Baine is a traitor? How?

[mickybrighteyes]

idk what to tell u dude my main is a tauren druid. the horde is a fascist nation. the blood oath is basically pure fascism in a fantasy setting and we can see its effects in repeatedly inspiring insane wars of expansion and racial cleansing.

Considering how pretty much every horde race origin (almost) was subject to 'racial cleansing' by a certain blue banner with a golden feline on it... I think the blood oath faction is hard pressed to even come CLOSE to actions of the so called 'good guys'.

But most people disregard this due to how they decided to write that War Lead in for BfA and ignore the whole vague as hell (cause awareness of events wasn't properly accounted for) full out military assault for revenge story arc.

[Axxil]

Calling Baine a traitor is equivalent to calling a German soldier who didn't want to follow orders during World War II a traitor, when history is written, and the evil is overthrown, people will know who was on the right side.

Which is a textbook example of being a traitor. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, you follow orders. Otherwise, you betray your loyalties.

[SardaukarMikhail]

Baine did the right thing

[Kyphael]

Which is a textbook example of being a traitor. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, you follow orders. Otherwise, you betray your loyalties.

Sure, if you prefer to be a monster than a traitor, more power to you.

[Hubbl3]

Sure, if you prefer to be a monster than a traitor, more power to you.

What is the point you're trying to make? Baine is a traitor. Traitor and "being good" are not exclusive to each other, but this is not what OP asked.

[Daevelian]

Which is a textbook example of being a traitor. It doesn't matter if you agree or not, you follow orders. Otherwise, you betray your loyalties.

So, what if you never voted for or agreed with the tyrant who was made leader of your <insert group here> and you choose not to follow their orders? Are you still a traitor if you never had any form of loyalty whatsoever to them?

This is in general as well, not specific to Baine.

[GrossOnToast]

i dont see him exactly as a "traitor" but its easy to see why people would question his loyalty, and draw that conclusion... for me, based on his characteristics/background, i see him as a narrative catalyst. in game he seems to be the devils advocate that only serves to highlight Sylvanas' "Questionable methods and direction" for the plot. Seems to me to be the whipping post or the in game representative of the playerbases division. i think this was done on purpose 100%

[Super Dickmann]

If Baine is a "traitor", then Sylvanas sure as shit is. You know, considering she indiscriminately murders members of the Horde for pleasure and to further her personally goals, helped overthrow Garrosh, and made a secret pact with a death god that cost the lives of members of the Horde. You Sylvanas fanboys are such fucking hypocrites.

The first one doesn't happen, Sylv is a traitor for turning on Garrosh, no argument there, though Baine both did that and has now betrayed both of his Warchiefs to an enemy power while they still had widespread support during a total war, but siding with Helya had zero negative consequences for the Horde. The Horde's new ally only functions on the basis of a deal with a death god to whom they sell a million unwilling souls. Even then, this still fails to give Baine any qualities of his own, it just means you can barely, through fanfiction, make him sound about on par with a villainous caricature.

@Xath

Posting here since I got lost in the shuffle of the million Sylvanas threads. I'll look into since it sounds fun, but no, I don't back Sylvanas because she's omnicidal, especially since if she is, she's failing spectacularly at it and even lies about it to herself in her internal monologue. I like Sylvanas because she's the only one alongside Gallywix who's actually advancing the faction war this expansion is supposed to be about and the only character not in thrall to the most insufferably flawless figure the writers have ever produced, i.e Anduin. She's not good, she's a complete caricature in this one, she's simply preferable to everyone being in the same state of vegetative perfection as the Alliance is in this one. I take it you aren't exactly looking forward to the Alliance forgiving the Horde for Brennadam, Teldrassil, the War of Thorns and so forth, just because you booted Sylvanas at the end.

@kasuke06

Previously neutral has no weight. It means not neutral anymore, just like the tauren would know around the time Theramore forces took over half the Barrens and they were forced to build a big wall to prevent an Alliance invasion. The Great Wall wasn't meant to ward off quillboar you know. As for the moral implications of the mana bomb. That it has any in setting is based purely on real life ideas creeping in that don't match up with what else is common in setting. There's no appreciable moral difference between it and a big regular bomb and in the course of play we routinely do things like suck out people's souls and send them to burn in the fiery pits of hell to summon demons, drive them insane with pure entropic magic or raise them as undead ghouls. Also, Baine didn't know if its existence by the time he committed treason anyway.

[Xath]

The first one doesn't happen, Sylv is a traitor for turning on Garrosh, no argument there, though Baine both did that and has now betrayed both of his Warchiefs to an enemy power while they still had widespread support during a total war, but siding with Helya had zero negative consequences for the Horde. The Horde's new ally only functions on the basis of a deal with a death god to whom they sell a million unwilling souls. Even then, this still fails to give Baine any qualities of his own, it just means you can barely, through fanfiction, make him sound about on par with a villainous caricature.

@Xath

Posting here since I got lost in the shuffle of the million Sylvanas threads. I'll look into since it sounds fun, but no, I don't back Sylvanas because she's omnicidal, especially since if she is, she's failing spectacularly at it and even lies about it to herself in her internal monologue. I like Sylvanas because she's the only one alongside Gallywix who's actually advancing the faction war this expansion is supposed to be about and the only character not in thrall to the most insufferably flawless figure the writers have ever produced, i.e Anduin. She's not good, she's a complete caricature in this one, she's simply preferable to everyone being in the same state of vegetative perfection as the Alliance is in this one. I take it you aren't exactly looking forward to the Alliance forgiving the Horde for Brennadam, Teldrassil, the War of Thorns and so forth, just because you booted Sylvanas at the end.

@kasuke06

Previously neutral has no weight. It means not neutral anymore, just like the tauren would know around the time Theramore forces took over half the Barrens and they were forced to build a big wall to prevent an Alliance invasion. The Great Wall wasn't meant to ward off quillboar you know. As for the moral implications of the mana bomb. That it has any in setting is based purely on real life ideas creeping in that don't match up with what else is common in setting. There's no appreciable moral difference between it and a big regular bomb and in the course of play we routinely do things like suck out people's souls and send them to burn in the fiery pits of hell to summon demons, drive them insane with pure entropic magic or raise them as undead ghouls. Also, Baine didn't know if its existence by the time he committed treason anyway.

But it doesn't make sense to advance the faction war at this point she worries about there not being peace in a few generations but a few generations is enough to restore the populations demolished on both sides by the legions attack. Remember when we went to fight the legion they were still on azeroth killing the people left behind. Jaina was one of the few mega characters left on azeroth and was fighting basically the whole time as we saw in her comic. A war now makes zero sense at all.

[Super Dickmann]

But it doesn't make sense to advance the faction war at this point she worries about there not being peace in a few generations but a few generations is enough to restore the populations demolished on both sides by the legions attack. Remember when we went to fight the legion they were still on azeroth killing the people left behind. Jaina was one of the few mega characters left on azeroth and was fighting basically the whole time as we saw in her comic. A war now makes zero sense at all.

Her argumentation makes sense in story, it's just that out of story we know it to be wrong because Anduin and the Alliance would never do what she and Saurfang believe them to be willing to do. Essentially, the way she sells it is that the Alliance and Horde interests are mutually exclusive due to the bad blood between them and what a resource race of this source can cause, despite their earlier alliance. If I had to use a tired simile, think of the US and USSR, except they actually went to war and killed each other for 30 years and have sacked each other's cities and committed a bunch of crimes against each other. Also just last year the ostensibly peaceful ruler of the Alliance had a hit on the Warchief of the Horde during a war with Satan. If the Alliance were willing to attack during the apocalypse, then their superior industrial ability, backed by azerite, would ensure that they were the preeminent power in the world and the Horde would eventually lose out and be either absorbed or destroyed.

I'll also note that Sylvanas's claims here are not wrong. When Anduin shows the azerite to his fellow leaders, long before the Horde strikes in Kalimdor everyone except him wants to use the material to destroy the Horde. He reluctantly allows azerite weapon use to develop and there's the whole Stormheim mishap. Does that make her overall grounds right? No. We know for a fact she's wrong. But it's a plausible motive and it's one the Horde would have no trouble believing from what they've seen. Starting war on these bases, not with genocide mind, makes sense from this view of political interest. inaction from this viewpoint would mean waiting out until the other side has the equivalent of nuclear warheads the next time one of theirs goes rogue.

It's not a bad setup for a story. It's all so much fluff given that it's all tossed in the bin to make a story about how Sylvanas is pure evil and her opposition is pure good, but as a hook for a plot it's not bad. But if with your post you mean that the world is too wrecked to sustain a conflict, I agree completely, but Blizzard ignored this shit. By all accounts the Legion should've been able to level the planet from orbit with all the ships they had flying from Argus, but hey.

[Beerbill Society]

Exactly. Baine didn't care that his people were killed and their town raided. " oh well... I guess I won't retaliate. Let's all just sing Kum-bay-ah at the camp fire and have some gay buttsex with ANduin. Anyone that decides to retaliate for that invasion will be banished btw.." What a fucking lame character.

Lol I can't argue against that.

[Arrashi]

idk what to tell u dude my main is a tauren druid. the horde is a fascist nation. the blood oath is basically pure fascism in a fantasy setting and we can see its effects in repeatedly inspiring insane wars of expansion and racial cleansing. now bear in mind every member of the horde took this oath. yes u can say oh but sky admiral rogers wants to kill all the orcs and thats fair. she may well be a war criminal on the level of every orc general. but she still isnt serving a fascist nation. the alliance has managed to somehow remain pure in its cause mostly by blizz not bothering to write them an interesting story. but as is so often the case the best hope for a good lore in wow is to be ignored completely by the writers.

Again, you don't understand what fascist nation is and use that word as generic word for "bad people".

[Trassk]

He went against the Warchief and gave a valuable Prisoner of War back to the Alliance behind her back.

She doesn't represent the horde, she only represents herself, so going against her in an effort to quell the war she created isn't going against the horde.

[Arrashi]

She doesn't represent the horde, she only represents herself, so going against her in an effort to quell the war she created isn't going against the horde.

And who exactly represents horde ?

[Super Dickmann]

It's another Warcraft 3 babbies tell us what the Horde is supposed to be on the basis of its existence under one guy for two years fifteen years ago, all prior and later portrayals running counter to it be damned, episode.

It's all so tiresome.

[Arpin]

Traitor or not, you are all talking like that's a bad thing right now. Sylvanas is a horrible leader and needs to be replaced, going against her is nothing but a good thing. A civil war is always a treason, but it could be for the better. The whole reason USA exists, for example, is because people rebelled. Same applies for other similar situations. Treason, betrayal, rebellion, call it what you will. But overthrowing an objectively bad government/leader is not something I would call bad. Baine is loyal not to Sylvanas, but for his ideals about the Horde. And that's how it should be.

And if you think Sylvanas is a good leader... well, sucks to be you.

[NatePsy]

My take? He isn't. He saw an injustice that bore zero honour to our faction, you basically just drag the Horde and what it stands for through the mud when you raise someone into undeath and proceed to mind control them with the purpose of weaponizing them. That to me is far more of a traitor to your faction than Baine is for doing what was right because he saw an injustice.

It is funny how these same people that call Baine a traitor for rising against the Warchief's plan when it's Sylvanas but you better bet your bottom dollar they were likely cheering for Baine/Vol'jin when they went against Garrosh' plans.

[Dagoth Ur]

She doesn't represent the horde, she only represents herself, so going against her in an effort to quell the war she created isn't going against the horde.

No offense, but I feel like you're buying exactly what the writers are so clumsily trying to sell us. What you say is exactly word for word how I suspect it'll happen in story, and it'll be ridiculous of course.

If Alliance seriously buys this "it was all Sylvanas, let's be friends now!!" crap, I'll lose the little faith I still have left in them. Assuming Sylvie gets the leg, It would make more sense if Alliance doesn't allow rest of the Horde to scapegoat everything on her but holds rest of the faction accountable too. I doubt our treasure will allow that though.

[Super Dickmann]

It is funny how these same people that call Baine a traitor for rising against the Warchief's plan when it's Sylvanas but you better bet your bottom dollar they were likely cheering for Baine/Vol'jin when they went against Garrosh' plans.

You wound me, the conduct of characters like Baine and even more so Aethas during Garrosh's tenure is the main reason I shit on them. Then again, "You didn't say that when Garrosh was in charge (even though you did), gotcha, Baine haters!" is only slightly behind "He's not a traitor because Horde values were always killing your friendly soldiers so you can traffic an alliance member behind your faction's back!" in terms of desperate excuses to make that walking burger look vaguely defensible as a character.

[Trassk]

No offense, but I feel like you're buying exactly what the writers are so clumsily trying to sell us. What you say is exactly word for word how I suspect it'll happen in story, and it'll be ridiculous of course.

If Alliance seriously buys this "it was all Sylvanas, let's be friends now!!" crap, I'll lose the little faith I still have left in them. Assuming Sylvie gets the leg, It would make more sense if Alliance doesn't allow rest of the Horde to scapegoat everything on her but holds rest of the faction accountable too. I doubt our treasure will allow that though.

I've been saying on other threads the projection of this story is so dam obvious. Blizzard writers have used up all their creativity points and now everyone can easily predict the outcome of the stories