Remember what the Orcs gained from the Siege?

[Soppatykki]

I mean... Emperor Illidan Stormrage sound pretty good to me.

Isn't that eternal virgin now trapped with his sugar-daddy sargeras for good tho?

[Asrialol]

We don't have the Kor'kron anymore. They were even removed in BFA's beta and replaced with the generic "Horde guard."


When was the last time, you saw the Warsong clan?

Same with the Dragonmaw, minor cameo doesn't count.

How is orcs being a family still mentioned? Orcs only show up as cannon fodder now.

Saurfang has never the orc racial leader, Blizzard have consistently said orcs have no racial leader.

What orcs besides Saurfang, oh and the 90 year old Eitrigg ever do anything anymore?

Ah. So people disprove your arguments, but your counter argument to that is "doesn't count".

Lovely, great to see people open to discussion.

[Polybius]

Neither benevolent nor extremely-violent characters get old to me because I didn't grow up dividing characters into "male-class-characters" or "female-class-characters", making comparisons between who they are and what they're doing, further deciding if they're male or female enough.

Warcraft 3 had characters like Maiev, Vashj and Sylvanas doing a lot of badass stuff and nobody back then hailed them for being "women which push boundaries". Characters weren't created with political or social purposes in mind, but now they definitely are, as has been made clear by the present-day storytellers of Warcraft.

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And I don't get why a number of users on MMOC love spewing drivel about incels whenever a post challenges the current MO of storytelling in WoW, pointing out how almost everything is based on making men "less violent/more sentimental" and making women "more powerful", while also clearly indicating that most of it has been inspired by modern socio-politcal trends (either through panels or personal tweets by the writers).

Never said they're telling us how to live our lives, but it is crystal clear that the way the storytellers live their lives is affecting how the characters in the franchise end up being and that is the point being addressed.

I am one of those who actually like supposed-to-be-hero characters doing good things and the overall narrative of vying for benevolent outcomes, but you seem to be very jaded in your position that whoever doesn't like real life socio-political stuff transmitting over to Warcraft is an incel or whatever else.

It's political and social because they're leading? I mean what do you expect from the leaders of Kul Tiras and the Forsaken? To fit your social commentary and identity politics you inserted where there are none? Because if I recall they still put the spotlight on Varok against Sylvanas. Using your reasoning this would be a "some women can't lead" moment, would it not?

We've been waiting for lore on Jaina and Sylvanas since MoP and it's deemed an agenda because you feel threatened, good lord.

[korijenkins]

How is it wrong as you claim?

He didn't say it was wrong. He said it was sad and little and repeated itself.

[Minikin]

Ah. So people disprove your arguments, but your counter argument to that is "doesn't count".

Lovely, great to see people open to discussion.

OP forgot that we had a whole expansion of warsong orcs popping out of every corner of the pixelated walls. dont u dare disagree with him though! youll morph into an alliance fan boy XD

[Jastall]

Considering that the Orcs got double-teamed by everyone else, including most of their own race, had their city sacked, and have been fighting constantly for decades while being as a society averse to settling down and seriously rebuilding?

Yeah, they should be hurting. The humans gained nothing from Stromwind being sacked or Lordaeron being taken over by the plague. Why should the Orcs get off even more scott-free from SoO than they already did? This coming from an Orc main before everyone cries about muh bias. They are one of the most omnipresent races in the narrative, right up alongside humans the the various elves, and considering their population numbers would by all rights be rock-bottom it barely even makes sense that they're a major Horde race as it is. I'll cry over Taurens or Dwarves feeling neglected and losing shit way, wayyyyyyy before I'll cry about the Orcs.

[Grazrug]

Considering that the Orcs got double-teamed by everyone else, including most of their own race, had their city sacked, and have been fighting constantly for decades while being as a society averse to settling down and seriously rebuilding?

Yeah, they should be hurting. The humans gained nothing from Stromwind being sacked or Lordaeron being taken over by the plague. Why should the Orcs get off even more scott-free from SoO than they already did? This coming from an Orc main before everyone cries about muh bias. They are one of the most omnipresent races in the narrative, right up alongside humans the the various elves, and considering their population numbers would by all rights be rock-bottom it barely even makes sense that they're a major Horde race as it is. I'll cry over Taurens or Dwarves feeling neglected and losing shit way, wayyyyyyy before I'll cry about the Orcs.

It took stormwind like 5 minutes to rebuild and become the strongest kingdom on Azeroth. I see no reason why the Orcs should start getting something nice for once instead of just the finger.

[Varitok]

Anduin is the only decently written character this whole expansion, as much as people want to rag on him.

[Jastall]

It took stormwind like 5 minutes to rebuild and become the strongest kingdom on Azeroth. I see no reason why the Orcs should start getting something nice for once instead of just the finger.

Considering they were able to build Orgrimmar and conduct world wars when a few months before their numbers fit on a few stolen vessels, I think Orcs got that sort of gift already and then some, to say nothing of getting reinforcements literally from another reality.

[Grazrug]

Considering they were able to build Orgrimmar and conduct world wars when a few months before their numbers fit on a few stolen vessels, I think Orcs got that sort of gift already and then some, to say nothing of getting reinforcements literally from another reality.

What nice treatment? Getting villain batted double times and having all your iconic characters killed?

[Jastall]

What nice treatment? Getting villain batted double times and having all your iconic characters killed?

Better than not being involved in the story at all and having little to no characters to speak of in the first place, IE half of the game's races.

As to being villain batted and getting characters killed, while that's fair, it's also a natural outcome of being a society of warriors. Wars have consequences, and SoO had way, way fewer consequences than it should have purely because of gameplay. Lorewise the Orcs should be destitute if not nearly wiped out.

[The Stormbringer]

Isn't that eternal virgin now trapped with his sugar-daddy sargeras for good tho?

Dude had his own harem of humans, elves, and succubi in the Black Temple. I really doubt he's a virgin.

[Syegfryed]

The entire orc narrative build from the books to Cata was entirely destroyed by blizzard with MOP and WoD, making then look like just warmongers villains with the desire to kill and the ones who don't are just a few rare exceptions, now they are just plot device to be killed or be cannon folder/meatshield.

Orgrimmar was raided and sacked, their leader was dethroned, the orcs were labeled as racists for years since then, now the green orcs don't have a leader anymore, the ones who were have now crippling depression and they are making then retarded, they get cast aside from their own faction, the warchief title was taking away and made it a fucking joke, most of their characters are dead or senile and they are being shifted away by the maghar.

Yes they are in a soooo good position, i wonder how many would want this fate to fall in their race

i think the ones with a worst situation are the elves, but they at least have their leaders, but the narrative destroying was worse for the orcs.

[Fetus Rex]

Traitor status.

[Super Dickmann]

Mists and Warlords was a one-two punch in killing the orcs completely. First by destroying virtually every aspect of their characterization, motive and progression over the course of Vanilla to that point in Mists. Then they did one better and turned every single one of their pre-Thrall characters, for whom they have whole cities and forts named for and who are the foundation of their race in the earliest franchise into quest fodder for doing what they were created to do. All brought to you by Green Jesus and the completely surviving WC2 Alliance cast.

Where are they after this prime act of assassination? Irrelevant in their own faction, with their most recognizable members being Eitrigg and Cromush, one of which is out of character and the other of which is a MU Mag'har, i.e neither of the playable kinds of orcs and arguably more of a Forsaken character than an orc. Their lone standout they're meant to rally around is a sadsack in a swamp reliant on the Alliance to make life choices for him and bound to eventually sit the chair because his human overlords allow him.

The one ray of hope is the AU Mag'har, who are basically the Garrosh-WoD-era orcs spun off and given a Void Elf morality license that lets them do all the things they used to do but without people bitching or acknowledging anything. The MU orcs though are a lost cause.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

People are really over exaggerating here. Orcs, have a better position in game and lore than most of the other races. Sure, while things are a rollercoaster for them, at least things are straight shit for them:

Draenei - nothing but losses - in the story I think the Exodar is wrecked? Lost lore character, gained none.
Dwarf - Nothing too bad, only story relevance has been Magni, but he is now true neutral and only attached to the Azeroth storyline.
Gnome - Only bad, no development or interesting things outside of Mekkatorgue who is a raid boss and "injured beyond help"
Human - Mostly losses lorewise with only Anduin doing anything interesting
Night Elf - 100% losses. 2 strong characters nerfed, lost all of the holdings on Kalimdor
Worgen - Lost their whole city, and have immigrating to Darnassus, lost that too


Pandaren - wrecked city - little development for either faction


Blood Elf - stayed pretty steady - gets decent lore and hasn't lost anything too much
Goblin - Recent story development during BfA to foil the Alliance
Orc - still has massive forces and massive holdings despite being in a civil war recently and losing many lore figures
Tauren - Getting story development in the way of Baine
Troll - massive story developments in the Zandalari - more lore figures and power
Undead - story development in the way of Sylvanas - lost the UC and holdings around it
Nightborne - nothing bad? Kept their huge city from Legion
Highmountain - Nothing bad?


I don't think the Orcs have anything to complain about. Losing some lore figures to even out how the important Horde names are spread around seems like it something that both pleases people who want Horde story and want room for other Horde races.

Meanwhile the Alliance gained some flavor in the Void Elves and Lightforged - who haven't done too much outside of Umbric I guess. Darnassus wrecked, and both Malfurion and Tyrande nerfed... I dunno...

[Overlordd]

The entire orc narrative build from the books to Cata was entirely destroyed by blizzard with MOP and WoD, making then look like just warmongers villains with the desire to kill and the ones who don't are just a few rare exceptions, now they are just plot device to be killed or be cannon folder/meatshield.

Orgrimmar was raided and sacked, their leader was dethroned, the orcs were labeled as racists for years since then, now the green orcs don't have a leader anymore, the ones who were have now crippling depression and they are making then retarded, they get cast aside from their own faction, the warchief title was taking away and made it a fucking joke, most of their characters are dead or senile and they are being shifted away by the maghar.

Yes they are in a soooo good position, i wonder how many would want this fate to fall in their race

i think the ones with a worst situation are the elves, but they at least have their leaders, but the narrative destroying was worse for the orcs.

This right here. I dont understand people that join the Horde but "hate the Orcs". I mean you are free to hate them, but advocating that they should be a minor race and almost never make an appearance is just pitiful considering that the Horde was build by them.

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People are really over exaggerating here. Orcs, have a better position in game and lore than most of the other races. Sure, while things are a rollercoaster for them, at least things are straight shit for them:

Draenei - nothing but losses - in the story I think the Exodar is wrecked? Lost lore character, gained none.
Dwarf - Nothing too bad, only story relevance has been Magni, but he is now true neutral and only attached to the Azeroth storyline.
Gnome - Only bad, no development or interesting things outside of Mekkatorgue who is a raid boss and "injured beyond help"
Human - Mostly losses lorewise with only Anduin doing anything interesting
Night Elf - 100% losses. 2 strong characters nerfed, lost all of the holdings on Kalimdor
Worgen - Lost their whole city, and have immigrating to Darnassus, lost that too


Pandaren - wrecked city - little development for either faction


Blood Elf - stayed pretty steady - gets decent lore and hasn't lost anything too much
Goblin - Recent story development during BfA to foil the Alliance
Orc - still has massive forces and massive holdings despite being in a civil war recently and losing many lore figures
Tauren - Getting story development in the way of Baine
Troll - massive story developments in the Zandalari - more lore figures and power
Undead - story development in the way of Sylvanas - lost the UC and holdings around it
Nightborne - nothing bad? Kept their huge city from Legion
Highmountain - Nothing bad?


I don't think the Orcs have anything to complain about. Losing some lore figures to even out how the important Horde names are spread around seems like it something that both pleases people who want Horde story and want room for other Horde races.

Meanwhile the Alliance gained some flavor in the Void Elves and Lightforged - who haven't done too much outside of Umbric I guess. Darnassus wrecked, and both Malfurion and Tyrande nerfed... I dunno...

"Humans gained nothing" ah I see. So all the human lore where they get all the spotlight with the Wrynn family, Kul Tiras and Jaina, rebuilded Stromgarde is nothing? Relook your list because it is clear where your bias stands.

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Again, there are just as many Alliance kills as there are Horde.

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I make 1 fuck-up, and you all me an alliance fanboy?

Okay then, pal.

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Why are you replying to my comment as if I said all this? Did you read my post?

"Where did you get that there is Idea of Orcs Moving on from the past?"

Warcraft 3.

"Orcs will follow their warchief because it's honorable. They do not question their warchief. They are not humans."

Humans also do this. Look at the Scarlet Crusade. Look at every other race. The hell?

"Orcs are not evil. Mannoroth made them be."

Again, never said they were prior to Mannoroth.

Everything else, I didn't say. Like, huh?!

"Where is the irony?"

Orcs...are very minor the Horde now, even if you include/exclude OP's "claim".

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Oh, and before any of y'all continue, i've main'd Horde since TBC. Never call me an Alliance fanboy ever again, please. Thanks.

Played since TBC Horde but never saw the Kor'Kron?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

This right here. I dont understand people that join the Horde but "hate the Orcs". I mean you are free to hate them, but advocating that they should be a minor race and almost never make an appearance is just pitiful considering that the Horde was build by them.

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"Humans gained nothing" ah I see. So all the human lore where they get all the spotlight with the Wrynn family, Kul Tiras and Jaina, rebuilded Stromgarde is nothing? Relook your list because it is clear where your bias stands.

"Wrynn family" I literally brought Anduin up, maybe you should learn to read? Stromgarde is also a warfront, not purely Alliance territory. The point is to fight over it akin to battegrounds.

Maybe use your brain before you jump the gun, all because my post doesn't agree with your poor outlook on the game.

Infracted.

[Overlordd]

"Wrynn family" I literally brought Anduin up, maybe you should learn to read? Stromgarde is also a warfront, not purely Alliance territory. The point is to fight over it akin to battegrounds.

Maybe use your brain before you jump the gun, all because my post doesn't agree with your poor outlook on the game.

My poor outlook? WoD was all about that warcraft 1 feeling about going back in time to slaughter some Orcs. The Lords of War videos were all a narrative of Varian dealing with his past. Just because they are Orcs does not mean they are Horde aligned.

Legion started off with the Legion trailer and again, Varian being the protagonist in the story. Varian heroically dying that both factions had to sit through. Anduin dealing with his father. The Kirin Tor and Khadgar which is still mainly a human faction. Turalyon and his waifu Alleria coming back into the fray.

Now with BfA, they get both old and new introduced characters. Kul Tiras, Jaina and Katherine proudmoore. Bolvar's daughter. Rebuilded Stromgarde.

Yeah poor humans barely get the focus in the storyline and have lost so much, you are right. /s

[Syegfryed]

This right here. I dont understand people that join the Horde but "hate the Orcs". I mean you are free to hate them, but advocating that they should be a minor race and almost never make an appearance is just pitiful considering that the Horde was build by them.

it come from the nu-horde, mostly blood elves and undead players, mostly BE who want to be the center of the faction,, they think just because they are popular they need to be the core race, and the orcs, trolls and taurens, should be shifted away because they are ugly and they don't like their thematic.

Already saw so many posts of "silvermoon should be the horde capital" "horde should be leaded by the elves" "lorthemar for warchief" "orcs don't make sense to be warchief" and worse.

Played since TBC Horde but never saw the Kor'Kron?

They are in shadowmoon valley

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don't think the Orcs have anything to complain about.

Are you like for real? honestly? read again the comment above yours and mine and tell me again we have nothing to complaint

like i said, i dare any other race trade their development for what happen to the orcs, cause i would trade any day