Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

You are 100% correct. Not all Kul'tirans are big. There are plenty of normal sized Kul'tirans. Now why do you think that is?

Normal Kul'tirans exist. They're part of the Alliance. Yet you cant play as them, only the fat ones. This is because you already have regular humans despite coming from different nations.

Now I doubt you'll be getting fat Helves. You get the point I'm making?

You realize you helped the High Elf argument right?

Review of your points:

1) Normal Kul'Tirans exist
2) They're part of the Alliance
3) Can only play as fat Kul'Tirans
4) Due to regular Humans already being playable

Let's compare these points to High Elves

1) Normal High Elves exist
2) They're part of the Alliance
3) Can only play as the Void ones
4) Due to Normal High Elves already being playable (FALSE)

Oh wait, the last point isn't true regarding the High Elves on Alliance. Therefore they become a valid option for request.

[Garfurion]

You are 100% correct. Not all Kul'tirans are big. There are plenty of normal sized Kul'tirans. Now why do you think that is?

Normal Kul'tirans exist. They're part of the Alliance. Yet you cant play as them, only the fat ones. This is because you already have regular humans despite coming from different nations.

Now I doubt you'll be getting fat Helves. You get the point I'm making?

I doubt that as well. They could easily be more muscular though (e.g. Highvale Elves who stopped using magic so now have to do more manual labor) to differentiate them from Void Elves.

[LilSaihah]

Oh wait, the last point isn't true regarding the High Elves on Alliance. Therefore they become a valid option for request.

Yeah, High Elves aren't available on the Alliance. They're playable on the Horde though. They've been renamed Blood Elves which I'll agree is rather deceptive, but they are there and available as a playable race.

Less facetiously, it's a pretty clear precedent that you don't really get to play as dissidents, otherwise you'd probably get to play any race on either faction. Why not? There's probably some minority group from every race that allies with the other faction. That's probably actually an interesting design direction to take, and there's a case for it, but that's not the game WoW is nor the game it should be, for better or worse.

I doubt that as well. They could easily be more muscular though (e.g. Highvale Elves who stopped using magic so now have to do more manual labor) to differentiate them from Void Elves.

If your fantasy is hella fit elf babes, Night Elves are right there.

[Lumineus]

So I take it fawning over Obelisk's bullshit constitutes "contribution" to the thread, then?

P.S. No need to hide behind the Scrapbot, Aucald.

[Zulkhan]

P.S. No need to hide behind the Scrapbot, Aucald.

The conspiration against the poor oppressed High Elfers is getting you, watch out people.

[Ielenia]

Doesn't change the fact that high elfs are already playable on the Horde.

No, they're not. Blood elves are. Not high elves.

How hard is it to understand that blood elfs are high elfs?

How hard is it to understand that when you sever all ties with a certain group, you lose the right to call yourself as part of said group?

There is a group of Alliance aligned high elfs that are not playable, but the VAST majority of the high elven society is currently already playable....

And that is that group of elves that the high elf community wants, not the blood elves in the Horde.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes. It is wrong because of a reason you keep willingly ignoring: when high elf supporters mention the name "high elf", they are not talking about blood elves. They are specifically talking about those high elves that did not "rebrand" themselves as "blood elves".

And again, the pro High Elf community does not have a veto on defining what a High Elf is especially considering the way they define it, as excluding Blood Elves, is incorrect. We have multiple Blizzard sources confirming that Blood Elves are High Elves. If you want to specify a specific group of High Elves, you can use a qualifying adjective such as 'Alliance', 'Dalaran' or 'Silver Covenant'. But attempting to define that group as High Elves, and then defining Blood Elves as outside that group, is exactly the sort of problem allowing playable Alliance High Elves cause. Blood Elves are the heirs and successors to the High Elf narrative, which they carry forward within the storyline.

Hence why blood elves can only influence the narrative of blood elves. Blood elves "cut off" their "race relationship" with high elves when they did two things: one, "re-brand" themselves as "blood elves", and two, not only kicked out of Silvermoon those who did not follow Kael'Thas' teachings, but also completely cut relations with them. They lost any right they had to "decide for high elves" when they did those two things.

Blood Elves can no more cut off their racial relationship with High Elves than you or I can cut off our race relationship with Humanity. Blood Elves ARE High Elves on every single level. Biologically, no difference. Culturally, no difference. Thematically, no difference. The only thing that was changed was a single adjective in recognition of what they had lost. Yet into that single change of adjective you and other pro high elfers imagine a chasm of difference that nobody else sees.

And here you are, displaying another evasion. At no point I ever argued any of those things, and the part of my post you're responding to doesn't even mention any of those things too. It only talks about your refusal to address the fact that when the name "high elf" is mentioned by the HE community, they are not talking about blood elves in the least.

As stated before I reject the right of pro Alliance High Elf zealots to redefine the term High Elf as they see fit. I don't care that when you say High Elf it means a small group of refugees and traitors occupying a few apartments in Dalaran whom you assign the right to determine what a High Elf is. That is not your right. I have no problem using the term High Elf as shorthand to refer to those Elves in other contexts, but I make certain to be as specific as possible with a pro High Elfer such as yourself who wishes to appropriate the term for their chosen few, and then to exclude Blood Elves from the definition.

... Do you even know what hypothesis means? What "hypothetical" means? Since you seem to like dictionary definitions, here you go:
Hypothesis: "A hypothesis is an idea which is suggested as a possible explanation for a particular situation or condition, but which has not yet been proved to be correct."
Hypothetical: "If something is hypothetical, it is based on possible ideas or situations rather than actual ones."

If there were an existing example of an actual blood elf abandoning the moniker "blood elf" and joining the Silver Covenant, it wouldn't be a hypothesis. It'd be a fact.

Seems you got me, in agreeing what you put forward was possible I misspoke on the definition of 'hypothesis'.

If they aren't, then high elves are not blood elves.

Nightborne have been separated from Night Elves for ten thousand years. They have arcane tattoos, different skin tones, different hair colours, males have a noticeably thinner musculature, culturally they preserve what Night Elven civilization was before the fall. Aesthetically they look different and maintain a completely different architecture. Thematically these are urban, arcane elves of high culture against arboreal, druidic elves who live a more rustic existence.

Void Elves have only been separated from Blood Elves for just under a year, but the evolution the Nightborne took millenia to accomplish was done in five minutes courtesy of a Void Prince bombarding them with massive amounts of void energy. Culturally, thematically and aesthetically they are Blood/High Elves twisted by the void, with the void now forming the center of their new culture in lieu of the light.

Behind both groups, solid rationales as to why they are variants and allowable as Allied races. It is also arguable that they are as far thematically from their parent races as it possible to get, whereas other Allied Races such as the Mag'har Orcs, Lightforged Draenei and Hightmountain Tauren are little more than a new customization package of already existing core races within their factions.

And because they are clear variants, you are insisting that High Elves are different from Blood Elves beyond the political? I mean, how do you make that logical jump?
What's the story that makes them variants? I know the story the pro High Elf community tells itself...that High Elves are super special loyal best friends of Humans who are noble and humble and some of them might have tattoos and a special haircut..but if that's all you are going on then your response 'If they aren't, then high elves are not blood elves' is a nonsense.

You were the one who brought it up. You brought it upon yourself.

Stop the dishonesty. Over and over I mentioned "up close", never "moderate distance".

Which is 100% false unless you are practically blind. The only ridiculousness here is this attempt you have to claim that you cannot differentiate gnomes from draenei.

And I explained why I did so, 'reductio ad absurdum', because attempting to argue that Void Elves and Blood Elves are identical when viewed at a certain distance leads to an extreme that at a great enough distance, you cannot easily tell apart a Gnome or a Draenei. Gnomes are Draenei are not identical, no matter the distance or your perception of them based on that distance. Blood Elves and Void Elves are not identical, no matter the distance. All that matters is that difference exists, which it plainly does.

Here's a further example as to why this is dumb. If a Shih tzu and a chihuahua are sitting side by side but you are so far away that all you can see is that they are some form of dog, all you can argue is that they are both dogs. You can't argue they are both chihuahuas because from your perspective you can't tell them apart.

This is why your original argument on this particular point deserves continued mockery and why I am surprised you keep digging yourself into a hole by trying to justify it. This is elementary stuff. I feel like Father Ted in the episode where he was trying to explain to Father Dougal the difference between close and far away...



The nature of something is not altered by how you perceive it. The problem is your perception (on every level the problem with this metaphor is your perception).

Please stop with the idiotic strawman. This "shared model" BS argument is none other than your argument, and of those who are against the idea of high elves being playable. You are the ones who keep constantly parroting this "argument" in pro-high elf discussions. "Muh faction identity" "You just want muh blood elf model!"

And now you have the gall of trying to stick that idiotic argument on me, and on the high elf supporters? How incredibly dishonest of you.

You are the one attempting to argue that a Void Elf in armour is equal to a Blood Elf in armour and that this somehow demolishes the faction wall so you are the one pushing this particular argument. To achieve this result, you disregard theme, aesthetics, culture and lore despite how I have consistently mentioned that these are important factors and focus solely on the model. Had the model been what this debate was about, Void Elves would have been a pro High Elf complete victory. Instead you have treated it as a 'slap in the face' and anti high elfers have treated it as a compromise we can live with.

Void Elves do not break the faction wall. They are not Blood/High Elves. The identity of the Horde and the integrity of the Blood Elves are preserved. And the compromise is that you got a variant at all, frankly I'd have preferred to give you nothing and for the nightborne not to have existed but c'est la vie.

There is no "link" between gameplay and lore terms. At all. Those are two separate entities.

Of course they are. That's why I refer to them separately as gameplay and lore rather than coining a portmanteau like gamlor or lorplay. But Gameplay and Lore shape each other, they aren't put in boxes that never interact. I have given you several examples where this has happened. You simply restate that that isn't the case.

The fact that I presented one example that proved you wrong, proves you entirely wrong as you are arguing for an absolute position and an absolute that is not absolute is one that cannot be held.

It's not an "ad hominem" when it is directly relevant to the issue. You do misuse words, and intentionally stick to your wrongful definitions even when called out.

Again back to the definition of Alliance High Elf, which is wrong how? My definition comes straight from the Game Director. He sort of outranks you and your pals.

Tell you what, get a degree in game design. Apply to Blizzard, get accepted, join the WoW team, ascend to the highest rank within that team of Game Director, put forward your case to the Blizzard Historians and the lore gurus within that team and if after all that they accept your proposal that Blood Elves and High Elves are entirely different things then you can put that forward publicly as word of god and I will accept it.

Until then you are a biased fan with the agenda of playable Alliance High Elves who is desperate to prove Alliance High Elves are different from Blood Elves in pursuit of that goal despite the fact everything we know from in game and out contradicts that position. I know it's frustrating to hold to your position you just KNOW is true and being told by everyone outside your clique that the facts we have don't agree, but look on the bright side. You're one of the few people who can now claim a measure of empathy with the Flat Earth community.

No, it's a pretty much apt example, because you're claiming a race that is 100% divided between two factions is somehow "neutral".

Then Germany is the wrong example again. What you want is Cuba. 100% of Cuban territory under Communist rule. Vast majority of Cubans under Communist rule. Small emigre community in Florida pissed that their country is in the wrong camp.

So, you're saying your ""lore"" distinction between "core races" and "allied races" is that "allied races" have been recruited by a "random but specific hero controlled by the player", while the "core races" were not? And you honestly don't see the absurdity of what you just wrote?

Not really. A core race is so intrinsic to the faction you can play them from the get go whereas Allied races have to be earned in game. Their intrinsic nature is a by-product of their lore standing with the faction.

Except you're the only one trying to tout gameplay here. I'm talking 100% lore. The answer to the question "why does the One Ring can only be destroyed in Mount Doom" is not "because the author wanted so."

You are attempting to argue an absolute in a video game and to do so, in your original answer, you left video games altogether and went to a book. It was simply happy chance that that particular moment had been adapted into a video game in the same genre as WoW, allowing me an actual point of comparison.

[Aldo Hawk]

Doesn't change the fact that high elfs are already playable on the Horde. How hard is it to understand that blood elfs are high elfs? There is a group of Alliance aligned high elfs that are not playable, but the VAST majority of the high elven society is currently already playable....

And this is relevant to the discussion because?...

There are HE aligned with the alliance, members of that faction. BE do not enter in that dynamic, they are just members of the horde and that's it.


@Obelisk Kai Alliance HE are members of the alliance that separated themselves from their homeland for different reasons such as forsake their past for not accepting the way their kingdom were evolving.

These reasons are variable: Escaping the dictatorship that took place in Quel'thalas and were mind controlling dissidents to avoid chaos in the population, using fel as a source of magic with all what that means, stealing mana from living creatures instead of learning to live without consuming it, avoiding the relations with the horde in pro of keeping boundaries with the alliance or de facto not returning to Quel'thalas because they were former members of the alliance, etc...

HE are not exactly the -same- as BE, they are the same race, obviously, -not- the same group of members of such race, they changed things about their lives and they are members of the alliance, not the horde.

The HE petition is not built on quicksands as you want to pretend, this kind of supporting over long periods of time would not be possible if it came out of thin air don't you think?

HE have their place on the alliance as long as BE had it in the horde, people just want that playable option to have it's place on the allied race system and that is not a whim, is a desire supported by evidence saw in the lore and in the game.

[Maljinwo]

The true question here is... when are we getting Alliance Goblins?

There's one on the SI:7. Clearly, playable race material

[Aldo Hawk]

The true question here is... when are we getting Alliance Goblins?

There's one on the SI:7. Clearly, playable race material

Oh yes and there is a black dragon shapeshifted into a Highmountain Tauren in the horde, shapeshifting black dragons for the horde when?

No pruebas nada.

[Maljinwo]

Oh yes and there is a black dragon shapeshifted into a Highmountain Tauren in the horde, shapeshifting black dragons for the horde when?

No pruebas nada.

Si querés hablo español también.
Blood elves are High Elves. They are already playable.

Void elves, while shitty, were a compromise to make the Blood Elf model for the Alliance. Ya should be glad you get your own elves at this point.
And even then, it's better than "Elves but with blue eyes"

At least they get a minor cultural shift

[Aldo Hawk]

Si querés hablo español también.
Blood elves are High Elves. They are already playable.

Void elves, while shitty, were a compromise to make the Blood Elf model for the Alliance. Ya should be glad you get your own elves at this point.
And even then, it's better than "Elves but with blue eyes"

At least they get a minor cultural shift

Void Elves were what was asked but completelly upside down.

In fact, HE requests -rocketed- after VE were released, that tells a lot.

[Maljinwo]

Void Elves were what was asked but completelly upside down.

In fact, HE requests -rocketed- after VE were released, that tells a lot.

And they are still the most played Allied Race.
It's an elf fantasy.
On the Alliance.

And hey, while an asspull, there was *at least* more thought put into them than "ehh... color their eyes blue and done. Now give me $15 for a Faction change"

And there are High Elves learning the void on Telogrus Rift.

[Garfurion]

Oh yes and there is a black dragon shapeshifted into a Highmountain Tauren in the horde, shapeshifting black dragons for the horde when?

Maybe it's time to petition Blizzard to officially make Wrathion an Alliance character so shapeshifting black dragons can become neutral

[FlubberPuddy]

Yeah, High Elves aren't available on the Alliance. They're playable on the Horde though. They've been renamed Blood Elves which I'll agree is rather deceptive, but they are there and available as a playable race.

Again we have someone equating the high elf race with the requested group that refer to themselves as High Elves.

Show me where Blood Elves of today refer to themselves as High Elves and you'd have a point here. Otherwise you're just showing you only took a surface level look at the request or can't understand the difference between the High Elves on Alliance and high elf the race.

Btw, if we were going by races Blizzard wouldn't be soon having 3 different types of Humans, or the duplicates of Trolls, Dwarves, Orcs, etc.

I wonder if you also believe that Draenei is a race with how you're talking about the above.

Less facetiously, it's a pretty clear precedent that you don't really get to play as dissidents, otherwise you'd probably get to play any race on either faction. Why not? There's probably some minority group from every race that allies with the other faction. That's probably actually an interesting design direction to take, and there's a case for it, but that's not the game WoW is nor the game it should be, for better or worse.

Lol let me show you the dissidents of races you get that are playable before Allied Races:

- Darkspear Trolls
- Draenei
- Goblins

Now let me show you dissidents of races that are playable after Allied Races:

- Nightborne
- Dark Iron Dwarves
- Void Elves

Each of these races that are playable are dissident groups from their own race. If you're talking about dissidents between factions then there's already two:

- Nightborne
- Void Elves

So we've had some headway into that area. Whether it continues or not will be based on future AR. But it's ridiculous to say "you don't really get to play as dissidents" because in reality Void Elves are a dissident group of Blood Elves.

People who are requesting Alliance High Elves though don't give a shit about Blood Elves. Some people keep trying to take the focus back to Blood Elves when they're not a factor in the request of an Alliance elf group that refer to themselves as High Elves.

Some people, like typical human nature, are just making it more about themselves (the Blood Elf are High Elf people) cuz I guess they want to feel noticed.

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The true question here is... when are we getting Alliance Goblins?

There's one on the SI:7. Clearly, playable race material

If this is your logic that a single Goblin is clearly playable race material then you should be gung-ho for Alliance High Elves since there's 100x more of em than the single Goblin.

[Evilfish]

If this is your logic that a single Goblin is clearly playable race material then you should be gung-ho for Alliance High Elves since there's 100x more of em than the single Goblin.

It's sarcasm.

High elves are a minority of a minority. They are a dying minority at that.

That doesn't matter, even if they were to fuck like rabbits and fill the world with their spawn it wouldn't change the fact that they are too similar, nearly identical, with belfs which is the issue here, even if you try to convince everyone it's not an issue.

[FlubberPuddy]

It's sarcasm.

High elves are a minority of a minority. They are a dying minority at that.

That doesn't matter, even if they were to fuck like rabbits and fill the world with their spawn it wouldn't change the fact that they are too similar, nearly identical, with belfs which is the issue here, even if you try to convince everyone it's not an issue.

It's stupid sarcasm. That's what I was pointing out.

For your last part: it's good then that convincing the intentionally obtuse posts by some peeps here isn't a requirement to getting High Elves playable and that Blizzard, per Afrasiabi, wants the conversation to continue.

I'm pretty sure after BfA they will become a likely candidate once Blizzard looks to add 3.0 Elves to the Alliance.

[AngerFork]

I think that conversation, despite Talbot being actually Prince Valanar in disguise, is a 'micro-cosmos' of how the common human peasants and farmers viewed the draenei, anything unusual. Superstition and prejudices being rife among the "lower human casts" is not uncommon in fantasy.

Evidence of this, too, is how the humans killed the Forsaken messengers that came to Stormwind, from way back before Sylvanas joined the Horde and was still seeking allies. She sent envoys to Stormwind to ask for help, but the guards killed the undead.

It's true, the Alliance has had (and continues to have) a bit of a unfortunate history of killing and mistrusting anything that isn't human or have human-like looks. While they have gotten better about this (and I suspect will continue to improve under Anduin), it's hard not to wonder how many fewer wars we might have had between the Azeroth races if the Alliance extended a hand of friendship rather than the blade of a sword more often in the past.

But again, that particular case is on a micro level. Common farmers and peasants. Distrust always happens on the micro level. The Void Elves also have that same sort of distrust on the micro level for sure, as shown when you take a Void Elf into the Stormwind Cathedral. The catch here is the macro level. Anduin trusts Alleria, but he doesn't necessarily trust the Void. He welcomes them as long as they continue to adhere to Alleria's teachings. Not exactly a sign of trust on the highest level, but an acceptance that against Sylvanas, extreme measures must sometimes be taken.

I understand the sentiment, but here's my take: Baine, Liadrin and Eitrigg have no connection to the races they're recruiting other than what could be described as "brother-in-arms" relationships. Turalyon is not a draenei, despite being lightforged, and since he is human I suppose it makes sense for him to be the liaison. Now, in my mind, the reason why Alleria is more like Moira than like the others is because Alleria is intrinsically connected to the void elves by being their savior, and their mentor in controlling the void influence.

I agree with that, but here's where I think the catch comes in with Alleria. The void has changed her much like it has the void elves, but the change in the Void Elves themselves is something far harsher. Alleria still continues to have her High Elf form and can control when she shifts into her void form. Her voice is also largely the same as it was. The Void Elves themselves however really do not at this point. Their skin is permanently changed into this blue hue so far as we can tell, their shifting in and out of their void forms (Entropic Embrace) seems to happen outside of their control, and their voices have changed as a part of their transformation. The true telling tale as to whether she's more like Moira than Turalyon I feel is something we don't know yet, whether the child of two Void Elves would be a Void Elf or a High Elf. Until we know this for sure, the best we can currently determine is how close she is to them in how her shift to the void has changed her, and whether the Void Elves would look at her more as their leader or as a hero who is teaching them how to control the Void while Umbric leads them as a faction.

This might actually be a good way for Blizz to write the High Elf aesthetic into the Void Elves, now that I think about it. Allow them to start learning the secrets of the void from the Void Elves in a scenario similar to the Night Warrior one with the reward being a couple of High Elf skins with similar customization. Give them only light vocal changes from the Blood Elves currently in game, and adjust the tag to say High Elf when that tone is chosen. As they would be learning the void and would not have mastered it, they likely still wouldn't have nearly the same control as Alleria, but they would not have gone through the horrific ordeal that Umbric and his Void Elves did. At this point, you would have given High Elves a place to be playable, you would have furthered their story and the story of the Silver Covenant, you'd almost certainly have more interactions between Alleria and Veressa, and you almost certainly would have recovered some of that trust back. You'd also have actual High Elves, not just a color to appease people. All I see that would be missing would be High Elf Paladins which might be fun as Voidadins, but it's a small loss IMO for the trade off of High Elves being playable in game.

[Evilfish]

It's stupid sarcasm. That's what I was pointing out.

For your last part: it's good then that convincing the intentionally obtuse posts by some peeps here isn't a requirement to getting High Elves playable and that Blizzard, per Afrasiabi, wants the conversation to continue.

I'm pretty sure after BfA they will become a likely candidate once Blizzard looks to add 3.0 Elves to the Alliance.

Right.

Intentionally obtuse? No, I think not. It's the Helfer bullshit posting that wants to make people sound like they are being obtuse, trolling or just fucking evil. But much like Helfs themselves and pretty much all your bullshit here, wanting something does not make it a reality.

And yeah, I suppose if you were mailing me money each month I'd love it if you kept talking and paying.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure that the game has had enough elves, much less a copy of Befls, but hey, you keep paying that sub, the Helfs are just around the corner like they have been since TBC, right?

[Aldo Hawk]

And they are still the most played Allied Race.
It's an elf fantasy.
On the Alliance.

And hey, while an asspull, there was *at least* more thought put into them than "ehh... color their eyes blue and done. Now give me $15 for a Faction change"

And there are High Elves learning the void on Telogrus Rift.

And being the most played means?... Oh of course, that people like elves, what else? Ohm... Are you trying to refer that they sucessfully replaced HE? Hah, keep dreaming, this thread demonstrates the contrary.

Night elves are an elf fantasy on the alliance too, and that didn't stopped HE from being requested.

VE aren't just an asspull, they are purple colored elves that are infused with the void and are all blood elves, because no, HE learning void magic in Telogrus doesn't mean they are becoming VE. In fact, there are no proof of any elf becoming a VE.

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Maybe it's time to petition Blizzard to officially make Wrathion an Alliance character so shapeshifting black dragons can become neutral

Ugh... this gives me creeps xd