New Stormwind Portal Room - Kirin Tor broke their neutrality again?

[Gorsameth]

It may not be shown ingame, because Blizzard pretends they don't exist until its needed, but there is no reality in which the Cenarion Circle is neutral after Sylvanas burned down Teldrassil, not to mention the CC's likely stance on use of Blight considering its damage to the environment.

[Quaade]

This is a strategy. You send a handful of soldiers to certain death to save the others.

Teldrassil was an abomination that shouldn't exist.

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Alliance propaganda. Sylvanas doesn't want to genocide everything. She just wants to destroy the Alliance to ensure peace on Azeroth. If there was anyone who wants to genocide somebody, it would be Jaina or Alleria.


Uther was a fool. There were no reason to spare the lives of these people. All I would do differently than Arthas is that I would bombard the city, because I wouldn't want my soldiers to be infested.

Except Teldrassil happened, Sylvanas ordered it in a REEEEE. That's the reality, the intent might have been different. The result, and thus the reality was something different. Plan 9 From Outer Space was intended to be a good movie, the result and the reality is that it's a mess that's so bad it's good.

Sylvanas has genocided, she has made the decision to do it once, and once it's been excused it's easier to excuse it the next time. She's also expressed interest in turning every human into a Forsaken because then they'll be unable to discriminate against the Forsaken.

Also Sylvanas' schemata seems to be "everyone who can potentially hurt me must die." Do you honestly think she'll stop if 50% of the Alliance is destroyed? She'll just see it as an opportunity to eradicate the remaining 50%. That's what "destroy" means to someone who sees everyone as personal enemies. The Rwandan genocide was also meant to destroy the Tutis. Destroy as in eradicating them completely.

And someone with that outlook will never stop with just her clear enemy. Once she destroys the Alliance her paranoia will make her see everyone that even poses an imaginary threat as an enemy that needs to be killed.

Let's say that she kills all the humans and raises them as Forsaken, suddenly the Forsaken now has the population of Orcs. At this point, Baine would probably have had enough and rebel against her. The Tauren have become her enemy, her reaction? Telling the Horde that the Tauren have betrayed the Horde and needs to be punished. Since the Horde as a whole are pretty much Pavlovian dogs to the will of the Warchief they attack and kill the Tauren. Nothing stops her from flying over Mulgore in a fleet of airships and Blight the place.

After this moment some of the Orcs would say "wait a minute, we betrayed our original allies, this Warchief is like Garrosh, we have to unseat her."

Now the Orcs are enemies too. The issue is that the Tauren are now gone and Sylvanas has an army of equal size, the Blight and can raise the dead Orcs as skeletons to fight their previous allies.

Some of the Trolls would help her based on "if we help her she might spare us."

The Trolls are now a potential resistance, she wipes them out as well.

That leaves Pandarans, BE, NB, Hm Tauren, and Goblins.

She's ordered the BE to stay clear of the conflict, the NB has too by virtue of them being friends with the BE, at this Lor'themar Theron will probably see Sylvanas as Arthas 2.0 and decide to do something. The BE are now enemies as well so she justifies wiping them out by saying they were the enemies of the Forsaken.

This will upset the NB, at this point she Blights and invades Suramar and wipes them out. In horror, the Hm Tauren has retreated from the Horde back to Hm. Since Sylvanas is already on TBI she'll turn north and wipe out Highmountain.

She'll give the Pandarans an ultimatum to stay on their island and in Pandaria or be wiped out. Once she's ready she'll wipe them out as well.

That leaves the Goblins. Goblins works for the highest bidder and the leader after Gallywix might decide she's bad for business, so better wipe them out as well.

After which Azeroth is a world of the Forsaken, she's finally safe and after about a year the Void Lords invade and wipe out the Forsaken and her since she's all alone and in her short sightenedness has decided that genocide is easier than diplomacy.

Also, in late MoP Jaina took the power of the Iris and made a tsunami that would have wiped out Orgrimmar. After Thrall and Kalecgos spoke to her she decided to cancel the tsunami as it was wrong to have civilians pay for the actions of a few.

The Alliance and the leaders of the Alliance have shown great restraint while Sylvanas has been "REEEEEEEEEEEEE, KILL THEM ALL!"

[matrix123mko]

I think what he was referring to was, how can a neutral group that has peace and land healing at its core just sit idly by and watch these attacks go on that are an attack on nature itself and the balance of things. Also, there were Cenarion Circle and other neutral groups in Darnassus as well.

They stepped in when Rag came back and he didn't really do a lot of damage yet. They stepped in because of what he was capable of, and how he would ruin nature's balance. Sylvanas and her blight have done 200x more than anything Rag did.

Sylvanas doesn't plan to burn Nordrassil for now, but if the night elves will make a base there, it will have to burn.

[Magnagarde]

The Silver Covenant mages from the city of Dalaran have always been Alliance-alligned. The city was Alliance-alligned untill recently too. To expect that the Silver Covenant drops allegiance to the Alliance, simply because the Horde was recently allowed to return to Dalaran, doesn't make sense.

What this means is that the Alliance-alligned Silver Covenant, from the city of Dalaran, is keeping the Alliance's portal open to said city. That's all there is to it and it makes perfect sense.

[Elemenion]

The Silver Covenant mages from the city of Dalaran have always been Alliance-alligned. The city was Alliance-alligned untill recently too. To expect that the Silver Covenant drops allegiance to the Alliance, simply because the Horde was recently allowed to return to Dalaran, doesn't make sense.

What this means is that the Alliance-alligned Silver Covenant, from the city of Dalaran, is keeping the Alliance's portal open to said city. That's all there is to it and it makes perfect sense.

For the last time, I am not talking about the portals, or the ones around it.....

[Zandalariprelate]

And the Alliance sanctuary in Legion is used by Gilneans, but we still get Silver Covenant high elves.

Well maybe they are keeping the worgen for another kind of portal to another city, who knows

[Amaterasu65]

Well maybe they are keeping the worgen for another kind of portal to another city, who knows

One gnome and one worgen channel the portal to Draenor.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Kirin Tor is faction-bipolar

[Grazrug]

Neutrality was a total nonsense in the first place. It was basically the ruination of Alliance races in favor of horde and another example why this company is horde biased.

"omg blizzard allows the horde to participate in neutral content instead of locking it away ft then and wipe the faction out! Totally horde bias omg!!!!!"

[Magnagarde]

For the last time, I am not talking about the portals, or the ones around it.....

If that's the main question you're raising, then I'll have to ask you why you're that surprised? Human mastery of the arcane materialized through the city-state of Dalaran, after being taught the ways of magic by the high elves. The Kirin Tor are synonimous with human mages and human mastery over magic, which is why the last-remaining human kingdom of Stormwind has the Kirin Tor banners in places like these, which heavily related to the crafts of mages. I can go as far as saying that the Kirin Tor embody the magical englightment of humans.

It isn't far-fetched to assume that most of the mages of Stormwind come directly from the Kirin Tor. Humans from various kingdoms, such as Jaina, would go to Dalaran to be trained in magic and most other human mages most likely underwent the same path of learning on how to become a mage. It is only after Warcraft 3 that we can argue about humans being properly trained in magic outside of Dalaran and even then, most of those would definitely have to be young mage upstarts.



This is however part of a wider storytelling problem, in which the de-Alliancization of various places, factions and organizations took place throughout WoW, either by disalligning the aforementioned things from the Alliance as a whole or from specific Alliance-alligned races. It is also an issue for the Horde because it suffers from having to comform, making it shed unique identity and story potential. The examples include the Order of the Silver Hand (originally an order of the Alliance), the druid followers of Cenarius (originally exclusive to the night elves, who are Alliance), the Kirin Tor (originally exclusive to the Alliance and its humans and high elves, with the high elves that were to become blood elves being run out of the city as far back as Garithos and those who didn't follow Kael'thas remaining Alliance) and more. Blizzard is unable to create Horde-unique parallels to the Alliance, which is why it then forces the Horde into Alliance stuff, basically ruining both as one assimilates and the other deteriorates.

Ogres could've been the perfect substitutes to the Alliance magic-wielding elves; they're more primal, more reckless and have unique story and lore to themselves. On top of that, the Horde had much more expertise in using fel magic, with void magic being innately tied to the orcs of the Shadowmoon clan. Instead of developing the story of Horde-alligned races and their assets, Blizzard goes the easy and uninspiring route of turning Alliance stuff into neutral stuff.

[therealstegblob]

All I wanted to do was come in to say that the portal rooms look fucking fantastic, specifically the Orgrimmar one. Orgrimmar is such a boring looking city compared to Stormwind (actually they're both a tad boring but at least Stormwind's layout and streets make it seem the most like a real city). I'd love if they made Stormwind and Orgrimmar about 5 times larger and phased them at their gates (similar to Garrison-style terrain phasing) and facelifted both cities. The architecture of the Underhold area in Siege of Orgrimmar was really cool looking and this new portal room upped that to an even better (and less 'sinister underground orc base' aesthetic) level.

I wish we could get a version of Orgrimmar with all these carved tunnels and chambers in the side of the valley, with sprawling areas of buildings and attractions within the valley itself.

[Highlord Hanibuhl]

That room looks sick!

[Briselody]

Sylvanas doesn't plan to burn Nordrassil for now, but if the night elves will make a base there, it will have to burn.

If you're role-playing as a brain-washed Forsaken drone, you're doing it beautifully.

[Alixie]

What about their potential families in Quel'thalas and Orgrimmar? Do you know that Stormwidians were a little isolated from other kingdoms? If I was going to search for Dalaranians' families, I would start among the Forsaken.

The blood elves probably dont have any family left in the Alliance after they blew one of the largest settlements of High Elves, Theramore, to kingdom come themselves. Then sat by as Sylvanas sicked her pets to kill High Elves in the Plaguelands, and sat by as the trolls sent players to kill High Elves in the Hinterlands.

Very unprovoked. Say that to forsaken killed in Stormheim.

Not that the Forsaken attacked two nations unprovoked, Gilneas and Dalaran, but when we kill undead they say things like, "Thank you." and "Its finally over."

Yeah, maybe Dalaran watched Teldrassil burning and thought, "Maybe we shouldn't trust the Horde not to attack us again."

[DeicideUH]

If we consider the portal room a hint towards current state of Dalaran, it seems the city has left the Broken Isles. I'd say because it was too close to Suramar, now a Horde city, and could be seen as a threat. Both Horde and Alliance portals now lead to Azsuna (IMO, Horde portal should take the player to Horde-controlled Nighthold), while the portal to Northrend leads to Dalaran.

Interestingly enough, it's the Silver Covenant that keeps the portal to Dalaran for Alliance, but Argent Crusade forsaken that keeps the Horde one. To me, this indicates most of the Horde presence in the city has left it.

There's also a kirin tor emissary in the Horde portal room.

From all that, my guess is that Dalaran is still neutral, but there are tensions with the Horde, prompting the Kirin Tor to stay cautious to not be seen as a threat.

[Aeula]

Don't know if anyone's pointed this out yet, but the Argent Crusade make the Dalaran portal for the Horde.

Guess they're on our side, right?

[Lelkowski]

Don't know if anyone's pointed this out yet, but the Argent Crusade make the Dalaran portal for the Horde.

Guess they're on our side, right?

They had to choose: Tits of Sylvanas or big, righteous human potential of Anduin.

[Kiri]

EDIT: I noticed that many people don't understand what I'm saying, so just to clarify : I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE PORTALS AND THEIR KEEPERS! I am talking about the entire room. You can see at least one Dalaran mage at the start and eight Kirin Tor banners in the entire room. Without counting the ones next to the Dalaran portal.



Have you seen the new portal room of Stormwind? Well if you haven't, here it is :




Kirin Tor banners are all over the place, literally. You can even see some Dalaran mages hanging around. What the hell? Inside the new Orgrimmar portal room they have zero presence. I am not the best lore guy, but I know well enough that in the past they have broken their neutrality at least twice, siding with the Alliance. In Legion they invited the Horde yet again, but now this, if anything, clearly shows their preference.

As a Horde player, I do not want ever again to work with these guys. Even in Legion I didn't want to. I don't trust them, I don't like them, for perfectly good, ogvious reasons. Stop forcing them in our faces.

Could be as simple as the alliance asking them for assistance in setting this up - since that tower and the Alliance portal network was initially setup by Dalaran mages anyway - and the Horde did not bother to? That is what Dalaran has always done. Offering magical expertise to either side, safeguarding portal networks and dangerous magical artifacts, it is kind of their job. Much like the Cenarion Circle assists in protecting nature and the Earthen Ring the elements. If the Horde asks the Cenarion Circle to help grow some crops to feed their people - some of which might go to war with the alliance - then that does not mean the Circle is taking a side. Same with the Kirin Tor. I mean, if they ported Dalaran right over Org and dropped a Manabomb then you would have a point. But this? This is just business as usual. Horde just has gotten its own Dalaran now for these matters, so they don't need to ask for outside expertise.

[Mehrunes]

While Kirin Tor getting infected with Jaina's yoyoitis wouldn't surprise me, I need to comment on something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread so far. I.e. how much smaller the Horde portal room is and how it doesn't require you to run through a tower to portal into the portal room first. This is yet another case of Horde bias on Blizzard's side, since Horde can get to each individual portal faster.

[Moonrage]

After all the crap Sylvanas has done, I'd be surprised if the Kirin Tor didn't break their neutrality and joined the Alliance. They were a human kingdom to begin with, making them neutral was obvious Horde bias.