Just So We're Perfectly Clear, There Will Be No Wall. Ever. This Is Why.

[Skroe]

I can respect what your saying. Nothing of what I said, changes the fact, that what you said is wrong.

The wall isn't a manufactured crisis, it's not the biggest of humanities woes, but it is still on we can solve

Say we build the wall, what then?

The wall isn't going to cost us anything

The wall will cost $30 billion - $60 billion up front with probably double that to sustain it over two decades. Like many megaprojects (see: the Big Dig) it's going to be the kind of project that once the last third is complete, the first third will need to be redone and repaired, and then the second third, and then the last third again.

You're not buying the wall. You're buying a massive infrastructure upkeep program. One that will fall in decay real quick, especially when, as would happen, Democratic Presidents and Congresses come to power over the decades and significantly under-resource it. It would rapidly become a national eyesore, and by 2035ish, the discussion would shift to how to cost-effectively tear it down and replace it with something more cost-effective to maintain given the further reduced flows of illegal crossings.

Further, as shared previously, building juts 1000 miles of it would take 10,000 workers about 10 years.

Can the country afford it? Easily. Will the country pay for it? Not in your life. There is nothing you will do to ever convince Democrats in congress to ever fund this thing. They've already (rightfully) taken a moral stand, assaulting the wall as an affront to American principles. And it is (more on that momentarily). They won't back down from that.

I honestly hope declares a National Emergency and orders the national guard to build about 10 miles of wall on some fucking military base, just to show to the rubes who support him that he is "building the wall". It'll be a nice prop for the next Democratic President to generate a historic moment when he attacks it with a sledgehammer.

And that's the take away. Americans don't want this thing. Period. They don't want to shut down the government over it, and they certainly don't want to spend money on it. An undertaking this size would require a buyin from both parties, and a broad section of Americans, to sustain the political momentum to build it. It simply isn't there. The reverse is true.

And the reason is quite clear. Americans are proudly internationalist. Americans are pro-immigration and want an open, inclusive society. Americans, at their core, are bridge builders. This wall is a blasphemy against America's moral character.

Trump is losing the wall fight. Badly. He will not get his wall, period. But even if he weren't, he wouldn't actually be "winning" the wall. He's be winning the fight to "keep fighting to build" the wall, and time is most certainly not on his side in that regard.

The wall is dead. It is never coming back. Period.

[Breccia]

So Graham is showing signs that he's about to break from Trump on this one.

Trump apparently told him (by his own public admission) that he wanted a deal first, and he's reopen the government second. Graham (again by his own public admission) plead for the reverse. Before going the "national security lol" route, Graham wants the government reopened for a few weeks, and a deal can be made in that time. If that fails, then the "national security lol" route could follow.

Now, to be fair, Graham's plan won't work. If Trump reopens the government without Wall funding, that'll be seen as caving. Also, it would require some kind of three-week or so CR, which McConnell has vowed to block. But most importantly, Trump would be proud to shut down the government again after those few weeks, and also, declare a "national security lol" moment, and other than the federal employees getting a paycheck or two for two months' work, we'd be back in the same place -- except for Trump shutting down the government twice.

Maybe Graham knows that. Or, maybe he suspects Trump won't shut the government down again (we've discussed that route, the one where Trump fights "national security lol" in the courts while the government remains open). But it seems unlikely that Trump would take this option if presented to him, which we'll only see happen if McConnell allows the Senate to vote for such.

Graham's not only made his case to the GOP moderates, but also now directly to Trump by way of the TV (EDIT: FOX News). Nothing's worked. At some point, his patience will end. And while Graham is being vocal about it, I doubt he's alone.

P.S. Also in the linked article, when Trump said "the Democrats have left DC" Pelosi immediately responded with "I stayed in my office too, bitch." Then she walked away from an explosion.

[Skroe]

So Graham is showing signs that he's about to break from Trump on this one.

Trump apparently told him (by his own public admission) that he wanted a deal first, and he's reopen the government second. Graham (again by his own public admission) plead for the reverse. Before going the "national security lol" route, Graham wants the government reopened for a few weeks, and a deal can be made in that time. If that fails, then the "national security lol" route could follow.

Now, to be fair, Graham's plan won't work. If Trump reopens the government without Wall funding, that'll be seen as caving. Also, it would require some kind of three-week or so CR, which McConnell has vowed to block. But most importantly, Trump would be proud to shut down the government again after those few weeks, and also, declare a "national security lol" moment, and other than the federal employees getting a paycheck or two for two months' work, we'd be back in the same place -- except for Trump shutting down the government twice.

Maybe Graham knows that. Or, maybe he suspects Trump won't shut the government down again (we've discussed that route, the one where Trump fights "national security lol" in the courts while the government remains open). But it seems unlikely that Trump would take this option if presented to him, which we'll only see happen if McConnell allows the Senate to vote for such.

Graham's not only made his case to the GOP moderates, but also now directly to Trump by way of the TV (EDIT: FOX News). Nothing's worked. At some point, his patience will end. And while Graham is being vocal about it, I doubt he's alone.

P.S. Also in the linked article, when Trump said "the Democrats have left DC" Pelosi immediately responded with "I stayed in my office too, bitch." Then she walked away from an explosion.

Let that motherfucker rot.

Seriously. I gave Graham the benefit of a doubt long after others stopped. Terrible mistake. I have much more respect for someone like Mike Lee, who although he is a gigantic obsidian monument of heartless conservatism, is exactly what he presents himself to be. You know what you're getting with Mike Lee. A brilliant, principled, pain in the ass who never compromises. But he doesn't pretend he's something he's not.

Graham though? I'm sick to death of his dumb little game. Which Graham are we dealing with today? The Bipartisan Graham? The Graham that was John McCain's Amigo? The Graham that is content to being some Trump stooge just so he avoids a primary challenge in 2020? Even within the same week we get different Grahams.

I'll tell you what I think. I think Graham doesn't even fucking know himself. I think he, like most of the Senate, is secretly disgusted with everything Trump is. Maybe even more. But he's such a gutless coward about a potential primary challenge, he self edits himself to be this Trumphadi, until he slips, and you see it's an act and he really wishes things weren't like this.

Fuck him for that. He doesn't get sympathy. He gets scorn. Trump is a 500 year storm upon the republic. He's an all hands on deck moment. But Graham doesn't have the personal fortitude to do the right thing.

If Graham wants to make himself useful for the first time in god knows how long, he'll go back and watch the Grand Convocation of the Resistance, aka his friend John McCain's Funeral, and listened to what everybody said.

Graham can go fuck himself. He helped lay the groundwork for this shutdown by allowing Trump's once outlandish suggestion for a wall, that Republicans roundly dismissed, to become party policy. He helped it happen. He's one of the villains of the story.

Fuck him.

[LaserSharkDFB]

Wrong. So wrong. Their is, an entire market of human beings, especially young women. Who come across our borders and we don't have the man power or a barrier to prevent it from happening. It is a market of human flesh, sold to the highest, in the most democratic of states mind you. Maybe it's young men these days, young men with no skills, black skin, no where to call home.

Where can we begin to agree on illegal immigration if we cannot stop people from coming in?

Um, misquote?

[Edge-]

The wall isn't going to cost us anything

Please elaborate on this, how isn't it "going to cost us anything"?

[Zaktar]

Wrong. So wrong. Their is, an entire market of human beings, especially young women. Who come across our borders and we don't have the man power or a barrier to prevent it from happening. It is a market of human flesh, sold to the highest, in the most democratic of states mind you. Maybe it's young men these days, young men with no skills, black skin, no where to call home.

Where can we begin to agree on illegal immigration if we cannot stop people from coming in?

- - - Updated - - -

I can respect what your saying. Nothing of what I said, changes the fact, that what you said is wrong.

The wall isn't a manufactured crisis, it's not the biggest of humanities woes, but it is still on we can solve

Say we build the wall, what then?

The wall isn't going to cost us anything

A wall can't solve the problems you're discussing. Shipping containers would be a much better place to look, if you want to talk human trafficking.

[Blur4stuff]

A wall would do very little against the problems of illegal immigration and drug & human trafficking. I guess we'll have to keep pointing this out to Trump supporters for as long as it takes.

Most undocumented immigrants and illegal drugs are not brought across the southern border. For those that are, they would just go over, under or around a wall. It would be a complete waste of resources.

[Surlybottle]

A wall doesn't stop legal immigration.

A wall stopping illegal immigration is against our morals. Doesn't it then follow that any laws stopping illegal immigration are also against our morals? Shouldn't we then fight to remove such things as penalties for overstaying a visa? Why have border control officers at all? Surely the checking for fruits and vegetables isn't enough to warrant a job.

I think we need to stand up against not only the building of new barriers but also removing the existing ones. We need to fight even harder to reverse our immoral laws and should recall our border personnel immediately.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Stop thinking a minority voted for Trump. STOP IT. I'm a lifelong democrat, my friends are, we are all in southern Wisconsin and one of the big reasons everyone voted for Trump was because of immigration. IT IS the responsibility of congress because they HAVE to provide funding for it. US, Democrats are one of the few resisting. STOP.

Geography wasn't my subject in school, but last I checked, Wisconsin isn't exactly a border state, and most counties along the border of the country went to Democrats. Yes, a minority voted for Trump in 2016. He got 3 million less votes than Hillary, and in Wisconsin, Trump just barely eeked out half the vote. Meanwhile southern Wisconsin voted Democrat in many districts. "Everyone"? Pffff, stow your dilusions, you partisan hack.

Stop being a partisan fanatic. It's absolutely irrelevant if Trump builds his wall or not and if anything it is a boon for us. It's one less thing misguided people and THAT whole corner get to talk about. Let these people think they've got the cream of the crop and fade into obscurity. It's one less thing Trump has to run on in 2020. By far, this has to be the FUCKING STUPIDEST thing not to give him.

A wall that will, in the long run, cost us hundreds of billions to build and maintain is not a boon. It's an expensive monument to white supremacy that would do absolutely nothing. Take your own advice and stop being a partisan fanatic who thinks he's some kind of woke Democrat. The worst part is that some of the most fanatical Trumpkins are some of the people furthest from the border. People in fly-over states that barely have a Mexican population at all. People who deny crime statistic pie charts from Trump's own department of justice. What a fucking joke.

NO, WE voted for border security, in 2014.

Republicans got a minority vote in 2016. And in 2018. And in 2014. And several elections before that. Wake up son. Their control of the senate is due to the 2 seat rule, and their control of congress is due to heavy gerrymandering that not even the Republicans themselves deny.[/QUOTE]

[muto]

Yeah walls and barriers don’t work. Hungary is proof they work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung...border_barrier

And did even more because of this clown

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/62204...ted-immigrants

[Cthulhu 2020]

The wall isn't going to cost us anything

Jesus dude, what are you smoking to make yourself this delusional?

[Skroe]

A wall doesn't stop legal immigration.

A wall stopping illegal immigration is against our morals. Doesn't it then follow that any laws stopping illegal immigration are also against our morals? Shouldn't we then fight to remove such things as penalties for overstaying a visa? Why have border control officers at all? Surely the checking for fruits and vegetables isn't enough to warrant a job.

I think we need to stand up against not only the building of new barriers but also removing the existing ones. We need to fight even harder to reverse our immoral laws and should recall our border personnel immediately.

Something doesn't smell kosher with this post. But I'll bite.

The US should certainly have immigration controls, to manage the flow. But the United States is facing a worker shortage as is. If we had an ounce of sense, we would raise the cap on legal immigration man times over, and streamline the process so there is no real line. Growing both the worker base at the same time as growing the consumer base would only serve to increase growth. The United States is not a country of scarcity, but plenty. Our enormous wealth can and should be shared. Anyone who wants to be an American worker, an American taxpayer and an American consumer, should have the opportunity to do so. The ultimate winner in that is all Americans.


We've literally been through this before. A hundred years ago, White Americans created logical rationalizes as to why we shouldn't let Germans, Italians and Eastern Europeans in. Many didn't even consider these White Europeans, you know, "white". And here we are yet again, and the same thing is happening with Latin American immigration.

We let them in, an dour country grew enormously in population, taxpayers, wealth and human capital.

You know what I see when I look at Latin America? A goldmine of human capitalthat we should embrace as our own. Bring anyone who wants to join the American family into it, and we all become enriched.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah walls and barriers don’t work. Hungary is proof they work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung...border_barrier

And did even more because of this clown

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/62204...ted-immigrants

(1) It's 325 miles long. 13% the length of the US-Mexican border.

(2) Almost of it is fence, not wall.

(3) Hungary is a creeping authoritarian regime that the United States of America in no way should be emulating.

(4) Americans are bridge builders, not wall builders. The wall is against our principles.


Let me be clear muto, because maybe it hasn't come through you. You can rationalize and justify it all you fucking like. I don't care. Nobody cares. This is an issue of values now, not functionality. The wall is contrary to America's historic principles. It is a blasphemy against them.

You're not getting a fucking wall. Trump is not getting a fucking wall. America is not getting a fucking wall.

It is over. You lost. All we're waiting for is Trump to figure it out and betray you by signing a budget with $0 for the wall. But everyone knows how this ends.

Why don't you?

[Cthulhu 2020]

Yeah walls and barriers don’t work. Hungary is proof they work.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung...border_barrier

And did even more because of this clown

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/20/62204...ted-immigrants

The Hungarian fence was constructed over a distance that is extremely short compared to the US-Mexico Border, and it largely curbed foot immigration precisely because it's such a short distance. It can be manned far more easily because it is such a short distance, and a lot of the refugees come over on foot.

What people seem to forget is that what people state as the US's problem, illegal immigrants, is that most of them are not even coming over the southern border on foot. We do not have hoards of border hoppers. We have far more wide and varied issues with illegal immigrants that a border barrier does not really help.

If the US had a 200 mile long border with Mexico and immigrants were pouring over by the tens of thousands each month (like in Hungary), there might actually be a reason to build a border wall. Instead, the US and Mexico share a 2,000 mile long border, a distance that can not realistically be built nor manned without significant cost to the country. And that cost would only be justified if we were seeing illegal immigrants pouring over in droves... which we aren't. A lot are coming in on planes, boats, trucks, etc. and many come fully legally on visas and simply overstay them.

So no, a border wall would not fix the fevered delusions that Republicans call "The immigration problem".

[Surlybottle]

The US should certainly have immigration controls, to manage the flow. But the United States is facing a worker shortage as is. If we had an ounce of sense, we would raise the cap on legal immigration man times over, and streamline the process so there is no real line.

Indeed it should. However, currently we do not, nor do I think we will have the wherewithal to elect leadership that will actually make that reality anytime soon. Until that wonderful day comes we are stuck with our current laws. Which if a wall is immoral, so are they by the very nature of what they do. So by all means it's pretty clear a wall is not any kind of answer. My point is, it's better to focus on the shortcomings and wastefulness of a wall than on using more emotional arguments like calling it immoral, which the talking heads keep doing. If we go down the immorality route, we have to put the wall second to our current situation.

[Orbitus]

Indeed it should. However, currently we do not, nor do I think we will have the wherewithal to elect leadership that will actually make that reality anytime soon. Until that wonderful day comes we are stuck with our current laws. Which if a wall is immoral, so are they by the very nature of what they do. So by all means it's pretty clear a wall is not any kind of answer. My point is, it's better to focus on the shortcomings and wastefulness of a wall than on using more emotional arguments like calling it immoral, which the talking heads keep doing. If we go down the immorality route, we have to put the wall second to our current situation.

You think we don't have immigration controls? What is the current fence in populated areas? ICE? CPB? Are those not immigration controls on a problem that isn't that big of deal along the southern border anymore? Hell more people leave over the southern border than come here.

I don't know if there is one newer than this one: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/

[PosPosPos]

My point is, it's better to focus on the shortcomings and wastefulness of a wall than on using more emotional arguments like calling it immoral, which the talking heads keep doing.

Yeah, it's almost like extensively pointing out all the ways a wall is useless and wasteful for a border that large is merely a moral and emotional argument.

[Pannonian]

Something doesn't smell kosher with this post. But I'll bite.

The US should certainly have immigration controls, to manage the flow. But the United States is facing a worker shortage as is. If we had an ounce of sense, we would raise the cap on legal immigration man times over, and streamline the process so there is no real line. Growing both the worker base at the same time as growing the consumer base would only serve to increase growth. The United States is not a country of scarcity, but plenty. Our enormous wealth can and should be shared. Anyone who wants to be an American worker, an American taxpayer and an American consumer, should have the opportunity to do so. The ultimate winner in that is all Americans.


We've literally been through this before. A hundred years ago, White Americans created logical rationalizes as to why we shouldn't let Germans, Italians and Eastern Europeans in. Many didn't even consider these White Europeans, you know, "white". And here we are yet again, and the same thing is happening with Latin American immigration.

We let them in, an dour country grew enormously in population, taxpayers, wealth and human capital.

You know what I see when I look at Latin America? A goldmine of human capitalthat we should embrace as our own. Bring anyone who wants to join the American family into it, and we all become enriched.

- - - Updated - - -



(1) It's 325 miles long. 13% the length of the US-Mexican border.

(2) Almost of it is fence, not wall.

(3) Hungary is a creeping authoritarian regime that the United States of America in no way should be emulating.

(4) Americans are bridge builders, not wall builders. The wall is against our principles.


Let me be clear muto, because maybe it hasn't come through you. You can rationalize and justify it all you fucking like. I don't care. Nobody cares. This is an issue of values now, not functionality. The wall is contrary to America's historic principles. It is a blasphemy against them.

You're not getting a fucking wall. Trump is not getting a fucking wall. America is not getting a fucking wall.

It is over. You lost. All we're waiting for is Trump to figure it out and betray you by signing a budget with $0 for the wall. But everyone knows how this ends.

Why don't you?

To add to that:

Hungarians autocratic president has a personal vendetta against George Soros (who is from hungary as well). So all this rash rhetoric about immigrants is just his hate of Soros: So you have a xenophobic autocrat with a lot of antisemitism mixed in. I mean, that close to the current president of the US, but not something i would want to emulate.

We could also add that most refugees just travelled through hungary, and this whole fence is useless since Turkey made the deal with Germany, but hey... if it fits the narrative...

30 years ago we were celebrating cutting down the fences around Hungary, today we celebrate erecting new ones - what a time to be alive

[Skroe]

Indeed it should. However, currently we do not, nor do I think we will have the wherewithal to elect leadership that will actually make that reality anytime soon. Until that wonderful day comes we are stuck with our current laws. Which if a wall is immoral, so are they by the very nature of what they do. So by all means it's pretty clear a wall is not any kind of answer. My point is, it's better to focus on the shortcomings and wastefulness of a wall than on using more emotional arguments like calling it immoral, which the talking heads keep doing. If we go down the immorality route, we have to put the wall second to our current situation.

No. The Moral Argument is the stronger argument.

Trump and his era is already a litmus test as to how deeply held America's timeless, most sacred principles truly are. The early results are in: there is a subset of Americans - a minority but not exactly a tiny one - that would be just fine with authoritarianism so long as "their guy" is in charge and "their policies" are enacted and "their enemies" suffered. Their American principles are mostly slogans.

The wall is a stage of that moral test. It is the one that deals with the very essence of America's character. We are all immigrants or the children of immigrants, and our society is supposed to be inclusive and open.

Or let me put it this way. An America that builds the wall will have fallen completely to ethnonationalism. That is the historic great cancer of Europe. We are supposed to be better than the old world, as a matter of principle, in most things we do. But especially that. The old hatreds, and the genesis of them, is supposed to have no place here, across the ocean, in the New World.

An America where that is not the case will be no better, and will simply be just "the home of the Americans". We will have failed in our mission in the world, unique in human history, to be a monument to liberty and opportunity. There would be no point to America, in other words, anymore than any other country.

That is why the moral case matters. It is about who we are, in the most fundamental sense.

[PosPosPos]

Sorry, no Trump supporter here,

Between my conservative friends either completely refusing to acknowledge Trump may not be a good president to trying to explain everything away as "4D chess" and my more liberal friends proclaiming Trump to be the anti Christ and bringer of the 2nd generation of Nazi's, I am exhausted. I feel stuck in a sense only to observe what seems to be some sort of mass psychological phenomenon happening to people. The toxicity and anger in people is legit disturbing.

Doesn't look like you are a Trump supporter, you are just the Connal type.

Specifically, the type who thinks he's holier-than-thou because he can't decide between right or wrong, and that the middle of two points must always be the right solution.

[Skroe]

Americans conquered the frontier of a untamed continent whose vast reaches were unknown in 1776.
They built some of the most vibrant cities on Earth from untamed wilderness.
They built the first large scale representative democracy in nearly 2000 years, and market economy.
They built new religions and new ways of living.
They built the transcontinental railroad.
They built the Federal Reserve and principles of modern economics.
They built the American power grid.
They built the Arsenal of Democracy that won the Second World War
They built the Manhattan project and harnessed the fundamental forces of the universe.
They built the entire post-War American liberal world order.
They built the interstate highway system.
They built commercial air and affordable intercontinental jet travel (the Boeing 707, etc).
They built the Space Program
They built a freer, more just society through the Civil Rights era.
They built the internet.
They built the Space Shuttle and International Space Station.
They built the the post-Cold War global order.
They built the most powerful, richest and advanced country in the history of the world.
They built the modern globalized economy.
They built the leading parts of the information age, from Intel and Microsoft, to google and Facebook.


Americans build the future. Often times immigrant Americans (or the children of) or Americans+foreigners, or foreigners who have come to America. We are an open society where anything is possible.

We do not build fucking walls to hide behind. The wall is a blasphemy to what makes us what we are. It is antithetical to our mission in the world.

@muto, if you want to go live in Viktor Orban's little authoritarian kingdom, go ahead. You leave. We'll take the immigrants who share our ambitions for the world that could be.