Are the nightborne the true kaldorei

[Mace]

While i have for a while now been requesting night elves be portrayed more as kaldorei than tree'dorei, I can't help but wonder if the nightborne were initially intended to be the response beforre being diverteed to be blood elves.

It's obvious from what we are shown in-game, the kaldorei we play are far more children of the forest/trees than they are of the stars.. that higher calling and state we older players believed was their identity (because we told this and shown), with the long vigil state we saw in WC3 presentation seeming only a stage in the journey is now 14 years later only appearing to be a title only in name (irony) as blizzard didn't bother to properly expand on that.

However, the nightborne, well these are night elves of the pre-sundering culture. They have maintained the pre-suundering era idenetity, the one in which the name kaldorei was given in the first place.

While blizzard now call them kaldorei, they seem to be more children of the stars than the tree elves. Now while I'm fully aware night elves have highborne amongst them currently, face it, that culture has almost zero exposure amongst the kaldorei group.

The shen'dralar were not expanded in Cataclysm. And before you fans bring up the Farondis, they aren't of the present they are the 10,000 years ago version that aren't even alive.

The nightborne fit that bracket far better.

I think it is high time blizzard give the playable night elves a new name, Tree'dorei - and kaldorei becomes the ancient name of the elves.

This may seem harsh, but i think it better rfelcts the current development direction. Originally, the nighte lves appeared to be a people on a journey. The long vigil, arcane abstienence, full on nature, seemed just a phse their understanding of the world dictated upon them, we were introduced to them at the end of that phase, it was logical to assume that nature would not tbe the only facet we would see, but in time we would see more of the arcane side spoken of in their past, and the star stuff.

But it never showed. they have almost nothing to do with the stars, except for star shards removed from priests, and some balance druid spells, that seem more associated with tauren and trolls than night elves. Whereas the nightborne, they cast lots of moon and star spells in Suramar and the nighthold. Their city, has far more moon and star syymbols all over it. In the walls , the banners, the buildings - full of crescent moons and stars. Then you see Star Augurs, Astromancers, Starmancers - lots of moon spells.

Not once do you see a night elf npc druid cast star/moon spells.

If the night elves were actually going to be the kaldorei, we would have seen more of it by now. I know they didn't flesh out the shen'dralar, but htey did the nightborne, and the nightborne are portrayed as nightborne, not night elves.

And at the moment they seem mroe kaldorie than the Darnassians.

I feel blizzard needs to either.
1. Chang ethe name of the night elves from Kaldorei to Tree'dorei or
2. Bring out the star aspect of the kaldorei a lot more strongly in the Darnassians by either
a) another original kaldorei group being fleshed out like the nightborne were or
b) TIe the nightborne back into the kaldorie and bring out that aspect more - eitherby causing alareg group to defect to the kaldorei and turn into their kaldorie forms continuing in the pre-sundering arcane/elune culture and havingt hat element shown visibly.
c) TAke the Darnassians and focus more on the star /arcane side, connecting that aspect of their identity to their current state - they are no longer in vigil, arcane abstiencne is meaningless now, so is the fear or stigma after the legion's defeat and curing of addiction - use it. to bring out that identity.

Otherwise, develop the kaldorei identity of the nightborne. There is a reason they are Shal'dorei, not shaldorei, they feel more like caste of kaldorei, like the highborne (quel'dorei) than they do a different non-night elf related entity.

THis is just my impression btw. I noticed the Kaldorei identity of the nightborne was strongly shown in 7.0 and 7.1 and in the nighthold, but since then, its vgone awol.. they seem to be just blood elves with a shal'dorei model. They don't feel kaldorei or associated with the akldorei at all anymore.

Even though everything about them in Legion is pre-sundering kaldorei.

[Aucald]

I would say "no." The Kaldorei we know, the modern Night Elves led by Tyrande and Malfurion, are the "true" Kaldorei. The ancient pre-Sundering Night Elves also called themselves the Kaldorei, but over time suffered a number of schisms that led to the modern Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei. I think it's also worth underlining that the Kaldorei retain a spiritual importance on the moon, night, and stars both through their worship of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures. The Shal'dorei, by contrast, are named for the Nightwell itself - their society dropping both the importance of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures given that for 10,000+ years they were separated entirely from the visible day/night cycle due to the shield over Suramar.

[Lillyth]

No, they're just cowards and have nothing in common with the Kaldorei any longer.

[Rhlor]

they are shaldorei.

the true kaldorei doesn't exist today

[Raetary]

they literally mutated over the 10k years they have spent sucking on nightwell energies in that bubble of theirs.
no, they most definitely are not.

- - - Updated - - -

they are shaldorei.

the true kaldorei doesn't exist today

the entire night elf population (or rather what's left of them) says hi.

[AngryTenko]

Also, the nightborne were Kaldorei aristocrats and noblemen, while Tyrande, Malfurion and the people who ended up becoming the current Night Elves were mostly a mixture of commoners and clergymen, Malfurion being effectively a cleric from a newer religion that was never adopted by the upper classes. They come from two different parts of the "original Kaldorei culture" right from the beggining. Don't forget Azshara fully intended to sacrifice commoners to the Legion as a part of her deal.

[Faroth]

Everything surrounding the Priesstesses of Elune would still tie in with the stars and such. The arcane doesn't really connect to the stars either, so I'm not sure how arcane using Nightborne = children of the stars more than the Darnassian contingent.

[Beloren]

While i have for a while now been requesting night elves be portrayed more as kaldorei than tree'dorei, I can't help but wonder if the nightborne were initially intended to be the response beforre being diverteed to be blood elves.

It's obvious from what we are shown in-game, the kaldorei we play are far more children of the forest/trees than they are of the stars.. that higher calling and state we older players believed was their identity (because we told this and shown), with the long vigil state we saw in WC3 presentation seeming only a stage in the journey is now 14 years later only appearing to be a title only in name (irony) as blizzard didn't bother to properly expand on that.

However, the nightborne, well these are night elves of the pre-sundering culture. They have maintained the pre-suundering era idenetity, the one in which the name kaldorei was given in the first place.

While blizzard now call them kaldorei, they seem to be more children of the stars than the tree elves. Now while I'm fully aware night elves have highborne amongst them currently, face it, that culture has almost zero exposure amongst the kaldorei group.

The shen'dralar were not expanded in Cataclysm. And before you fans bring up the Farondis, they aren't of the present they are the 10,000 years ago version that aren't even alive.

The nightborne fit that bracket far better.

I think it is high time blizzard give the playable night elves a new name, Tree'dorei - and kaldorei becomes the ancient name of the elves.

This may seem harsh, but i think it better rfelcts the current development direction. Originally, the nighte lves appeared to be a people on a journey. The long vigil, arcane abstienence, full on nature, seemed just a phse their understanding of the world dictated upon them, we were introduced to them at the end of that phase, it was logical to assume that nature would not tbe the only facet we would see, but in time we would see more of the arcane side spoken of in their past, and the star stuff.

But it never showed. they have almost nothing to do with the stars, except for star shards removed from priests, and some balance druid spells, that seem more associated with tauren and trolls than night elves. Whereas the nightborne, they cast lots of moon and star spells in Suramar and the nighthold. Their city, has far more moon and star syymbols all over it. In the walls , the banners, the buildings - full of crescent moons and stars. Then you see Star Augurs, Astromancers, Starmancers - lots of moon spells.

Not once do you see a night elf npc druid cast star/moon spells.

If the night elves were actually going to be the kaldorei, we would have seen more of it by now. I know they didn't flesh out the shen'dralar, but htey did the nightborne, and the nightborne are portrayed as nightborne, not night elves.

And at the moment they seem mroe kaldorie than the Darnassians.

I feel blizzard needs to either.
1. Chang ethe name of the night elves from Kaldorei to Tree'dorei or
2. Bring out the star aspect of the kaldorei a lot more strongly in the Darnassians by either
a) another original kaldorei group being fleshed out like the nightborne were or
b) TIe the nightborne back into the kaldorie and bring out that aspect more - eitherby causing alareg group to defect to the kaldorei and turn into their kaldorie forms continuing in the pre-sundering arcane/elune culture and havingt hat element shown visibly.
c) TAke the Darnassians and focus more on the star /arcane side, connecting that aspect of their identity to their current state - they are no longer in vigil, arcane abstiencne is meaningless now, so is the fear or stigma after the legion's defeat and curing of addiction - use it. to bring out that identity.

Otherwise, develop the kaldorei identity of the nightborne. There is a reason they are Shal'dorei, not shaldorei, they feel more like caste of kaldorei, like the highborne (quel'dorei) than they do a different non-night elf related entity.

THis is just my impression btw. I noticed the Kaldorei identity of the nightborne was strongly shown in 7.0 and 7.1 and in the nighthold, but since then, its vgone awol.. they seem to be just blood elves with a shal'dorei model. They don't feel kaldorei or associated with the akldorei at all anymore.

Even though everything about them in Legion is pre-sundering kaldorei.

Currently their are no star elves in wow.

Wow is blizzard's game, if they initially wanted to develop Star elves in some magical journey that took the night elves out of their wilderness period into re-discovering their original identity, then decided well people like them as tree elves, lets just leave them there, then that's up to blizz.

Your night elves were only ever going to get development if blizzard were interested in them. But they switched off you guys in classic, and didn't' bother developing you, so you're stuck as tree elves.. and frankly most people like it.

Maybe they'd re-create the star elves with a night elf sub-race like the shen'dralar or Farondis - maybe they won't. Nightborne can still be made into star elves though, except they're not called kaldorei, and now they have a new path - they may have been originally intended for the night elves but they are no longer. Move on.

I think you over think things too much. Initially they may have had some grand design for night elves, but if you haven't noticed, since wow developed and they dropped the RTS, they have been no real grand lore designs outside a major plot to drive the MMO, and a few outstanding character to facilitate those plots. RTS so a lot of race driven story, in Wow the races are just designed to give the alliance or horde flavour , not actually be themselves.

[Varodoc]

How can we call them "Chilldren of the Stars" after they spent the last 10.000 years without ever seeing a single star in the sky?

[ravenmoon]

I would say "no." The Kaldorei we know, the modern Night Elves led by Tyrande and Malfurion, are the "true" Kaldorei. The ancient pre-Sundering Night Elves also called themselves the Kaldorei, but over time suffered a number of schisms that led to the modern Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei. I think it's also worth underlining that the Kaldorei retain a spiritual importance on the moon, night, and stars both through their worship of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures. The Shal'dorei, by contrast, are named for the Nightwell itself - their society dropping both the importance of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures given that for 10,000+ years they were separated entirely from the visible day/night cycle due to the shield over Suramar.

If Tyrande's lot are the ancient Kaldorei, they cannot have forgotten the stars or that identity.

There is a reason they have not changed their name - even though they seem like tree elves to most people. And I have a theory about this.

1. Perception. Gamers don't immerse themselves in lore, night elves seem like tree elves because they only paying attention to what is in front of them rather than the whole picture, and the game doesn't show the whole picture, but the lore tells it to us.

2. The Long vigil and the nature era is not the defector state.., the ling vigil was not a new identity, it was task. The druid class ethos dominated because they couldn't use the arcane, and they were on watch as world defenders.

The original night elf identity and mandate is paused. So it resumes after wc3, but obviously it would be dominated by the nature era, in time it will balance itself out as arcane usage would be restored and night elves will have stars, moon and tree focus representing the arcane, Elune and nature as followed by the mages, priests and druids.

We haven't really seen original night elf life as it as, before highborne addiction and arrogance, before the Legion and the Long Vigil...what they did or cared about when they weren't guarding against the Legion or calling them.

I think this state has been on pause in their high alert state, but you see the effects all over.

Suramar littered with star and moon symbols, it is the same night elf city built before they became nightborne, so it's symbolism is kaldorei, not shal'dorei (assuming shal'dorei is a departure from kaldorei which I don't think it is, I think it is a branching of it - High elf though is a departure). There are other sings, the nod statements "stars guide you", and the star spells cast by priests, druids and Moonguard as well as nightborne.

These are all indications of it. I think the arcane side of the culture carried the greatest presentation of this, and if blizzard were to flesh out the Farondis with joining the night elves, and the Shen'dralar too, we shall probably see much more of this.

This is what makes the night elf mages and arcana distinguished from the blood elves. Thalssians are not star magic focused, they are sun and void focused

[Beloren]

I would say "no." The Kaldorei we know, the modern Night Elves led by Tyrande and Malfurion, are the "true" Kaldorei. The ancient pre-Sundering Night Elves also called themselves the Kaldorei, but over time suffered a number of schisms that led to the modern Quel'dorei and Shal'dorei. I think it's also worth underlining that the Kaldorei retain a spiritual importance on the moon, night, and stars both through their worship of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures. The Shal'dorei, by contrast, are named for the Nightwell itself - their society dropping both the importance of Elune as well as their nocturnal natures given that for 10,000+ years they were separated entirely from the visible day/night cycle due to the shield over Suramar.

I agree partially. The nightborne seem to love the stars, but they are named after the night - a star less sky, no moon and stars.

Every elf that looks like a night elf is a true kaldorei - the modern night elves - Darnassians, aren't the only night elves around. Aren't shen'dralar, farondis and moonguard pre-sundering night elves? They haven't changed yet.

I think the star meaning has more than spiritual significance - but blizzard haven't done anything with it. Just like they haven't touched on the spiritual significance of the sun to the thalassian elves. Which is a shame. They've just focused on other things. With night elves you have spiritual significane of the moon and the trees, not the stars. and they are named after the stars..so either that is a huge omission, or it is the biggest surprise they have yet which they are building the night elves up to show - maybe that's why the highborne are back.

- - - Updated - - -

Everything surrounding the Priesstesses of Elune would still tie in with the stars and such. The arcane doesn't really connect to the stars either, so I'm not sure how arcane using Nightborne = children of the stars more than the Darnassian contingent.

Star and moon magic is all arcane based.
Elune is discovered through the well, and intially was believed to dwell within its waters.

Even I see Elune and the arcane are completely intertwined in the night elves - and it's not surprising people associate the moon and stars with both. It is even likely night elves build the mage class from the priesthood. I was reading someone's post a while a back, and they made an interesting point, it is likely magecraft developed from priests that focused soley on the practical applications of the arcane well, while the priesthood were more the overall thing - especially the spiritual significance.

The priesthood do seem a combination of arcane, light and void.

I guess some people don't realise how arcane rooted the night elves' origin and identity is. i mean its great they have a strong modern nature identity too, but it doesn't look like they've shed their core. Banning the arcane is very different from removing the arcane connection from yourself.

And they do no such thing. Instead they guard the Well of Eternity, and use it through moonwells for the entire 10k year period they cannot use it for spells. then as soon as that reason is no longer relevant, they start again.

It's easy to see why some would say they're hypocrites, but also easy to see why they actually aren't at all.

[Aucald]

If Tyrande's lot are the ancient Kaldorei, they cannot have forgotten the stars or that identity.

There is a reason they have not changed their name - even though they seem like tree elves to most people. And I have a theory about this.

1. Perception. Gamers don't immerse themselves in lore, night elves seem like tree elves because they only paying attention to what is in front of them rather than the whole picture, and the game doesn't show the whole picture, but the lore tells it to us.

2. The Long vigil and the nature era is not the defector state.., the ling vigil was not a new identity, it was task. The druid class ethos dominated because they couldn't use the arcane, and they were on watch as world defenders.

The original night elf identity and mandate is paused. So it resumes after wc3, but obviously it would be dominated by the nature era, in time it will balance itself out as arcane usage would be restored and night elves will have stars, moon and tree focus representing the arcane, Elune and nature as followed by the mages, priests and druids.

We haven't really seen original night elf life as it as, before highborne addiction and arrogance, before the Legion and the Long Vigil...what they did or cared about when they weren't guarding against the Legion or calling them.

I think this state has been on pause in their high alert state, but you see the effects all over.

Suramar littered with star and moon symbols, it is the same night elf city built before they became nightborne, so it's symbolism is kaldorei, not shal'dorei (assuming shal'dorei is a departure from kaldorei which I don't think it is, I think it is a branching of it - High elf though is a departure). There are other sings, the nod statements "stars guide you", and the star spells cast by priests, druids and Moonguard as well as nightborne.

These are all indications of it. I think the arcane side of the culture carried the greatest presentation of this, and if blizzard were to flesh out the Farondis with joining the night elves, and the Shen'dralar too, we shall probably see much more of this.

This is what makes the night elf mages and arcana distinguished from the blood elves. Thalssians are not star magic focused, they are sun and void focused

In the days before the ascent of the Highborne and Azshara the Night Elves seemed to embrace both the Arcane and the natural world in more or less equal measure - they revered the night, moon, and the stars by virtue of being a nocturnal people, informed by a general veneration for Elune and her associated motifs (even equating the Well of Eternity with her place of origin in some myths). Over time the Arcane seemed to become a larger and more important aspect of their civilization as magical technology and science spread, eclipsing and undercutting the more naturalistic aspects of the society represented by individuals such as Malfurion and Valewalker Farodin's order. Following the War of the Ancients and the Sundering they turned their backs on the Arcane and fully re-embraced the two remaining pillars of their society: the Priesthood of Elune and the rediscovered naturalistic path taking the form of Malfurion's exploration into Druidism.

Suramar has many of the motifs of the ancient Kaldorei because it is itself an ancient Kaldorei city, and the bulk of the city remains underneath further expansion and refinement by those who would become the Shal'dorei in time. Of course, they've stamped the city with their own unique imprimatur as well - as lacy Arcane affectations and physically impossible engineering litter the city and its environs. The Shal'dorei still retain a focus on the Stars and the Night, but their approach is magical instead of spiritual, everything is viewed through the lens of the Arcane fixation which predominates their society.

If there was a progression from a focus on nature to the Arcane I would imagine it would roughly be:

Kaldorei >> Farondin's people > Moonguard > Shen'drelar > Quel'dorei > Shal'dorei

- - - Updated - - -

I agree partially. The nightborne seem to love the stars, but they are named after the night - a star less sky, no moon and stars.

Every elf that looks like a night elf is a true kaldorei - the modern night elves - Darnassians, aren't the only night elves around. Aren't shen'dralar, farondis and moonguard pre-sundering night elves? They haven't changed yet.

I think the star meaning has more than spiritual significance - but blizzard haven't done anything with it. Just like they haven't touched on the spiritual significance of the sun to the thalassian elves. Which is a shame. They've just focused on other things. With night elves you have spiritual significane of the moon and the trees, not the stars. and they are named after the stars..so either that is a huge omission, or it is the biggest surprise they have yet which they are building the night elves up to show - maybe that's why the highborne are back.

Elune seems to have a significant overlap with "star magic" as concerns the Kaldorei - Starshards, Starfall, and celestial abilities are tied to the Priesthood of Elune (and have been shared with their Druid kin). Personally, I think "star" and celestial magic is how the Priests and Priestesses of Elune rationalize the legacy and continued use of the Arcane, albeit in a manner sanctified or ratified by Elune's blessing.

[Beloren]

In the days before the ascent of the Highborne and Azshara the Night Elves seemed to embrace both the Arcane and the natural world in more or less equal measure - they revered the night, moon, and the stars by virtue of being a nocturnal people, informed by a general veneration for Elune and her associated motifs (even equating the Well of Eternity with her place of origin in some myths).

This seems to be where they are at their most balanced, and this is when it seems their civilization spreads and expands, and their cities and forests were built. Combining arcane and nature magic we are told. It is also this point of balance i think the night elves today could possibly approach again. But this time they have millennia more knowledge in each field - it could be astonishing. If blizzard want to buff the night elves today, they already have a lore basis to do so.

I think it is very telling that they are not, it means they don't want to.

Over time the Arcane seemed to become a larger and more important aspect of their civilization as magical technology and science spread, eclipsing and undercutting the more naturalistic aspects of the society represented by individuals such as Malfurion and Valewalker Farodin's order. Following the War of the Ancients and the Sundering they turned their backs on the Arcane and fully re-embraced the two remaining pillars of their society: the Priesthood of Elune and the rediscovered naturalistic path taking the form of Malfurion's exploration into Druidism.

1. Yes, the arcane comes to eclipse everything else. They are wow'd as the arcane seems to be able to do everything every other magic was able to do and more, making everything else superfluous - who would continue following nature when the arcane could do it all and more (in their eyes). And this is how I can see them becoming unbalanced. Arcane is everything, you use it for everything, especially where you should be using no magic and letting natural biology do, because you have a body too. This is where the nightborne continue from. Whereas the Farondis maintain the spirit of the highborne from before the abuse begins to dominate.

2. Valewalker Farodin's order seemed to have highborne mages that understood this too. Remember they were made up of both primitive druids (by primitive they mean naturist magic utlised in a more crude from, not the sophisticated development that later comes with Malfurion). It also indicates not all highborne were callous, arrogant or reckless - most likely the chief offenders of that stereotype are the very palace highborne that portaled the legion in.

3. After the war of the ancients, the night elves ban the arcane - this is to prevent the legion returning. It is the reason beyond any other. It outweighs all the benefits using the arcane could be realized. And to the night elf who has learnt the lesson of humility, he would not presume that this time he can do a better job with the arcane and take down the legion - it's too risky to him. It is both wise and can be viewed as cowardly - Darth'remar views it as cowardly, the others who remain with the kaldorei view it as wisdom.

4. But Malfurion's exploration into druidsm has nothing to do with Elune or the priesthood. Wasn't the whold introduction in WC3 emphasiszing how segregated the society was. Priest and druid, female and male ? You can't ignore that. You can believe in Elune and praise the Goddess without being an acolyte or devoted follower. This is what druids do. they don't follow Elune, Cenarius makes it clear to Malfurion and Illidan that path Tyrande is on is different and has nothing to do with this. Separate. Like wise you can love and appreciate nature, but not be devoted to it like the druids. The druids had a calling after the WotA, the priests were not a part of it. They don't make tributes to Aessina or call on Cenarius or any of that. Segregated.

5. It is worth noting that Azshara pushes for much of this development, but blizzard has thrown the night elf crowd a bone I don't think many have picked up, the Queen's best projects were developed by the Shen'dralar, her most revered arcanists - the current kaldorei have the ingenuit that produced most of the arcane wonders of the kaldorei empire. If blizzard ever wanted to give htem some of their old cities back or pre-sundering grandeur they have the group for it.

Whereas the Farondis with the Nar'thalas academy seemed to be the foremost scholars of the empire, you could say where the Albert Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings of the arcane were, they are probably amongst that lot - which makes them a formidable talent to be restored to the kaldorei.

they become

Suramar has many of the motifs of the ancient Kaldorei because it is itself an ancient Kaldorei city, and the bulk of the city remains underneath further expansion and refinement by those who would become the Shal'dorei in time. Of course, they've stamped the city with their own unique imprimatur as well - as lacy Arcane affectations and physically impossible engineering litter the city and its environs. The Shal'dorei still retain a focus on the Stars and the Night, but their approach is magical instead of spiritual, everything is viewed through the lens of the Arcane fixation which predominates their society.

If there was a progression from a focus on nature to the Arcane I would imagine it would roughly be:

Kaldorei >> Farondin's people > Moonguard > Shen'drelar > Quel'dorei > Shal'dorei

Wait.. where you coming out with some of this? Some of it makes sense.. but what is this unique imprimt you are referring too that the shal'dorei have done? The city is physically unchanged. Remember, limited space situation, fixed resources..and the culture doesn't change. What changes is the peoples physical form as they starve and then further abuse the arcane to save themselves. While the architecture of suramar and the culture of Suramar is unchanged, the magical skills are improved - but we don't know what exactly is a development from after the sundering.

I know note taking is one of them, because we are told that. I assume the fake stars under trees and in the court of stars is another. I can only guess that the arcane constructs are an improvement too, the little robots. We do know their progress is very slow over the millenium, but that's fine. 10,000 years ago they are in front of all the other civilizations anyway, many of those things could have easily been part of Suramar before the fall, with a few modifications.

Tee one area we know is totally new is Chronomancy. I'm not so sure about telemancy, it could easily be one of the many things the post-sundering elves (excl shen'dralar and nightborne) lost - we know the Hyjal survivors lost most of their former knowledge and advances due to the destruction - those who were hidden in the cities would not have. Chronomancy developed post kaldorei empire. The shen'dralar would not have anything on this, this would be the nightborne's unique development.

This is what we know for sure

Elune seems to have a significant overlap with "star magic" as concerns the Kaldorei - Starshards, Starfall, and celestial abilities are tied to the Priesthood of Elune (and have been shared with their Druid kin). Personally, I think "star" and celestial magic is how the Priests and Priestesses of Elune rationalize the legacy and continued use of the Arcane, albeit in a manner sanctified or ratified by Elune's blessing.

It's not just them though, the Moonguard and Nightborne in Suramar also cast a ton of moon spells and Star spells, which would make sense as this is tied to their "children of the stars identity" .. we just don't know how or in what way exactly.

Night elf arcane magic, Elune magic and druidic magic has this unique star and moon spell signautre that is mostly arcane damage.I certainly makes their magecraft, druidsm and priesthood rather different from what we are use to of those 3 classes typically.

[Rhlor]

they literally mutated over the 10k years they have spent sucking on nightwell energies in that bubble of theirs.
no, they most definitely are not.

- - - Updated - - -



the entire night elf population (or rather what's left of them) says hi.

He speaks from a sociocultural perspective. all the current kaldorei lost what was the culture pre war of ancient

[Golden Yak]

A people changing doesn't mean they aren't 'true'.

[Beloren]

Also, the nightborne were Kaldorei aristocrats and noblemen, while Tyrande, Malfurion and the people who ended up becoming the current Night Elves were mostly a mixture of commoners and clergymen, Malfurion being effectively a cleric from a newer religion that was never adopted by the upper classes. They come from two different parts of the "original Kaldorei culture" right from the beggining. Don't forget Azshara fully intended to sacrifice commoners to the Legion as a part of her deal.

But don't forget she was also quite fine with doing that to other highborne. in fact, in the end none but the palace highborne became worthy. I suspect htis was because there were highborne who opposed her, starting with Farondis.


Also, I don't' think the current night elves and pre-sundering night elves are different in anyway. The Priesthood in many ways is unchanged, it just has to put up with living in a village instead of temples, and while it undergoes some changes, it isn't one that leaves behind any thing it formally stood for, unless it had to leave behind some of the arcane things it did.. but I don't know.

The post sundering survivors were a mixture of all castes and classes of night elves, as were those who remained in Suramar under the shield. The only exclusive communities were the Shen'dralar highborne in Eldre'thalas, and the highborne who followed Darth'remar into exile. Not all highborne did.. i think only the Sunstrider Highborne did, as they were the ones most distrusted for their role in bringing the legion.

- - - Updated - - -

they are shaldorei.

the true kaldorei doesn't exist today

Then what do you call the Shen'dralar and the Moonguard? or the demon hunters? And why do you discount the priests as true night elves? the only new kaldorei class to develop from the events of WotA was the druid and demon hunter. The mage and priest were already there, and continue in the societies.

[Rhlor]

The demon hunter is a brotherhood of people who are rejected by elven societies

the other groups do not live as the original kaldorei can live as highborne, but not in society where both the arcane and the druidic were part of society

[sillag]

idk im gonna be honest here and say ppl who keep trying to pin the pre-sundering night elf identity on a playable race are kind of looking for something that isnt ever gonna be there. and a bit mentally deficient. that story is over and we have 3 cool new takes on elves sprouting from it. nature/moon elves, super arcane elves, and blood elves who are basically the race to appeal to white supremacists. theres a little something for everyone in there. none of them are like the previous night elves. their story is over. like my buddy garrosh hellscream said back before he ruined wow forever "times change" and u arent gonna get the pre sundering night elves back. however i would argue that 2 of the 3 flavors of elves remaining are actually better. nature power is in a lot of ways the closest thing to a good power we have left in wow now that we know the light is gonna turn out to be evil, and the night elves are literally fighting on the side of hope which evil dark moon notwithstanding makes them a hot candidate for the good guys of wow. nightborne are now 100% arcane masters which is the purest source of power we have. so they might turn out to be the strongest race or at least the ones capable of the most impressive bs. and if u like blood elves but wanna not be a nazi, you can now be a void elf. so we're all winners.

but rly forget trying to find the true night elves or saying the night elves should remake their empire that they hate or the nightborne should remake their empire that they dont want. it shows u dont really understand the story or its characters.

[ravenmoon]

idk im gonna be honest here and say ppl who keep trying to pin the pre-sundering night elf identity on a playable race are kind of looking for something that isnt ever gonna be there. and a bit mentally deficient. that story is over and we have 3 cool new takes on elves sprouting from it. nature/moon elves, super arcane elves, and blood elves who are basically the race to appeal to white supremacists. theres a little something for everyone in there. none of them are like the previous night elves. their story is over. like my buddy garrosh hellscream said back before he ruined wow forever "times change" and u arent gonna get the pre sundering night elves back. however i would argue that 2 of the 3 flavors of elves remaining are actually better. nature power is in a lot of ways the closest thing to a good power we have left in wow now that we know the light is gonna turn out to be evil, and the night elves are literally fighting on the side of hope which evil dark moon notwithstanding makes them a hot candidate for the good guys of wow. nightborne are now 100% arcane masters which is the purest source of power we have. so they might turn out to be the strongest race or at least the ones capable of the most impressive bs. and if u like blood elves but wanna not be a nazi, you can now be a void elf. so we're all winners.

but rly forget trying to find the true night elves or saying the night elves should remake their empire that they hate or the nightborne should remake their empire that they dont want. it shows u dont really understand the story or its characters.

I've notuced this take on the night elves occuring since 7.1 and it is off. Firstly, the current kaldorei and their highborne are not 2 different races, nor were the lowborne some different culture or different race in pre sundering times, there weren't just 2 castes either. Some people are treating kaldorei now and kaldorei then as some different race which they are not. They arent viewing it as a story of one people. While their are night elf off shoots, the current night elves aren't one of them they are the original. The pre sundering elves are night elves, the darnassians are not some evolution or splinter of the original elf, they ARE the original elf.

Nightborne aren't some 3rd elf race any more than void elf are a 4th, they are a night elf sub race, as void elf are a high elf one. Its almost like saying Mecixans or Nigerians or Taiwanese are a different race of humans because they have clear physical differences and cultural ones. They aren't (except to the racist supremacist)

People trying to pretend the kaldorei are completely divorced from their pre sundering identity don't get them, and are just assuming that blizzards slow development of this group since wow kicked off as some indication they are stuck in long vigil mode, this is despite Illidari, highborne (2 groups) returning and development happening in cata and legion. Took a while but it came.

This weirdness is coming from people who just can't associate the nightborne with the night elves, and completely forgot or ignored the high elves are in their own way also a sub race of night elf, except they are a true evolution because they change significantly enough to have a new identity, new name, new culture everything, they became diurnal and like forsaken being a human sub race, they are a little bit more because of their new identity. But they are still elven and despite many differences, their are far more similarities, something people too caught up in the faction identity side taking keep failing to remind themselves despite the indications being in front of their eyes. Literally.

The Darnassians are Kaldorei, their identity is unchanged from pre sundering times. Their culture change is not a rejection of their pre sundering lives, it was a necessary change to prevent the Legion- the absence of the arcane is not a natural state for the night elves any more than the absence of nature magic adherence around the 1st invasion was natural either.

Both states are not the whole. When night elves became kaldorei they were operating fully in the areas of arcane, nature and Elune, this is where they accelerated, then the arcane that seemed to have no drawbacks was recognised as king so they went off kilter leaving natural stuff behind, this they now know as an error, but then the long vigil necessitated dropping the arcane. This was not also ideal, nor the kaldorei functioning as their original selves, but it was necessary, and they suppressed it till it wasn't necessary when the vigil ended.

Ever wonder why the Kaldorei don't change their name? The high elves did, the nightborne did too, but despite their cultural shift, thenkaldorei don't. The arcane parts of their identity are not forsaken, given up or lost, they just can't utilise their magic because it will bring back the Legion so they ban it and you can see the effect on society because of the long vigil, but it is a necessary state, not a remake of themselves. And when the vigil ends, they open up again.

Those who try to ignore that the kaldorei are the kaldorei don't understand them. Trying to divorce their lore sundering history from them is just silly, they haven't changed, the nightborne have, the high elves especially have, much more so than the nightborne, because for all we know the nightborne might consider themselves a unique version of Kaldorei. Which is why they are Shal'dorei and not shaldorei.

You are interpreting what was written to be Elisande's perspective as the actual reality, which isn't incorrect, you can view it like that, but it is a spin on things illustrating her point. In some ways the nightborne are the continued legacy of the kaldorei, but only from the post addiction period of the pre sundering era, not the period when arcane, nature and Ekune were in harmony. They are a night elf sub race and capture a specific point in kaldorei history, just like the cenarion circle captures the long vigil era. The core race kaldorei goes beyond either, has both aspects as both are part of their history, the half night elven Cenarians are the pure forest elf culture, whereas the nightborne are the pure arcane, but the kaldorei, they are the core group, they have both these aspects and a goddess group that underpins both.

Now not all factions of the kaldorei might be under the Darnassian banner or a unified group yet, legion introduced dreamers, Farondis, nightborne, Illidari and wardens. So the wardens have returned, 8.1.5 has Farondis seemingly involved with the alliance might they be in the fold? That just leaves Dreamweaver and illidari

[Aleksej89]

An interesting topic that could matter if the Nightelves did not become basically extinct with the events in BFA.

They were already one of the least numerous races according to lore and with the mass genocide they are now so few in number that its unlikely their race will ever recover.

But who knows what mangling blizzard will do with lore and logic...