So, which choice is the honorable one?

[Super Dickmann]

That never happened... There's a difference between two forces fighting a mutual enemy separately and joining forces to fight them together... Saurfang and Anduin are doing the former... They have not joined forces, they are simply staying out of each other's way.

When the enemy leader lets you go after you tell him how you needed his help and hoped he'd do your job for you so badly that you spared him and threw the fight, then rely on his good will to free you after you refuse to be freed by your allies from the faction you claim to represent, you are not joining with that person. Come on, even you don't really believe that, you're just making this sad sell to try and salvage Saurfang for the consumption of Horde posters.

[Schattenlied]

you spared him and threw the fight

= Saurfang not standing in Anduin's way because they have a mutual enemy.

then rely on his good will to free you

= Anduin not standing in Saurfang's way because they have a mutual enemy.

you refuse to be freed by your allies from the faction you claim to represent

Because they are working for said mutual enemy.

They have not joined forces, they are both on their own doing their own thing right now.

[Dastreus]

Plus I'm spitting in the face of Vol'jin's dying wish to have Sylvanas lead the Horde.

Vol'jin was deceived. Probably by N'zoth. Been calling it ever since Legion. (Come on "the spirits" told you to make a psychopath the warchief? HAHAHAHA) N'zoth's all "bro trust me, I'm a Loa" like the dude in the window meme "trust me I'm a fairy".

[Caerule]

Honestly I don't get why people seem to be massively siding with Sylvanas.

"I don't want to be a traitor!"
Bah. What do you think you were in MoP? You didn't kill Vol'jin, even if his death was the Warchief's will. You kept that shit secret. Then turned on the Kor'kron and saved the Darkspear. Then helped lead a rebellion. In the middle of a war, too.

Garrosh was a madman, but Sylvanas is so unhinged it makes Garrosh look like am amateur.
There's loyalty, which is earned. And then there's obedience.

We've had the Vol'jin moment where she turned on the orc racial leader.
In a few weeks, it'll be clear from quests that Vol'jin did not choose Sylvanas, but was manipulated.
She's stealing people's will. Using plague, even on our own. Raising our dead. Taking down other leaders that disagree. Allying us with slavers. Bleeding the planet dry.
The world has lost two of its capitols by her orders.
From datamined dialogue, she's even planning to use Old God power through Xalatath' blade, like Garrosh with Y'shaarj heart.

It is time for this madness to end. It is time for rebellion.

Honestly this feels as if people just find her more charismatic than Garrosh.

[mickybrighteyes]

That never happened... There's a difference between two forces fighting a mutual enemy separately and joining forces to fight them together... Saurfang and Anduin are doing the former... They have not joined forces, they are simply staying out of each other's way.

The muddied thing is that Saurfang was captured, locked up and in Stormwind's territory by choice. Him getting out makes things a bit... off. what deal did he cut to get out of the stockades or what did the High King allow?

It certainly seems that they have, in some way, joined forces.
@Caerule

if it turns out that way... it's just blatant soo all over again and we can just put this whole lore thing to rest and move on. Lay the story down next to the graves of 40m raiding and [insert favorite] class fantasy ideas. Only thing worse than that would be SC2 style 'redemption' (it wasn't really redemption....) arc where Sylvanas fuses multiple opposing forces to save reality.

[ONCHEhap]

I'm not siding with Saurfang,I'm siding against Sylvanas.

On my end,this isn't about honor or anything like that,I'm an Ebon Knight,and letting another abomination like Arthas rise without doing anything really isn't for me.If it means Saurfang,Zekhan and Baine will be on my side,then so be it,I'm not going to say no to having allies am I?

[Caerule]

The muddied thing is that Saurfang was captured, locked up and in Stormwind's territory by choice. Him getting out makes things a bit... off. what deal did he cut to get out of the stockades or what did the High King allow?

It certainly seems that they have, in some way, joined forces.

We've seen their encounter in cinematic though. Anduin just opened the door for him. No demands. No agreements. No promises or discussions about cooperation or later treaties. Possibly he knew that Saurfang would sit his ass back down if Anduin put forth any conditions to his aid, or did not feel he was an accomplished enough diplomat to make Saurfang agree to anything. Either way, while Anduin may have scored some goodwill there, no deal was forged.

Saurfang will choose what he deems best for the Horde. This may very well even include continuing the war. Same way Orgrim Doomhammer continued the war after overthrowing Blackhand. You might call Anduin naïve because of this. But, I think I would describe him as desperate.

There was no downside to releasing Saurfang. Division in the Horde has always been a great foil to them. It's why they lost the second war. It troubled them in the third war. It ended Garrosh' reign. Saurfang's freedom can lead to any of the following results:

1. It distracts Sylvanas' Horde.
2. It causes strive within the Horde.
3. It splits the Horde into factions that war amongst themselves.
4. Sylvanas is overthrown, and a peace is made.
5. Sylvanas is overthrown, and the Alliance faces a more honorable foe.

Any of these options is beneficial to the Alliance and would save Alliance lives. And the Alliance lives is what Anduin cares about, and why this costly war has him desperate.

Long story short: Anduin failed to actually join forces with Saurfang, but there is no downside to putting that piece back onto the board for him.

[mickybrighteyes]

We've seen their encounter in cinematic though. Anduin just opened the door for him. No demands. No agreements. No promises or discussions about cooperation or later treaties.

Was there another cinematic or just teh lost honor one. cause Lost Honor seems like it'd be missing some details

Possibly he knew that Saurfang would sit his ass back down if Anduin put forth any conditions to his aid, or did not feel he was an accomplished enough diplomat to make Saurfang agree to anything. Either way, while Anduin may have scored some goodwill there, no deal was forged.

this would show an Anduin that hasn't really been getting much of any showing... one that thinks

Saurfang will choose what he deems best for the Horde. This may very well even include continuing the war. Same way Orgrim Doomhammer continued the war after overthrowing Blackhand. You might call Anduin naïve because of this. But, I think I would describe him as desperate.

I find the current story of Saurfang to be riding the line between him having his own death march and someone trying to hamfist a very botched idea of honor... I have no reason to assume the horde's best interest is Saurfang's mind since every time he gets screen time he seems to rush forward to get his warrior's death.

There was no downside to releasing Saurfang. Division in the Horde has always been a great foil to them. It's why they lost the second war. It troubled them in the third war. It ended Garrosh' reign. Saurfang's freedom can lead to any of the following results:

1. It distracts Sylvanas' Horde.
2. It causes strive within the Horde.
3. It splits the Horde into factions that war amongst themselves.
4. Sylvanas is overthrown, and a peace is made.
5. Sylvanas is overthrown, and the Alliance faces a more honorable foe.

Any of these options is beneficial to the Alliance and would save Alliance lives. And the Alliance lives is what Anduin cares about, and why this costly war has him desperate.

The problem here is that options 1 through 3 are options Anduin is incapable of doing himself (what wth his empathic super powers acting up because of intent to do harm). Also... again would indicate that he is capable of higher thought than posturing to be morally better than his opposition.

Long story short: Anduin failed to actually join forces with Saurfang, but there is no downside to putting that piece back onto the board for him.

I disagree. I think the plot has left a bit of a hole around this so we can get a surprise.

If he wants what is best for the horde, then he should have long since realized the best course of action is a forced peace and that neither side is capable of leaving well enough alone. I know a lot of people would think "no... it's taking out sylvanas" except that regardless of sylvanas' actions, stormwind wa still going to butt their noses into events either way.

[Stormwolf64]

How does blizzard plan to canonize this? Are they planning on writing 4 different stories from this point or will the choice at the end stop mattering?

[Maljinwo]

No, that's Wrathion's fault.

Except that Varian stopped Thrall from executing Garrosh and ending him once and for all

How does blizzard plan to canonize this? Are they planning on writing 4 different stories from this point or will the choice at the end stop mattering?

Mecha Nathanos appears and destroys everyone who defied Sylvanas, turning them into undead forms of their characters, erasing the Alliance and handing over Azeroth to Sylvanas.
He is still unable to have sex with an undead body and is sad.

[Budong]

At this point it doesn't matter if you like/agree with Sylvanas or not. Barring some kind of contrived intervention the only way the Horde survives is by completely destroying the Alliance. Only Sylvanas has what it takes to accomplish that.

[Schattenlied]

Except that Varian stopped Thrall from executing Garrosh and ending him once and for all

That still doesn't make it Varian's fault, he didn't make Wrathion break Garrosh out of jail and time travel him to an alternate universe.

- - - Updated - - -

At this point it doesn't matter if you like/agree with Sylvanas or not. Barring some kind of contrived intervention the only way the Horde survives is by completely destroying the Alliance. Only Sylvanas has what it takes to accomplish that.

You say that as if Anduin wouldn't be perfectly fine with Sylvanas being dead and someone not insane, like Saurfang or Baine, being put in charge... Anduin doesn't want war, he's intentionally avoiding killing more Horde than is absolutely necessary.

[Frontenac]

Blizzard has outright stated that the Horde has to redefine itself in this expansion and that the choices we make as players will have a "big payoff" at the end. If as a Horde character I want a honorable Horde, which choices should I go with?

If I side with Sylvanas, I'm agreeing to support outright atrocities such as the Burning of Teldrassil and the forced Forsaken-ization of Night Elves and other Alliance members. That does not seem to be very honorable. Moreover, by siding with Sylvanas I would be betraying Saurfang who saved my character back during the Northrend Campaign.

If I side with Saurfang, I'm betraying my oath to the Warchief. Plus I'm spitting in the face of Vol'jin's dying wish to have Sylvanas lead the Horde. Not only am I aiding a traitor who in turn is aiding the Alliance, I am also betraying the trust of two of my Warchiefs. This does not seem to be very honorable either.

Same situation happens in 8.1.5.

If I side with Sylvanas, I'm snitching on fellow Horde members and selling out one of the only Horde leaders who's committed to achieving peace. If I side with Baine, I'm actively aiding the Alliance war effort and even murdering fellow Horde soldiers.

It seems like all four choices are inherently dishonorable. Is there any way to play Horde in this expansion without being a hypocrite? How do I regain my honor?

It's like Saurfang said: "Make sure you know the difference between loyalty and honor, and pray you never have to choose."

[Maljinwo]

That still doesn't make it Varian's fault, he didn't make Wrathion break Garrosh out of jail and time travel him to an alternate universe.

It was still Varian who allowed Garrosh to keep his life.
Sure, he wasn't the asshat who wanted an Alternate Universe adventure.

But there was no downside to allowing Thrall to smash his head with Doomhammer

[mickybrighteyes]

It was still Varian who allowed Garrosh to keep his life.
Sure, he wasn't the asshat who wanted an Alternate Universe adventure.

But there was no downside to allowing Thrall to smash his head with Doomhammer

by that logic it's thrall's fault since he put him in power in the first place.....

[Grazrug]

= Saurfang not standing in Anduin's way because they have a mutual enemy.

= Anduin not standing in Saurfang's way because they have a mutual enemy.

Because they are working for said mutual enemy.

They have not joined forces, they are both on their own doing their own thing right now.

Nice saurfang apologism you have there, really. Blizzard got you fooled.

To answer the op, whatever gets Baine killed is the right way to do. He was a burden to the horde story since he took leadership of the taurens.

[Maljinwo]

by that logic it's thrall's fault since he put him in power in the first place.....

Thrall's fault is noted. Yet Garrosh's actions were not triggered directly by Thrall. But by his inability to lead the Horde itself.
Varian let him live after everything he had done, and it's his direct input that allowed Garrosh to survive the Siege.

EDIT: Sorry if it seems i'm moving goalposts or something like that. I'm not saying that Varian is the one who said "cool, let's go to an alternate dimension" but that it was his decision that was directly responsible for the stuff that followed.
Also, this is completely off-topic from the OP and sorry for derailing this

[mickybrighteyes]

Thrall's fault is noted. Yet Garrosh's actions were not triggered directly by Thrall. But by his inability to lead the Horde itself.
Varian let him live after everything he had done, and it's his direct input that allowed Garrosh to survive the Siege.

Garrosh's actions are a direct manifestation of thrall's input...

Thrall is the one who dragged Garrosh out of Nagrand and had him lead the Horde armies. Thrall is the one who appointed Garrosh to the position of Warchief. The state of the horde that Garrosh was stuck with leading was what Thrall made it to be.

Seems you're forgetting just how Garrosh came to be who he was.

- - - Updated - - -

Nice saurfang apologism you have there, really. Blizzard got you fooled.

To answer the op, whatever gets Baine killed is the right way to do. He was a burden to the horde story since he took leadership of the taurens.

to be fair, story book Baine is so much better than in game Baine... but they keep having to make him a cartooney counterpoint to other hamfisted cartoon characters they're shipping for villain status.

edit:

Like for example there was a lovely story where Baine was stuck in much the same spot he is being shown now. Dealing with Garrosh and homeland struggles. Garrosh goes off after awhile angry about Baine seeming to be unable to handle his own shit and gets way in over his head. Baine shows up in teh mess of things and calmly handles the shit, pulls Garrosh out of the mess and politely tells Garrosh to go fuck himself and everything continues as normal.

We will never see that Baine in game

[Deleted]

I hate Sylvanas, but Blizzard have ironically made me hate Saurfang more with the way he's been written - no doubt entirely unintentionally.

Saurfang was fully onboard with the war until the burning of the tree. He was ENJOYING himself in the novels for the first time in a long time because he was fighting a "good" war, he was also the only reason it happened. Sylvanas asked him to organize it, which he did, because she knew the horde wouldn't really follow her into battle, she needed him to be the icon, at least initially.

The war obviously didn't turn out as Saurfang has hoped, but even if we pretend Sylvanas isn't a monster, things go wrong in war. Things rarely go to plan. This war could have deviated from Saurfangs nebulous moral code even if he'd been left in complete control.

His response is to just drop it and do the wartime equivalent of rage quitting the raid and fucking off, leaving everyone else to mop up the mess. Plenty of young faced recruits dragged into a glorious war at Saurfangs behest, only to get stuck in the meat grinder while Saurfang disappears because it isn't going right. The orcs getting dragged into the ground by roots and buried alive by Malfurion? Saurfangs fault, he was in the fight before the tree was burning.

The arrogant and self serving attitude would be bad enough IF the entire horde shared his moral compass and strict view on honor, the orcish satisfaction with dying an honorable death - but they don't, it's now a ragtag group. The trolls and tauren are probably less gungho about an honorable death, the elves sure as hell don't have that as an underlying ethos and good grief the forsaken certainly don't.

Tapping out after starting a war because you don't like how it's going rubs me the wrong way even more than Sylvanas does.

How does blizzard plan to canonize this? Are they planning on writing 4 different stories from this point or will the choice at the end stop mattering?

Probably telltale it - you get to make your choices along the way but it will all converge into the same ending where your choice doesn't really matter much - either an eventual forcing into siding against Sylvanas because she does something Blizzard decide your character can't side with, or everyone siding with Sylvanas against a greater evil before she's exiled or sidelined once it's defeated etc.

[Thetruth1400]

It seems like all four choices are inherently dishonorable. Is there any way to play Horde in this expansion without being a hypocrite? How do I regain my honor?

There is no honorable choice, only honor that can come FROM the choice.

Basically it boils down to this: if you side with Sylvanas now you are doing the honorable thing in not betraying your Warchief but, you're siding with a genocidal despot who will do literally anything to kill and convert people.

If you side with Saurfang or Baine, you're doing the dishonorable thing now in not listening to your Warchief's orders, but you are doing the honorable thing in not slaughtering innocents, bending people to your will by force, and basically seeking the destruction of all things that aren't "you" (basically what Sylvanas dictates you to be that is).

So what's the honorable choice in all that? Your call. For me, it's the side that isn't seeking the destruction of other races even if it comes at the cost of bleeding the entire world into destruction to do so.