There is NO ilvl difference between 8/8M raiders and 0/8 M players

[Mardux]

His point is there's no sense of reward anymore in the game other than "hey guys we wiped 50-100+ times on this boss and we killed it yay." Yeah there's loot at the end but its the same loot you could've gotten on a lower difficulty but with a different skin. Sorry this is "complete nonsense" to you.

At the end of the day blizzard has been headed in this direction for a while now and it was expected. That's why the game went from 12 million to ~2 million subscribers give or take a million (according to Weakauras). This number is probably even less now since it was reported.

Wow. There are still people stuck on that completely unproven sub info that then mysteriously was deleted by the people who "leaked" it then was "retweeted" by someone using download numbers as if they were a provable data source?

Because its not like there are players who don't use weakauras or players who have downloaded the addon multiple times, right?

- - - Updated - - -

This is also why we need systems like raider io to tell which players are actually good.

That feeling when you see someone who legitimately thinks [high r.io = skill] and [low r.io = no skill] when it comes to raiding.

[Cyranis]

No I don't see a problem with being rewarded for 50-100+ wipes on the hardest difficulty in the game. Mythic in my opinion should have never even came out. They just added another difficulty to the game claiming it was more challenging but really all they did was change old Normal to LFR, old Heroic to Normal and old Heroic to Mythic. They should've kept with the 2 difficulty system normal and heroic. Normal for those who don't want to dedicate full raid nights to a game and heroic for those who want more of a challenge. What's the point in adding more difficulties if they're not even more difficult? To throw more loot and content at people who don't want to put in the same amount of time as someone else? Bullshit.

The experience/entertainment value is your reward. If you don't find that your time is being well spent, then stop doing mythic raiding. The game is far bigger than you and yours. The vast majority of people never raid. The game caters to those people. I'm sorry you feel disenfranchised, but the truth is, the game isn't going to wrap itself around your whims. You are an insignificant demographic.

And the subscriber count is incredibly true but I give blizzard the benefit of the doubt by saying +/- a million. Listen, the reason blizzard stopped recording the subscription count at 5.5 million in 2015 is because it has become non-beneficial to the company. Would you invest in a company who's longest lasting and most popular game continuously decreased in subscriptions by several millions? I think not. It makes sense from a business perspective not to report on decreases in numbers.

https://twitter.com/WeakAuras/status...76911998296066

Huh, the tweet you are referencing says this

Because people do not like to read more than one tweet in a thread: there is 0 proof to this and no way to proof it since the source has vanished. Blizzard contacted me and said it's false as well.

Seems even weakaura's realize there is nothing to it.

[Traxex9080]

Wow. There are still people stuck on that completely unproven sub info that then mysteriously was deleted by the people who "leaked" it then was "retweeted" by someone using download numbers as if they were a provable data source?

Because its not like there are players who don't use weakauras or players who have downloaded the addon multiple times, right?

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That feeling when you see someone who legitimately thinks [high r.io = skill] and [low r.io = no skill] when it comes to raiding.

So what's your opinion? You think WoW is at 5 million or more? you don't think it's decreasing? There's a reason i said ~2 million +/- a million. Giving blizzard the benefit of the doubt they're at about 3 million. You don't see a decrease from 12 million to 5 million 4 million or 3 million significant? You don't think there's a reason for this? You think it's ONLY solely the fact that people are growing out of WoW? Shouldn't the game be bringing in more players than those who are leaving? I know it's a 14 year old game but it's constantly being updated so why are more people leaving than those who are subscribing? Or do you not think this is true either?

I know I laid a lot of assumptions on you but I'm genuinely curious.

I guess we'll see soon enough when the content slows down and the expansions stop coming.

[Deleted]

The experience/entertainment value is your reward. If you don't find that your time is being well spent, then stop doing mythic raiding. The game is far bigger than you and yours. The vast majority of people never raid. The game caters to those people. I'm sorry you feel disenfranchised, but the truth is, the game isn't going to wrap itself around your whims. You are an insignificant demographic.




https://twitter.com/WeakAuras/status...76911998296066

Huh, the tweet you are referencing says this

Seems even weakaura's realize there is nothing to it.

People what play currently are not majority. Majority alredy quit game beocuse of changes what Blizzard did over the years. So saying that Blizzard have to cutter to non raiders becouse they are majority are ****.

Another thing. Cuttering content to majority do not keep majority of players playing. Yes it is irony but casual content never keept casuals playing and never will. It was long term goals and progressions what kept players playing. LFR targeted casuals (majority). Did it kept players playing and it is fun? No. It actualy made players quit game faster and many organized guilds dibanded. SO your casual content what you say have to be in game becouse of majority actualy made people quit game. So tell me again how is cuttering to casual audience helping game.

[Bhorin]

People what play currently are not majority. Majority alredy quit game beocuse of changes what Blizzard did over the years. So saying that Blizzard have to cutter to non raiders becouse they are majority are ****.

Another thing. Cuttering content to majority do not keep majority of players playing. Yes it is irony but casual content never keept casuals playing and never will. It was long term goals and progressions what kept players playing. LFR targeted casuals (majority). Did it kept players playing and it is fun? No. It actualy made players quit game faster and many organized guilds dibanded. SO your casual content what you say have to be in game becouse of majority actualy made people quit game. So tell me again how is cuttering to casual audience helping game.

More people quit during Vanilla than quit at any other point in the game (hint: if 1 unsubs when 2 accounts are created it's still a net +1 sub). Let's not pretend people are quitting because of recent decisions. Trying to quote sub numbers is completely disingenuous, pointless and ultimately does not provide any data that you can actually make any conclusions from.

[Deleted]

More people quit during Vanilla than quit at any other point in the game (hint: if 1 unsubs when 2 accounts are created it's still a net +1 sub). Let's not pretend people are quitting because of recent decisions. Trying to quote sub numbers is completely disingenuous, pointless and ultimately does not provide any data that you can actually make any conclusions from.

Yes people did quit becouse of changes and no vannila actualy had far higher retantion rate than any current modern expansion.

[meekus]

With arenas and m+ around, raiding is not necessarily the one end game thing to focus on nowadays. So I'm fine with it.

[siskokid21]

I am sorry how are mythic raiders get mythic gear faster when i put about 1/100 play time of mythic raider and be almost at same itemlvl gear? No it is not ok being so much time and effort devalued at this stage of expansion.

They get geared faster because they've been clearing the content for months. My MW monk that is 8/8M has been 380+ for months now, whereas the general population is just getting here now because of RNG with titanforging/warforing. Mythic drops 385 baseline, and has no luck factor involved. Every method a casual has involves luck and RNG, through warforges/titanforges and weekly chests. My MW has not seen a single upgrade from my weekly chest in well over 2 months, mostly because getting gear upgrades has been super rare.

There is 61 pages of people discussing what is wrong with it and you come and say "there is nothing wrong". How about every new patch makes everything prior completely irrelevant? Why am I getting 390 gear for afk auto attacking a world boss?

That's actually exactly how the game has been, and always will be. New raid tier comes out, that drops higher ilvl loot.. so effectively everyone is on an equal playing field again. You don't want new raid tiers to drop higher ilvl loot? You don't want people to have fair chances at entering a new raid tier, especially those who quit and took a few months break? There have been catch up mechanics in the game since TBC.

Edit: Technically Vanilla even had some catchup mechanics with BG rewards and dungeon sets added later on, i didn't play vanilla so i can't speak a whole lot on the subject

[Gaidax]

His point is there's no sense of reward anymore in the game other than "hey guys we wiped 50-100+ times on this boss and we killed it yay." Yeah there's loot at the end but its the same loot you could've gotten on a lower difficulty but with a different skin. Sorry this is "complete nonsense" to you.

I clear mythic difficulty with 6 hours per week investment for many years, collected plenty of unique titles and mounts.

Gear? That comes and goes - it's mostly means to an end although even there you get plenty of cool looking unique pieces that you can't get so easily even with new expansion.

ilvl? Don't give a damn, although it is nice to be able to rock what I rock with 6 hours a week doing best content as guild effort as opposed to running same lame shit dungs and invasions endlessly until your eyes bleed praying for RNG to get something close to same.

[Bhorin]

Calling bullshit on "6 hours per week."

You're currently the #1 warlock on your server in Azerite power and your azerite level (strongly correlated to /played) is relatively higher than your item level.

You've done hundreds of m+.

So yes, you only raid 6 hours per week, but don't call it a 6 hour investment, that's just totally misleading. You're playing WAAAY more than that.

And yet all but his Chest (Ivus), 1 ring (M+ titanforge + socket) and 1 trinket (M+ bis) are from the Mythic raid. Seems pretty fair to say his 6 hours per week pretty accurately describes his time spent gearing as that his where 80% of his gear is from. The Ivus robes happen to be marginally better than the Uldir ones he probably has in the bank and likely isn't interested in wasting Residuum on a 385.

Looks like he spent quite a bit of time farming TD for Trinket (BIS)... outside of that it looks like most of his dungeons are completed 4+ months ago (likely during/before gearing up to do Mythic Uldir) and mostly only +10 weekly thereafter. Which basically puts him at 6.5 hours per week + AP farm (which is irrelevant to this conversation) after getting into Mythic Uldir.

It's fairly safe to assume moving forward he will do about the same.. M Raid + weekly M+10 and maybe farming up a 400 version of his TD trinket (if there isn't better options in the new raid) and maybe a ring from M+ if no good stat combo for him in the raid. He's basically doing the supposed dream scenario of catch up gear haters of going from raid to raid incrementally increasing his gear.. meanwhile he isn't complaining about people perpetually in catch up gear. Good on him.

[lappee]

Ok, so that's some pretty thick satire, but hopefully you get the point. Giving people a chance at some decent gear hurts no one. It doesn't invalidate whatever accomplishment you think you've achieved. It just provides a woohoo moment for some people that might never otherwise get one.

Making people work for their gear doesn't hurt anyone either, it only makes the gear matter more. Just like a mount that everyone gets at lvl 1 vs a mount that only a handful get, even if they look a like one is still going to matter more than the other. Just like why certain brands price their product at "ridiculous" levels even if they could make it way more affordable but that would hurt the prestige of said product.

So yeah, I still don't see any benefit to giving free gear to people.

[Argorwal]

True, in the long run it was a mistake in my opinion, or maybe they could have made it diffrent.

Discussions on how transmog is bad for the game nicely sums up why mmo-champion posters are so disconnected from the WoW playerbase its silly.

[lappee]

The fact that you had to reach for this only strengthens the idea that the current system of difficult = higher ilevel is a problem. A better solution is steady progression to some ceiling at varying rates based upon game activity. Base gear would be largely generic and enhancements to that gear would be assigned from a pool of attributes that steadily increases, slower or faster, based on what game activity you choose to participate in. Everyone can get to BiS, just mythic raiders would be there long ahead of everyone else.

Theres no problem with more difficult = better gear.

You can have steady progress with your gear if you also have steady progress with the difficulty of gameplay you do, which is frankly how it should be. All this Vegas slot machine bullshit is going to create is addicts that don't want or care to get better.
M+ weekly cache is a fine example of how you get steady progress that is depends on your skill, you do a +5 and get a nice reward at the start of next week.
What is bad though is things like Emissaries, where you get increasingly good rewards for the same content that gets easier and easier, and Warfronts where you get loot literally by afking. World bosses are another source of free loot thats actually a really bad system.

You're simply not entitled to have bis gear by buying the game, you're entitled to try get the gear by beating hard content. I have no idea how such a basic concept seems to be so alien to people.

[Argorwal]

Blizzard published infographic during 10th anniversary. During the 10 first years of WoW around 90M people had tried it and quit during the first 10 years. A bit less than 10M were still playing at that point. I doubt the main reason for quitting is Blizzard's design choices.

This is a huge thing most people miss.

Reported subs is just a snapshot of the current net subs = active + join - leave.

The leave number can be really big, and as long as the join number is bigger subs are "going up".

Its also tasty when Blizzard decides to count everyone in China paying $1 for 3 hours of game time as a "sub".

[lappee]

I think it's mostly because people don't want to work when they play a game.

Then people are hang up with the work "work" meaning unenjoyable necessity for living for them. We can change the word to effort and skill but the idea is the same. If you do your activity well (aka successfully in most cases) then you get rewarded for it, some tasks are harder than others and thus have better rewards.

[Chaosweaver]

This is not a job. It's a video game.
The purpose is entertainment, not income generation.
Your analogy has no merit.

How do you even derive a comparison between levels of derived enjoyment. Complete nonsense

So your entertainment comes from ilevel and you demand mythic raid level gear otherwise the game is not entertaining for you?

I understand why you had to specify lower level in the quote, otherwise the analogy falls apart. Someone working 12 hours a day in a factory certainly has a harder job than anyone in middle management yet probably makes less than half what the manager does. Furthermore, you're not my boss in the game (nor do I even know who you are) so whatever you have going is fine with me. For all I know you got your splashy gear through bought carries but the beauty of that is I don't really care. Whatever I have going is none of your business for the same reason. World of Warcraft, apart from certain guilds of my acquaintance, is neither work or any sort of entity that needs to have higher and lower level 'jobs' for which people are rewarded appropriately.

The fact that you had to reach for this only strengthens the idea that the current system of difficult = higher ilevel is a problem. A better solution is steady progression to some ceiling at varying rates based upon game activity. Base gear would be largely generic and enhancements to that gear would be assigned from a pool of attributes that steadily increases, slower or faster, based on what game activity you choose to participate in. Everyone can get to BiS, just mythic raiders would be there long ahead of everyone else.

My analogy was absolutely relevant, people doing warfronts and people doing mythic raiding do different things with infinitely different difficulties and time invested so yes, not doing mythic raiding and high level pvp is lower level and easier content.

As for that "everyone should get BiS gear" entitled nonesense in your last sentence I can't even understand how the hell you came to that conclusion. In what world people who afk'd in a warfront deserve a mythic raid level gear? Mythic raid level gear should only be given to the people who put the time and effort to get it, that's how WoW worked when it was at it's peak and the more it moved away from that foundation the more it became worse and worse.

9.0 will most likely be a huge swing to other side of the spectrum.

We can only hope it happens since it's literally the only thing that can save WoW at this point.

[Gaidax]

And yet all but his Chest (Ivus), 1 ring (M+ titanforge + socket) and 1 trinket (M+ bis) are from the Mythic raid. Seems pretty fair to say his 6 hours per week pretty accurately describes his time spent gearing as that his where 80% of his gear is from. The Ivus robes happen to be marginally better than the Uldir ones he probably has in the bank and likely isn't interested in wasting Residuum on a 385.

Looks like he spent quite a bit of time farming TD for Trinket (BIS)... outside of that it looks like most of his dungeons are completed 4+ months ago (likely during/before gearing up to do Mythic Uldir) and mostly only +10 weekly thereafter. Which basically puts him at 6.5 hours per week + AP farm (which is irrelevant to this conversation) after getting into Mythic Uldir.

It's fairly safe to assume moving forward he will do about the same.. M Raid + weekly M+10 and maybe farming up a 400 version of his TD trinket (if there isn't better options in the new raid) and maybe a ring from M+ if no good stat combo for him in the raid. He's basically doing the supposed dream scenario of catch up gear haters of going from raid to raid incrementally increasing his gear.. meanwhile he isn't complaining about people perpetually in catch up gear. Good on him.

Ditto.

Heck it's not even 6 hours per week last month plus because we clear M.Uldir in one day - 3 hours.

Mythic raiding is easily best time spent to gear ratio in game. There is this pervasive myth it's some sort of time consuming nolifer thing, but reality you can clear it so fast when progress is done that it's all but that.

[Roxxy]

So apparently doing the same content over and over and we are meant to be doing it for fun and not gear? Dude once I've seen the encounter on normal difficulty, it's basically the same thing but harder with each progressive difficulty level with a few more mechanics. When I'm killing heroic Mythrax for the 7th time, I'm meant to be doing it for fun am I? Not gear? The content gets stale fast, that's why gear was there as incentive to do it, character progression, the bread and butter of mmo's.
Same thing for running m+, after I've seen the dungeon once or twice, I'm still meant to grind it for fun? Are you being serious?

[Explicit Teemo Nudes]

Its almost like theres other progression ways nowadays and its no longer raid or die.

There have always been more than 1 way to progess... you just progressed for the things you were about to do, not mythic raiding when you'll never put a step in such a raid(except 2 expansions down the line).

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So apparently doing the same content over and over and we are meant to be doing it for fun and not gear? Dude once I've seen the encounter on normal difficulty, it's basically the same thing but harder with each progressive difficulty level with a few more mechanics. When I'm killing heroic Mythrax for the 7th time, I'm meant to be doing it for fun am I? Not gear? The content gets stale fast, that's why gear was there as incentive to do it, character progression, the bread and butter of mmo's.
Same thing for running m+, after I've seen the dungeon once or twice, I'm still meant to grind it for fun? Are you being serious?

Well yeah, it's a MMO. You progress content, see the story unfold and play with friends or guildies. An MMO isn't for you if you don't doing the same thing twice.

[Deleted]

WoW is suffering from SJW's, everyone has to be equal. Join a battleground and everyone gets scaled to the same item level, in raids everyone gets the same loot. That's why WoW is all about aesthetics these days, gear doesn't matter anymore.

It's sad we have so many bad people with the power to push their SJW agenda.