughed but I felt like crying. I could go and collect mounts and stuff but that's not the game I want to play and it's not the game I played when I started. The content I find boring, the story feels like it is written for children and I don't really have any close friends on there, I find it really hard to make friends. I found it pretty easy to make friends on the eu realms when I played over there but on oceanic it's much harder. I'd rather just unsub and remember the days when I had fun. edit: Ill probably give classic a go when it comes out.

That's perfectly fair. Thanks for the explanation.

[Deleted]

Of course it's subjective, just like saying "it's all about the prestige" or that "lack of gear segmentation is injuring the game". I'm just saying from experience, it wasn't (and isn't) a big a deal to me as you guys want it to be.



Exposure isn't a tangible reward, so what does that have to do with gear either?

Also again, national Football players are playing Football for a living. You and I do not raid as our primary income source.



You talk about gear prestige and looks being subjective but fail to admit that game quality is also subjective? Primarily sub numbers fall because the game is old. Some of the sub drops will be natural (getting older and different priorities), some will be people getting bored of the game, others angry with changes in direction but hoisting up sub numbers as a "see this, this shows the game is shit" is 2 dimensional to the extreme.

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If that's all you ever cared about you're essentially answering your own question.

thats not all i cared about, but its a big deal

[Leodric]

Of course it's subjective, just like saying "it's all about the prestige" or that "lack of gear segmentation is injuring the game". I'm just saying from experience, it wasn't (and isn't) a big a deal to me as you guys want it to be.

Exposure isn't a tangible reward, so what does that have to do with gear either?

It is, people recognize you. You yourself know that not many people have the same gear as you do.

Also again, national Football players are playing Football for a living. You and I do not raid as our primary income source.

So what? I don't see the connection. Raiding or playing WoW can also be done in a competitive way as it is all the time, without getting income from it.

You talk about gear prestige and looks being subjective but fail to admit that game quality is also subjective? Primarily sub numbers fall because the game is old. Some of the sub drops will be natural (getting older and different priorities), some will be people getting bored of the game, others angry with changes in direction but hoisting up sub numbers as a "see this, this shows the game is shit" is 2 dimensional to the extreme.

Of course it is subjective, as nearly everything in life, but you have to be dishonest to not see and admit that there IS a correlation between game quality and sub numbers. I also stated if you would've read my posts carefully, that it's obviously not the only reason and that there are many "justified" reasons for a sub loss.

[kamuimac]

Except the people smart enough to inspect his achievements or check is r.io.

In fact, Jimmy can now play lower M+, or normal Uldir with his friends and be more likely to succeed. Nice!

and he is perfeckly happy with it.

people have this ridiculous notion that everybody playing wow is dreaming day and night about going into mythic + or hc mythic raiding - which is a nonsense.

if it was like this then we wouldnthave for 15 years now only 10-15% of playerbase doin hardmodes.

face it most of people dont care about hardmodes- never did and never will .

and for those people BfA is the best expansion since ever.

[Lazel]

and he is perfeckly happy with it.

people have this ridiculous notion that everybody playing wow is dreaming day and night about going into mythic + or hc mythic raiding - which is a nonsense.

if it was like this then we wouldnthave for 15 years now only 10-15% of playerbase doin hardmodes.

face it most of people dont care about hardmodes- never did and never will .

and for those people BfA is the best expansion since ever.

What am I reading , why did wow peak in expansions where you couldn't get gear from everywhere possible then?

[Great Destiny Man]

It is, people recognize you. You yourself know that not many people have the same gear as you do.

People recognize DPS meters, logs, achievements, titles, mounts and many other things. Whether you believe gear holds above those aspects is entirely up to you, I'm not required to buy into that notion.

So what? I don't see the connection. Raiding or playing WoW can also be done in a competitive way as it is all the time, without getting income from it.

Because you have to stand out in professional sports if it's your primary income source, or funnily enough it affects your income. There is absolutely 0 requirement to stand out when you're casually playing games.

Of course it is subjective, as nearly everything in life, but you have to be dishonest to not see and admit that there IS a correlation between game quality and sub numbers. I also stated if you would've read my posts carefully, that it's obviously not the only reason and that there are many "justified" reasons for a sub loss.

I don't need a narrative of "this game is shit" forced down my throat, especially not when someone touts sub numbers as some absolute factor for that.

If you had read my last post specifically it was addressing your general view point of the game being worse. I had already dealt with the gear importance on subs in the older posts.

[Leodric]

People recognize DPS meters, logs, achievements, titles, mounts and many other things. Whether you believe gear holds above those aspects is entirely up to you, I'm not required to buy into that notion.

All things which are not as visible as gear. Especially logs/DPS meters require addons or other sites, so not even in game. You are not, but the majority most likely is

Because you have to stand out in professional sports if it's your primary income source, or funnily enough it affects your income. There is absolutely 0 requirement to stand out when you're casually playing games.

Of course there isn't, but it's a huge incentive of playing MMORPGs to stand out.

I don't need a narrative of "this game is shit" forced down my throat, especially not when someone touts sub numbers as some absolute factor for that.

If you had read my last post specifically it was addressing your general view point of the game being worse. I had already dealt with the gear importance on subs in the older posts.

But it is worse and the sub numbers are a huge sign of the game losing on quality. I never said it's shit btw, I still like it and play it, but acknowledge the decline of quality.

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What am I reading , why did wow peak in expansions where you couldn't get gear from everywhere possible then?

Yep, that's the point.

[Great Destiny Man]

All things which are not as visible as gear. Especially logs/DPS meters require addons or other sites, so not even in game. You are not, but the majority most likely is

I was wondering how long the "you're part of the minority" would be put forth. You have no way to validate how many people put emphasis on gear so honestly it's a vapid comment.

Of course there isn't, but it's a huge incentive of playing MMORPGs to stand out.

Sports professionals NEED to stand out which makes the comparison rather baseless.

But it is worse and the sub numbers are a huge sign of the game losing on quality. I never said it's shit btw, I still like it and play it, but acknowledge the decline of quality.

I've already told you game quality is subjective. I don't know why you keep trying to convince me otherwise.