Baine is a traitor? How?

[Arrashi]

yes but i also realize blizz doesnt actually understand the gravity of their own writing. the horde is a fascist nation but they still think they can tell us they are the underdogs just trying to make a home.

because of this they will definitely keep the blood-oath based warchief led society and we will be back for siege of orgrimmar 3 in another couple of years assuming we are dumb enough to stay subbed that long.

Funnily enough horde is as "fascist" as alliance is, something you can see from many alliance soldiers in BFA.

[Zandalariprelate]

that goes without saying. Him and Saurfang value honor, something sylvanas has none of.

the horde, the real horde, has always been about honor, honoring your ancestors, your allies, your home, even your enemies. Yet Sylvanas has none of that, she doesn't understand the hordes honor, she's never been part of it, she just destroyed for the sake of doing so.

But Saurfang was in the wagon of war and enjoyed killing young night elves soldiers without training and Baine only acts when the alliance is in danger, he didn't help the darkspear when their village was being assaulted by the kor'kron of garrosh or sending troped to fight the iron horde outside of Olin, the orc honor is pretty flexible and varies according to every orc, just look at Eitrigg he is from the same clan as Saurfang and saw the same shit and losed his children and yet you see him helping the war effort, maybe by 8.1.5 the leaders start to plan their own plan to either overthrow Sylvanad or let the alliance do the heavy lifting and with their tropes heavily reduced after a long fight with the forsakens, they can try some peace deal or continue the war which they can still win since the forsakens probably didn't go down without a tough fight

[sillag]

Funnily enough horde is as "fascist" as alliance is, something you can see from many alliance soldiers in BFA.

not rly. the alliance isnt a fascist nation, whereas the horde is. individual alliance soldiers may embrace fascist ideals, but they are not serving an inherently fascist cause like the horde is.

[Arrashi]

not rly. the alliance isnt a fascist nation, whereas the horde is. individual alliance soldiers may embrace fascist ideals, but they are not serving an inherently fascist cause like the horde is.

Well first and foremost you don't really understand what fascist even means and just throw it as "smart word to say {bad people}"

Its kinda funny because majority of "fascist" remarks is made by alliance characters.

[GreenJesus]

After some research and deliberation, I say that is questionable at best, I couldn't find a single information about Theramore actively taking part on the conflict that occurred during Cataclysm (not do I think Jaina would ever allow that).

The Taurajo attack was conducted Northwatch Hold, on false pretenses that the Tauren were planning an attack and still it was conducted mercifully, sparing civilians and being recognized by Baine as a fair target.

Fort Triumph expasion happened with the support of Northwatch, and in a single instance it's said it received supplies from Theramore (as much as I'd like to dwelve in this fictional warfare discussion, I think there is no point debating what kind of supplies because that would be only speculation).

I still believe Theramore was only a diplomatic hub, since I haven't been presented any proof of otherwise.

About Kirin Tor participation in the conflict, they only took part to defend Theramore from the Horde aggression (helping evacuate and reducing casualties) and explicitly saying they wouldn't partake in the conflict, so remaining neutral.

About the Fair Warning deal, you see, war must have a purpose, (even on video game fictional wars, otherwise it's not believable), in the Taurajo example I gave, even with we consider the false pretense, it was to stop an attack. Usually you go for diplomacy to archive your goals when that doesn't work, War. My point is you are supposed to name your demands.

The point is Theramore haven't had any strategic value for the Horde, it's was in the middle of the swamp, it had no control of valuable resources that the horde needed, it was not blocking any vital waypoint, still they used full force on that, being disproportional to anything we have seen even today.

The horde attack was unjustified, for us it's clear that it only happened because Blizzard needed an excuse to kickstart the Mists of Pandaria conflict, but in the Warcraft context it don't make sense, that's why I don't believe Baine to be considered a traitor in this particular case

Exactly. Baine didn't care that his people were killed and their town raided. " oh well... I guess I won't retaliate. Let's all just sing Kum-bay-ah at the camp fire and have some gay buttsex with ANduin. Anyone that decides to retaliate for that invasion will be banished btw.." What a fucking lame character.

[kasuke06]

Jaina enabled the guys who did Taurajo and fed supplies to the Alliance for the whole of Cataclysm. Baine does not vocally oppose the attack, but he does covertly warn Jaina, allowing her to better prepare and cost more Horde lives in their attack on a military target. Not that Baine's ever given a shit about the lives of his race and faction, to be fair.

As we all know, the only appropriate way to deal with an enemy shipping hub is a surprise WMD developed by a formerly neutral organization.(fun fact, the mana bomb used on theramore is lorewise, the biggest one ever used.) Kinda see why Baine doesn't exactly see eye to eye with "garrosh with tits".

[sillag]

Well first and foremost you don't really understand what fascist even means and just throw it as "smart word to say {bad people}"

Its kinda funny because majority of "fascist" remarks is made by alliance characters.

idk what to tell u dude my main is a tauren druid. the horde is a fascist nation. the blood oath is basically pure fascism in a fantasy setting and we can see its effects in repeatedly inspiring insane wars of expansion and racial cleansing. now bear in mind every member of the horde took this oath. yes u can say oh but sky admiral rogers wants to kill all the orcs and thats fair. she may well be a war criminal on the level of every orc general. but she still isnt serving a fascist nation. the alliance has managed to somehow remain pure in its cause mostly by blizz not bothering to write them an interesting story. but as is so often the case the best hope for a good lore in wow is to be ignored completely by the writers.

[GreenJesus]

As we all know, the only appropriate way to deal with an enemy shipping hub is a surprise WMD developed by a formerly neutral organization.(fun fact, the mana bomb used on theramore is lorewise, the biggest one ever used.) Kinda see why Baine doesn't exactly see eye to eye with "garrosh with tits".

But Baine didn't even know about the mana bomb until after it happened so that doesn't even effect his decision to warn the alliance. It wasn't part of the equation. He warned the enemy of an attack in war. He's a traitor.

[kasuke06]

But Baine didn't even know about the mana bomb until after it happened so that doesn't even effect his decision to warn the alliance. It wasn't part of the equation. He warned the enemy of an attack in war. He's a traitor.

Wow, some real blood thirst there. So just how much murder can your conscience take? Innocent women and children in teldrasil? Your own once they realize they're little better than the monsters who actively try to kill the whole planet that they supposedly stopped? Maybe when they blade comes to your own throat you'll realize that sylvanus isn't in favor of winning any war except the one against everything that lives.

It's not exactly unthinkable that the tauren who pretty explicitly just want peace, would be opposed to war plans that amount to "Hey, let's just murder everyone, no prisoners. especially the women and children." Maybe sylvie should police her own war room a little better.

[Gann Stonespire]

Wow, some real blood thirst there. So just how much murder can your conscience take? Innocent women and children in teldrasil? Your own once they realize they're little better than the monsters who actively try to kill the whole planet that they supposedly stopped? Maybe when they blade comes to your own throat you'll realize that sylvanus isn't in favor of winning any war except the one against everything that lives.

It's not exactly unthinkable that the tauren who pretty explicitly just want peace, would be opposed to war plans that amount to "Hey, let's just murder everyone, no prisoners. especially the women and children." Maybe sylvie should police her own war room a little better.

Baine's actions resulted in the deaths of those tauren soldiers, their blood is on his hands.

[korijenkins]

Warning of an attack on a civilian population in a time of peace is not treason.

When did he kill Horde troops to traffic anyone from the Alliance?

Apparently die-hard horde (die-horde?) fanboys don't understand logic.

[GreenJesus]

not rly. the alliance isnt a fascist nation, whereas the horde is. individual alliance soldiers may embrace fascist ideals, but they are not serving an inherently fascist cause like the horde is.

um.. the alliance is a monarchy... You do know that the Alliance isn't a democracy right? Monarchy isn't that far above fascism.. lol

[sillag]

um.. they are a monarchy... You do know that the Alliance isn't a democracy right?

monarchies arent necessarily fascism. there are actually more options out there than democracy/fascism. that said the alliance is a league of independent nations whereas the horde is a totalitarian dictatorship in which all cultures are subsumed by the blood oath and forced to declare unwavering loyalty directly to the warchief.

this is what makes thalyssra saying the horde seemed like a good fit because the nightborne could keep their culture so laughable btw. she basically did no research.

[GreenJesus]

monarchies arent necessarily fascism. there are actually more options out there than democracy/fascism. that said the alliance is a league of independent nations whereas the horde is a totalitarian dictatorship in which all cultures are subsumed by the blood oath and forced to declare unwavering loyalty directly to the warchief.

What happens to peasants that don't declare allegiance to their King because they weren't paid? They get an adventurer sent after them

[sillag]

What happens to peasants that don't declare allegiance to Anduin? They get an adventurer sent after them.

incorrect. there are actually no instances in wow in which alliance peasants who defect from stormwind are killed by stormwind for the crime of defection. im sure there may be criminal proceedings if they dont pay taxes to the crown but we have seen lots of instances of humans who moved between kingdoms and seemed to do so freely enough. also keep in mind all those booty bay human pirates came from somewhere.

meanwhile you cant say the same for the horde. they are bound by the blood oath which is unbreakable. so if you ever see an orc pirate you will know they are a traitor to the warchief and should be kill on sight for the horde.

thats blizzards writing not mine.

[Synros]

Baine's been a traitor since Mists when he warned the Alliance of a Horde attack on Theramore behind the back of his Warchief.

His current treason is unsurprising, since he does kill Horde troops doing their jobs to covertly traffic a member of the Alliance back to them behind the back of his faction.

If Baine is a "traitor", then Sylvanas sure as shit is. You know, considering she indiscriminately murders members of the Horde for pleasure and to further her personally goals, helped overthrow Garrosh, and made a secret pact with a death god that cost the lives of members of the Horde. You Sylvanas fanboys are such fucking hypocrites.

[Xath]

What happens to peasants that don't declare allegiance to their King because they weren't paid? They get an adventurer sent after them

When freaking Onyxia was running shit

[Gann Stonespire]

If Baine is a "traitor", then Sylvanas sure as shit is. You know, considering she indiscriminately murders members of the Horde for pleasure and to further her personally goals, helped overthrow Garrosh, and made a secret pact with a death god that cost the lives of members of the Horde. You Sylvanas fanboys are such fucking hypocrites.

That doesn't stop Baine from being a traitor who left his tauren to die.

[Stelio Kontos]

"Just following orders" is a valid defense for committing heinous acts - Horde 2018

I mean, unless it's Garithos or any of the other non-Horde who used that reasoning *against* the Horde, that shit's wrong yo.

[Zyky]

Please leave all the fanboy hyperbole crap at the door.

I keep seeing Baine called a traitor, and I don't understand how. If you don't like the character, for whatever reason, that's fine. But to call him a traitor?

I know has questioned Sylvanus, but at this point, hasn't everyone? I think even Nathanos has questioned her, atleast internally, especially after she killed her own people at the great Undead Family Reunion in Arathi.

I know he was sending letters to Anduin. Communication with a foreign leader does not mean he's a traitor. At that time, there were skirmishes and battles, but the Alliance and Horde were not at all out war.

So is it the same hyperbolic crap that people say about Saurfang, or has there been some action taken by Baine to actively turn on the Horde and join the
Alliance that I am not aware of?

He went against the Warchief and gave a valuable Prisoner of War back to the Alliance behind her back.