Retri paladin off healing is fucking stupid

[Kralljin]

No such thing anymore. Casters are shit at pvp, can't kite anything, and the only ranged spec that can kite, BM hunter, does too low damage and will eventually lose a 1v1 fight of attrition with a ret because the ret keeps healing, bubbling and using ranged attacks and ponies, while the hunter's HP only goes one way: down.

I laugh at every DK and Ret that tries to solo me as Elemental Shaman.

They are a nuisance at best if they start to use their defensives, but in particular Ret just have no hope of killing me because they cannot catch me while i'm in GW.

Honestly, Ret selfhealing sucks if you can purge Selfless healer, which almost any ranged Class can besides Hunter / Warlock (both can use a pet to purge however) and Balance.

[Swalload]

thats just not true(well its true currently, but wasnt always true)

WoW PVP used to be extremely fun and relatively balanced as well.. its just that pointing out one single thing that you PERSONALLY THINK is op is just stupid..

WoW pvp now isnt fun because they basically pruned all the fun from the game, but its actually fairly balanced.. its just not balanced around 1v1, and definitely not balanced around specific 1v1 situations..

It's so balanced that the healing of way of the crane had to be cut in half. No, the balance was always off, the classes with CC do the same dmg if not more than the classes with way less CC, it makes no sense. The value of everything is completely off. A DH who gets to jump around and spam CC does more dmg than a ret pally who gets kited all day long and has less CC. Not even gonna mention that DH has better defensives than ret pally. BTW I don't main either of those class, this does not come from a biased perspective of "oh noes other classes are better than mine". I just know when I play against a DH in arena it's always much harder than against a ret pally in every situations. That's called imbalanced, if this kind of situation exists it means the game is not balanced.

[Craaazyyy]

It's so balanced that the healing of way of the crane had to be cut in half. No, the balance was always off, the classes with CC do the same dmg if not more than the classes with way less CC, it makes no sense. The value of everything is completely off. A DH who gets to jump around and spam CC does more dmg than a ret pally who gets kited all day long and has less CC. Not even gonna mention that DH has better defensives than ret pally. BTW I don't main either of those class, this does not come from a biased perspective of "oh noes other classes are better than mine". I just know when I play against a DH in arena it's always much harder than against a ret pally in every situations. That's called imbalanced, if this kind of situation exists it means the game is not balanced.

i said it was fairly balanced, but you telling me that cuz its not completely balanced then its fucking imbalanced as fuck

[Swalload]

Not true. You just have to play the right thing.

There are some classes and specs that are very likely to always be...the right thing. Rogue for example. Rogues are always OP in at least one of their specs, and when they're not, it's only temporary before Blizzard buffs them. This is obviously for casual pvp like 1v1, wpvp and random bgs.

There are two types of PVP in WoW: Unrated and Rated.
Unrated: duels, wpvp, random bgs.
Rated: arena and rbgs.

Classes and specs like arms/fury warrior, shadow priest, elemental shaman, balance druid, warlock, are historically BAD at unrated PVP, while at the same time being good and very good for rated PVP.

Likewise there are classes and specs like rogue, ret paladin, ww monk, feral druid, hunter, that are are historically GOOD at unrated pvp, while at the same time not really shining in rated PVP.

And then there are the wild cards: classes and specs that seem to ride a rollercoaster between op-ness and absolute dogshit. I would put here enhancement shaman, dk and mage. You never know when and at what are these guys good, before they get nerfed or buffed and then nerfed or buffed again, as Blizzard doesn't have any idea what to do with these guys.

The main issue arises when someone playing a class/spec from one category wants to excel at the other category or at both, and there is no such thing, as Blizzard is incapable of balancing both pve and pvp at the same time. They can't even balance Overwatch which is a 100% pvp game, let alone a primarily pve game like WoW.

Sorry but you're way off in many points here. First of all, playing the right thing does not fix the problem. That's like closing your eyes and pretending shit is alright. Fun is something everybody should get in the game regardless of their class choice, being required to switch to the FOTM just ot have fun is proof that the game's balane is bullshit.

Second point, you put all unrated pvp together and say there's a bunch of class that are just bad at all of it. Which makes no sense between there are giant differences between duels, wpvp and random BGs. Warlocks have always been extremely good at random BGs but they suck ass in world pvp mostly because they have no gates or anything prepared, they have the shitty voidwalker out to tank shit while questing, etc.
Even in rated PvP, arenas and RGBs have very different metas allowing different classes to shine, for example tanks in RBGs.

And then you have classes like rogues, who are just straight up good at all of it, never sucked for 15 years, always ridiculous, never fixed. Once again proof that the balance is off, this should simply not happen.

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i said it was fairly balanced, but you telling me that cuz its not completely balanced then its fucking imbalanced as fuck

Well I don't think it's anywhere close to balanced really. I mean healers are worth at least 2 dps if not more, blizzard have to put dampening at the start of the match because the classes are so unbalanced. If the game was balanced it would be possible to play triple dps against 2dps+heals in 3v3 and have 50% chance of winning, is it the case right now? Absolutely not, that means the game is absolutely not balanced.

[Craaazyyy]

Well I don't think it's anywhere close to balanced really. I mean healers are worth at least 2 dps if not more, blizzard have to put dampening at the start of the match because the classes are so unbalanced. If the game was balanced it would be possible to play triple dps against 2dps+heals in 3v3 and have 50% chance of winning, is it the case right now? Absolutely not, that means the game is absolutely not balanced.

dampening being in the game isnt about balance, its about blizzard design philosophy.

and you said that the balance was always off yet back in the days dampening wasnt a thing and triple dps comps were a thing

obviously the game isnt in a great state when it comes to PVP these days.. and its been like that pretty much for half a decade now.. or more

but the main problem isnt balance

also having 50% chance to win in a game like WoW with so many classes and abilities etc. is impossible.. so to have perfect balance is impossible, no game is perfectly balanced, even the games that are known for being balanced

[siskokid21]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

The heal in question is called Word of glory and it has a major downside, in that by using it you lose out on damage. It also only has 2 charges on a 1minute recharge time, so you can easily outdamage it in arenas. Since you mention lay on hands, i assume your not talking about rated pvp, in which case i have to alert you that this game is terribly unbalanced as far as 1v1 goes. Especially as a warrior, as you tend to be very reliant on your healers, even in a 2v2 scenario, due to things such as dispelling roots and properly CCing targets at the correct time. Also, mortal strike debuff is busted AF in 2v2 due to how dampening works.

[Swalload]

dampening being in the game isnt about balance, its about blizzard design philosophy.

and you said that the balance was always off yet back in the days dampening wasnt a thing and triple dps comps were a thing

obviously the game isnt in a great state when it comes to PVP these days.. and its been like that pretty much for half a decade now.. or more

but the main problem isnt balance

also having 50% chance to win in a game like WoW with so many classes and abilities etc. is impossible.. so to have perfect balance is impossible, no game is perfectly balanced, even the games that are known for being balanced

I understand the concept of dampening after a while, it solves the problem of games lasting too long, which is fine. But the fact that 2v2 games start with 20% dampening is not for that prupose, it's because healers are insanely OP. A healer is one character, it should be worth 1 character. That means that if 1 dps is hitting the healer and the healer heals himself, he should cover the dmg he receives, and if there's 2 dps on him and he heals (we're talking about no CC or pillar hugging or interrupts here) he should cover only half the dmg he revieves and inevitably die in the same amount of time it would take for only 1 dps to kill him without healing. Right now it's possible to survive 3 fucking dps on you for a pretty long time and if there's no interrupt I wouldn't be surprised if something wack like a monk could live through 5 dps until he goes OOM. Which is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

[Craaazyyy]

I understand the concept of dampening after a while, it solves the problem of games lasting too long, which is fine. But the fact that 2v2 games start with 20% dampening is not for that prupose, it's because healers are insanely OP. A healer is one character, it should be worth 1 character. That means that if 1 dps is hitting the healer and the healer heals himself, he should cover the dmg he receives, and if there's 2 dps on him and he heals (we're talking about no CC or pillar hugging or interrupts here) he should cover only half the dmg he revieves and inevitably die in the same amount of time it would take for only 1 dps to kill him without healing. Right now it's possible to survive 3 fucking dps on you for a pretty long time and if there's no interrupt I wouldn't be surprised if something wack like a monk could live through 5 dps until he goes OOM. Which is ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination.

i mean dampening concept is dumb, because you dont need to have dampening to solve the problem of games lasting too long, games still lasted a long time even with dapmening.. while in wrath, for example, games were mostly fast without it

but anyways healers are "made op" not because of fucked up balance, but because of design philosophy.. and its not that healers are busted, its more because dps dont do that much damage(at least not as much as they used to do in Wrath for example)

back in the days healers used to heal for a lot(like you used to top people with 1 cast as some healers) and that is how it should be, but at the same time damage was also super high.. so healers were actually running out of mana quicker

basically the game was completely different design wise.. but the problem is that within current game with how many abilities were lost they basically cant make damage as high as it used to be, because people would be just flopping to damage and being unable to do anything because they dont have the tools to deal with it, tools they used to have back in the days.. so their "solution" to that is reducing damage, reducing healing, reducing mana cost of spells across the board for healers and adding dampening so games wouldnt last forever

so basically the game is fucked design wise, balance being shit is just a byproduct of that

essentially them thinking that pruning will actually lead to having easier time balancing actually didnt fucking work.. at least not in pvp

but well pruning didnt work in general, because its fucking dumb

[Swalload]

i mean dampening concept is dumb, because you dont need to have dampening to solve the problem of games lasting too long, games still lasted a long time even with dapmening.. while in wrath, for example, games were mostly fast without it

but anyways healers are "made op" not because of fucked up balance, but because of design philosophy.. and its not that healers are busted, its more because dps dont do that much damage(at least not as much as they used to do in Wrath for example)

back in the days healers used to heal for a lot(like you used to top people with 1 cast as some healers) and that is how it should be, but at the same time damage was also super high.. so healers were actually running out of mana quicker

basically the game was completely different design wise.. but the problem is that within current game with how many abilities were lost they basically cant make damage as high as it used to be, because people would be just flopping to damage and being unable to do anything because they dont have the tools to deal with it, tools they used to have back in the days.. so their "solution" to that is reducing damage, reducing healing, reducing mana cost of spells across the board for healers and adding dampening so games wouldnt last forever

so basically the game is fucked design wise, balance being shit is just a byproduct of that

essentially them thinking that pruning will actually lead to having easier time balancing actually didnt fucking work.. at least not in pvp

but well pruning didnt work in general, because its fucking dumb

Balance can be adapted to any kind of design philosophy or play style. The current style is less spiky dmg than there was in wrath. Is it better or not, that's to each their own, some people prefer spiky dmg and healing, some prefer when it's more constant dmg and slower heal to full etc. I don't have anything against that, I'm just tired of seeing the classes with insane amount of CC and mobility also doing more dmg when they objectively should have the lowest dmg of the entire game.

[Faesroll]

git fucking gud

[Craaazyyy]

Balance can be adapted to any kind of design philosophy or play style. The current style is less spiky dmg than there was in wrath. Is it better or not, that's to each their own, some people prefer spiky dmg and healing, some prefer when it's more constant dmg and slower heal to full etc. I don't have anything against that, I'm just tired of seeing the classes with insane amount of CC and mobility also doing more dmg when they objectively should have the lowest dmg of the entire game.

again if you would've kept talking about actual balancing issues then it'd be fine.. but you were talking about entirely different thing

i just said that healers "being op" have nothing to do with balance.. if it wasnt like that with the current toolkits of most classes people would be just dying in a single stormbolt

obviously retarded design of Demon Hunters(LMAO) etc. is a different thing

[Sencha]

All healing from non-healing specs should be removed.

[Craaazyyy]

All healing from non-healing specs should be removed.

yeah, how about no?

[Swalload]

again if you would've kept talking about actual balancing issues then it'd be fine.. but you were talking about entirely different thing

i just said that healers "being op" have nothing to do with balance.. if it wasnt like that with the current toolkits of most classes people would be just dying in a single stormbolt

obviously retarded design of Demon Hunters(LMAO) etc. is a different thing

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The performances of classes is what determines balance. If something is OP, healer or not, it means it's not balanced. Replacing your healer for a DPS in 3v3 should cover the same amount of numbers. PvP is just a numbers race, the team achieving the best numbers wins but when one class (healer) can negate more than 1 person's worth of number (1 dps) then it makes no balancing sense. Picking a dps or a healer should not be a no brainer, it should be a decision based on what you want to do and not just "well, that's how blizzard wants it to be". Blizzard is purposefully unbalancing the game. Yes it's "by design" but the only thing that can make a game balanced or unbalanced is design. The design is at fault for the balancing issues, all of them.

[Craaazyyy]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The performances of classes is what determines balance. If something is OP, healer or not, it means it's not balanced. Replacing your healer for a DPS in 3v3 should cover the same amount of numbers. PvP is just a numbers race, the team achieving the best numbers wins but when one class (healer) can negate more than 1 person's worth of number (1 dps) then it makes no balancing sense. Picking a dps or a healer should not be a no brainer, it should be a decision based on what you want to do and not just "well, that's how blizzard wants it to be". Blizzard is purposefully unbalancing the game. Yes it's "by design" but the only thing that can make a game balanced or unbalanced is design. The design is at fault for the balancing issues, all of them.

you legit dont understand that the healers arent op.. they just made that way to account for the fact that the game has changed.. or you think that killing people in a 3 second stun without them even having a chance to survive would be balanced?

so yeah, they're balanced within the current game design.. making them less powerful would make the game even more unbalanced

also by design in 3v3 the game is meant to be played with a healer.. by design

its all design problems.. and blizzard are balancing the game(well trying to) because of set design philosophy

[Swalload]

you legit dont understand that the healers arent op.. they just made that way to account for the fact that the game has changed.. or you think that killing people in a 3 second stun without them even having a chance to survive would be balanced?

so yeah, they're balanced within the current game design.. making them less powerful would make the game even more unbalanced

also by design in 3v3 the game is meant to be played with a healer.. by design

So the game design is to not be balanced? While it's true, it doesn't mean it's balanced. Balanced means everything has the same value, which is not the case now.

What you're telling me is that if you want a real balance with 2 rocks on it to have 1 side overthe other is considered "balanced" because that was your design. No, it only means that you design itself is not balanced.

The design is not an excuse to justify imbalances in the game, the design is what is causing the imbalance to exist. The game needs a better design that doesn't give too much value to specific classes or roles. Everything needs to have the same value so that anything you put on either side of the balance doesn't make one side higher than the other.

[Craaazyyy]

So the game design is to not be balanced? While it's true, it doesn't mean it's balanced. Balanced means everything has the same value, which is not the case now.

What you're telling me is that if you want a real balance with 2 rocks on it to have 1 side overthe other is considered "balanced" because that was your design. No, it only means that you design itself is not balanced.

The design is not an excuse to justify imbalances in the game, the design is what is causing the imbalance to exist. The game needs a better design that doesn't give too much value to specific classes or roles. Everything needs to have the same value so that anything you put on either side of the balance doesn't make one side higher than the other.

well who defines value?

im not telling you anything, because seems like you think that i think that balance is amazing, its not.. but its also will never be

but at the same time you keep telling me that design philosophy somehow fucks balance(it does, but not to an extent you think).. i explained why healers are the way they are.. because if they werent the game wouldnt become more balanced, it would become less balanced

also yeah, you can say that game design is making the game less balanced, so they have to take it into account and make some changes so it would be more or less balanced.. but when they were making these changes to the game(im talking about pruning, not healer design), they werent thinking about pvp balance at all

[Swalload]

well who defines value?

Devs. They're the ones making changes to the game. Each changes affect values of classes, abilities, toolkits, therefore balance. All of that needs to be carefully observed, controlled, and most importantly understood.

[Craaazyyy]

Devs. They're the ones making changes to the game. Each changes affect values of classes, abilities, toolkits, therefore balance. All of that needs to be carefully observed, controlled, and most importantly understood.

yeah, but what if they think that roles in pvp bring the same value? what if they think that dps and healers are both equally valuable?

also yeah, you can say that game design is making the game less balanced, so they have to take it into account and make some changes so it would be more or less balanced.. but when they were making these changes to the game(im talking about pruning, not healer design), they werent thinking about pvp balance at all

also there you think that if the game isnt completely balanced(btw it never will be) then its pretty much imbalanced to the point that it sucks..

i personally believe that balance, while super important, isnt the reason why pvp in the current game suck balls.. in fact there were times when actually dampening wasnt a thing, healers werent op(well i dont think they're truly op now, but by your definition they are), triple dps was also a thing, but the game wasnt balanced at all.. but it was actually super fucking fun to play.. even if you played classes that werent all that good

[Schattenlied]

I don't care, if you can do an instant cast while I used sharpen blade (he didn't use lay on hands) and still regain half your health, something is very wrong if you are not a healing spec.
I fucking hate paladins so much. How do I counter them as a warrior (arms)?

You're clearly over-exaggerating, none of their spells heal for anywhere near that much... If what you were saying is true (50% heal from an instant cast heal while they have a -50% healing debuff) then Paladins would be running around tossing instant cast 100% health heals the rest of the time, which isn't remotely true.

Flash of Light only heals for ~12% of the Paladin's health, WoG only heals for 20% (in PvP), and that's before healing debuffs like Sharpen Blade are accounted for... So either they chugged a health pot/used a healstone at the same time, or they did use Lay on Hands.

Either way, you're not being truthful here, your account of what happened is mathematically impossible.