Poll: Old Talents v. New Talents

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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    I don't know why you randomly assume I hate raw stats, I never mentioned them anywhere. I just think they're a different aspect of character customization and progression. Like D2 lets you build your stats, that's great. An even better raw stats system was in oldschool Ragnarok Online, with plateaus giving bonuses and there was increased cost as the stats got higher, planning a good build was pretty intricate and very satisfying to complete. I just think talents should be more focused on abilities and active stuff, less "run in the background and forget about it" kinda thing like what raw stats are when it comes to gameplay.

    I would be totally down for WoW to have raw stats customization. Actually while writing that I thought it would be cool to have every level where we don't get a skill point to get a stats point instead and let player control a bit of that instead of entirely relying on gear.
    Thats cool so we actually agree on something

    Im out of ideas to talk about.

  2. #222
    The new talent system is better - but boring still.

    The old talent system only had one cookie-cutter build...
    Atleast the new system have the choice between AOE and single target spells etc.

    Would be cool to see a remake of the old system though, I liked putting in a talent and going to the trainer each level.. Now only each 15th level matter.

  3. #223
    The one thing I hated about the old talent specs were half specs. Good riddance.

  4. #224
    they should mix the new talents with the old, basically having two talent tree

  5. #225
    Stood in the Fire mostvp71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pepe The Frog View Post
    they should mix the new talents with the old, basically having two talent tree
    Pretty much what Legion’s Artifact was lol., the only thing they were missing in Legion was the leveling abilities/passives advancement and returning abilities/passives that were pruned. They should have made artifact traits gained from leveling/abilities in BfA rather than just gutting them all.

    Honor talents and regular talents should not be separated and honor talents def should not be limited to 3 slots and a trinket choice.
    Last edited by mostvp71; 2019-01-16 at 08:42 PM.

  6. #226
    I'm not so much concerned by the exact method of how you select talents/legendaries/azerite traits/tier bonuses...

    What matters to me is that there are actual choices, and that there isn't a narrowly defined "end game".
    Right now you've got Raids, M+, and PvP, which means you theoretically could find 3 cookie cutter builds perfectly suited to these 3 activities.
    There should be different forms of challenging content where you have to pick talents or use azerite traits you would never ordinarily use. These are things we currently call "niche" but what if these activities were brought to the forefront. Mage Tower is a good example of this, but I'd like them to think more outside the box than that.

  7. #227
    Immortal Pua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pppbroom View Post
    With old talent system you would go one top build and that's it.
    Except, that's fundamentally untrue.

    And here's why.

    Because only an extremely small percentage of players actually read online guides.

    You know what's best about that?

    It was the designers that told us that.

    They were laughably contradictory when they got rid of the old talent system. We were told it was because it was heavily guided, and thus less of a choice for players, but then told us that hardly any players actually read the guides. They effectively spat out their own argument, which largely told us the truth of the talent tree loss; that it's much easier to make bland, crappy choices that nobody really cares about.

  8. #228
    The main advantage to the old system was with leveling.

    They should just do a hybrid of the two. They can have tiers of talents that you can spend points in, then have the milestone rows allow you to pick one of 3 talents like in the new system.

    Best of both worlds.

    They could even have it tied to an artifact system where you can unlock more talent points for the filler rows.

  9. #229
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Yeah, the choice of having the wrong or the right setup maybe.
    Currently you need to spec for the situation unlike befor when you more or less just had one cookie cutter spec that did it all.
    Warlocks, as an example, in Vanilla (1.12) had a large variety of specs that excelled in different circumstances and had different gear requirements. Two of those specs were extremely raid viable, two were very strong PVP specs with vastly different playstyles, and there were a number of strong farming specs.

    So no, it really wasn't about right/wrong.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    It's not a matter of opinion. The talents are not part of the system, that's factually how it is. Talents can be designed entirely seperately. You can take the old talent trees and replace every single talent with anything else you imagine, that's because the talents and the system are 2 different things.
    Virtually none of this makes sense. Talents are part of the talent system. Abilities and talents went hand in hand. Yes there were abilities that functioned separately but talents and abilities were symbiotic.

    I said that I played around with every talent, that obviously means I'm creative and tried them and know of every build you're speaking of. So why are you saying I,m not creative? Is it because you didn't understand what I said or because you're just looking for an strawman argument on the internet?
    Clearly you didn't play around with them that much if you were under the impression they were all inferior to the "optimal" choice declared by ElitistJerks or the equivalent. So it's not a strawman.

    Creativity of a spec is only a word used by people who think they're original for not having the most popular build.
    Not really.

    But the creative build they have was already used by someone else who just stopped using it for the sake of efficiency. Creativity is about creating something, AKA something new. With the extremely limited talent options it's pretty hard ot be creative, now or before, the options were very limited.
    Not true either. There were several times in the history of WoW where there was a build declared "optimal" and then later on someone theorycrafted and tested out a different build and it was proven to be better.

    I played some weird ass builds with points in every pages. It was fun and got shit done, but in the end the choice isn't really "what you want to play" but "how efficient do you want to be". Which in the end is not really creative, creativity is limited by the ressources you are given, and let's be real, there wasn't much to work with in the first place.
    Again, there was plenty to work with. You could make a plethora of builds with the old system and you would have a unique playstyle between them. The same cannot be said for the current system. In the end the choice is what do you want to do and how do you want to do it. Efficiency is a subjective term because there's no golden standard of what a player wants to do. You ignoring this is very disingenuous.

  11. #231
    Stood in the Fire mostvp71's Avatar
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    Couldnt have said it better myself.

  12. #232
    We do not need the old talent trees because you did not have choice. Tanks used Toweliess tank builds or you did not tank for your guild. FOTM builds were very common. They need to either bring back talent trees adding new abilities as you hit max level or put active abilities onto whatever the expansion gimmick is this time around.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by FanaticDreamer View Post
    Virtually none of this makes sense. Talents are part of the talent system. Abilities and talents went hand in hand. Yes there were abilities that functioned separately but talents and abilities were symbiotic.
    There's some misunderstanding here. I never said abilities and talents were unrelated. I said talents and the system are not related. You could pick the old talents and put them in the current system, or in a completely different one. The SYSTEM is how you get the choose where to put points in what you actually unlocked based on your level and the requirements, it's also what dictates the concept of spec pages and the quote of points you put in your main spec before putting points somewhere else, etc. The talents are the designs of upgradees you get for your class that you get to put points in, they can be moved around anywhere in the system or even be put in another system because it's absolutely independant from one another.

    Clearly you didn't play around with them that much if you were under the impression they were all inferior to the "optimal" choice declared by ElitistJerks or the equivalent. So it's not a strawman.
    Or you're not analytic enough to realize there were inferior specs and an optimal spec. BTW I was talking about long before ElitistJerks and any other sites with guides and build suggestion existed. These sites simply made public what people had already found out. Maybe you didn't realize this and kept believing all builds were equal, sorry but no, they were not equal at all. There was always a best build for every situation, just like there is today and just like there is in every game that lets you build your character. D2 was the same.

    Not true either. There were several times in the history of WoW where there was a build declared "optimal" and then later on someone theorycrafted and tested out a different build and it was proven to be better.
    You say my comment was not true but then you go on about something else entirely. I was talking about the random "creative" builds people made that were not as efficient as the most efficient build. I didn't mention anything about people who managed to find sometign new that works, that mostly comes with the fact that people didn't know much about the game back then, doesn't have much to do with the talent system at all, objectively.

    Again, there was plenty to work with. You could make a plethora of builds with the old system and you would have a unique playstyle between them. The same cannot be said for the current system. In the end the choice is what do you want to do and how do you want to do it. Efficiency is a subjective term because there's no golden standard of what a player wants to do. You ignoring this is very disingenuous.
    You know exactly what efficiency means. Just saying it was possible to spec differently for a different activity is saying "the current system works better because we can respec anywhere for free". Everybody knows you can spec differently for different stuff, that only means there's always a more efficient spec, which means I was right. BTW, that's what people do today, you can pick different build for single target, aoe, raid, dungeons, questing, farmingé Okay sure you're not gonna change EVERYTHING, but guess what, neither did you back then anyway! You moved around a few points and that's it, there was still the obvious choie, don't come to me with fucking bullshit saying there was some extra exotic stuff you could do that made your warrior a fucking wizard. Your warrior was still melee'ing with mostly the same abilities, frost mage still only did frostbolts and nothing else, the earth still spun around the same way, calm your tits.

  14. #234
    I prefer Classic's talent system. It's not perfect, and there are some changes I'd make if I could. But overall I find it much more interesting than modern WoW's talents.

  15. #235

    Thumbs down

    They were a terrible mess in which you had to put points into filler vaporware so that you could advance to the next tier.

    I haven't missed them in the slightest, and I hope they burn in classic hell :P

    No point system should ever, ever, mix abilities with passives behind a spending limit and a tiered setup, especially with respec discouraging systems. That's touching every pillar of bad design. Unless you can have everything in the end, since it would be that way just for giggles and make believe (although a pain in the neck nonetheless).
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

  16. #236
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Not sure why you highlight cata, MoP talent trees and onwards were absolutely just as cookie cutter as what came before, the only difference being that classes had to sacrifice half their spellbooks over time in the name of the new system
    Because Cata wasthe last time these this talent system was used. Thus anything beyond that was irrelevant to my point.

  17. #237
    I wouldn't mind the old system if it was filled with more interesting choices. But putting a point into +1% hit chance feels pretty lame. So I guess my response is a hybrid system. Something that feels as impactful as the current talents but has the customization of the original tree

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Swalload View Post
    There's some misunderstanding here. I never said abilities and talents were unrelated. I said talents and the system are not related. You could pick the old talents and put them in the current system, or in a completely different one. The SYSTEM is how you get the choose where to put points in what you actually unlocked based on your level and the requirements, it's also what dictates the concept of spec pages and the quote of points you put in your main spec before putting points somewhere else, etc. The talents are the designs of upgradees you get for your class that you get to put points in, they can be moved around anywhere in the system or even be put in another system because it's absolutely independant from one another.
    Okay but I don't understand why this is relevant to the argument. The system is the system and the talents are talents.


    Or you're not analytic enough to realize there were inferior specs and an optimal spec. BTW I was talking about long before ElitistJerks and any other sites with guides and build suggestion existed. These sites simply made public what people had already found out. Maybe you didn't realize this and kept believing all builds were equal, sorry but no, they were not equal at all. There was always a best build for every situation, just like there is today and just like there is in every game that lets you build your character. D2 was the same.
    Define "best build" and define "optimal spec" please. When you realize that you cannot, then you'll understand the issue.

    You say my comment was not true but then you go on about something else entirely. I was talking about the random "creative" builds people made that were not as efficient as the most efficient build. I didn't mention anything about people who managed to find sometign new that works, that mostly comes with the fact that people didn't know much about the game back then, doesn't have much to do with the talent system at all, objectively.
    ...random creative builds in your own definition are things that deviate from the tried and true popular strong build. So therefore if someone is messing around with a creative build and it happens to be stronger than the tried and true build. That's the point.


    You know exactly what efficiency means.
    No I don't. My definition may differ from yours.

    Just saying it was possible to spec differently for a different activity is saying "the current system works better because we can respec anywhere for free". Everybody knows you can spec differently for different stuff, that only means there's always a more efficient spec, which means I was right. BTW, that's what people do today, you can pick different build for single target, aoe, raid, dungeons, questing, farmingé Okay sure you're not gonna change EVERYTHING, but guess what, neither did you back then anyway! You moved around a few points and that's it, there was still the obvious choie, don't come to me with fucking bullshit saying there was some extra exotic stuff you could do that made your warrior a fucking wizard. Your warrior was still melee'ing with mostly the same abilities, frost mage still only did frostbolts and nothing else, the earth still spun around the same way, calm your tits.
    Except the choices today are hollow and they don't differ the specs or the same spec very much at all to be significant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Meat Rubbing Specialist View Post
    Because Cata wasthe last time these this talent system was used. Thus anything beyond that was irrelevant to my point.
    And I wouldn't even consider the Cata tree relevant because that's where they started the decline of the talent system and paved the way for the garbage we have now.

  19. #239
    dogwhistle thread for baddies, nothing to see really

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Thoughts? There was no choice and the new system is better.
    There's no choice in the new system either.
    Scheduled weekly maintenance caught me by surprise.

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