[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Triks]

Everyone is important in the EU. I would quite probably have the same attitude if Luxembourg left. Or.. heck, Greece. I demonstrably did have the same attitude and was vehemently opposing a possible Grexit scenario, much willing to defend and literally pay for Greece to stay in the Union with my own taxmoney.

The whole "we're not important" or "we're the Empire" spiel, both of them, are false and need to stop. Nobody is judging the nation by... the profit they bring us. Or whatever they're "worth" to us. So, arrogance or meekness... neither are warranted nor asked for. What we're asking for is people to simply stop judging so much, see the advantages of being in a team, see errors in the system and help fix them. Instead of the constant us vs. them stuff.

I know, you mean well and all, but focus on other things and don't ride the humility train when nobody asked you to. Although, I admit, personally I think it's a refreshing contrast to Dribs' "the EU will bow down to us, because Empire" number... haha

Grexit would have crashed the EU because Greece is a Eurozone country. Like the banks in 2008, Greece needed to be saved to prevent further damage.

I agree on one thing - the EU is incredible as a tool for common negotiation.Besides, it keeps Russia from being Russia. What I do think, however, is that the EU should start doing more to help its deprived regions and I don't mean just by Eurofunds. A common job site or something like this would be a good start.

[Acidbaron]

So long this shitshow doesn't get carried over and into the EU elections, really don't need retards from the UKIP being paid for another term while they fuck up their own nation and major EU benefits and pay checks.

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Grexit would have crashed the EU because Greece is a Eurozone country. Like the banks in 2008, Greece needed to be saved to prevent further damage.

I agree on one thing - the EU is incredible as a tool for common negotiation.Besides, it keeps Russia from being Russia. What I do think, however, is that the EU should start doing more to help its deprived regions and I don't mean just by Eurofunds. A common job site or something like this would be a good start.

Eurobonds were being talked about instead of national bonds to aid weaker nations in loans. What do you mean with a common job site?

Since a lot of effort just recently went into social dumping as you can't be serious about equalizing worker pay EU wide while the cost of living varies significantly just from regions within each nation not even to mention nation to nation.

[Slant]

Grexit would have crashed the EU because Greece is a Eurozone country. Like the banks in 2008, Greece needed to be saved to prevent further damage.

I agree on one thing - the EU is incredible as a tool for common negotiation.Besides, it keeps Russia from being Russia. What I do think, however, is that the EU should start doing more to help its deprived regions and I don't mean just by Eurofunds. A common job site or something like this would be a good start.

I don't think it would have crashed the EU itself. The Eurozone? Maybe, but not the EU. The reason is that the EU itself is more than just a way to make profit. The main purpose is and remains to keep the peace in the EU intact. The Eurozone and all the political games these days are just tools to achieve just that. The wealth it generates through trade? Just a bonus on top of its original mission.

I agree, though, that the EU needs to do more for the countries with problems. Alas, that is necessarily coupled with further integration and, ultimately, more transfer of sovereignity/authority to Brussels. You cannot expect the EU to "help" a country that has systemic problems without addressing those systemic problems. Greece is a wonderful example, because some people still maintain that the EU should've just thrown money at the problem without Greece changing its ways to address the problems. It would be one heck of a giant moneysink if that ever happened.

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So long this shitshow doesn't get carried over and into the EU elections, really don't need retards from the UKIP being paid for another term while they fuck up their own nation and major EU benefits and pay checks.

The best thing about Brexit? I won't have to see that stupid face of Farage in the EUP anymore. That alone almost makes Brexit worth it.

[Triks]

So long this shitshow doesn't get carried over and into the EU elections, really don't need retards from the UKIP being paid for another term while they fuck up their own nation and major EU benefits and pay checks.

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Eurobonds were being talked about instead of national bonds to aid weaker nations in loans. What do you mean with a common job site?

Since a lot of effort just recently went into social dumping as you can't be serious about equalizing worker pay EU wide while the cost of living varies significantly just from regions within each nation not even to mention nation to nation.

Eurobonds work for countries like Italy who have a functioning economy but not for Greece because it just compounds on the already existing problem - Greece was using Germany's credit rating and currency. Cheap credit won't fix the debt crisis that was worsen by austerity - actual economic growth will.

By a common job site, I mean a website, sponsored by the EU, to have companies advertise different positions in English for English speakers (this includes non-native speakers). The EU's labor market is very fluid - this is a major strength and should be viewed as such. Now, I am relatively well-paid and I have a decent life so it's neither here nor there for me but for some French guy in bum-fuck nowhere, this could be the opportunity of a life-time.

I don't mean equalizing pay, I mean better tools for social mobility like the one above.

[Acidbaron]

Eurobonds work for countries like Italy who have a functioning economy but not for Greece because it just compounds on the already existing problem - Greece was using Germany's credit rating and currency. Cheap credit won't fix the debt crisis that was worsen by austerity - actual economic growth will.

By a common job site, I mean a website, sponsored by the EU, to have companies advertise different positions in English for English speakers (this includes non-native speakers). The EU's labor market is very fluid - this is a major strength and should be viewed as such. Now, I am relatively well-paid and I have a decent life so it's neither here nor there for me but for some French guy in bum-fuck nowhere, this could be the opportunity of a life-time.

I don't mean equalizing pay, I mean better tools for social mobility like the one above.

And for economic growth you need to invest, i get that, but Greece specifically has made such a mess of it for so long and honestly the EU should have acted far more drastically on the very first loan. It's also the reason Portugal went in against the EU wishes of austerity and invested again but saw an increase and were also left alone they had a government for the people that knew what they were doing and had a clear goal that wasn't tied on hoping more money would come their way each time they screwed up.

Maybe, i think most people aren't really that set on moving elsewhere. Especially considering the cultural and language difference in the EU. Also i think we have companies doing that already, i'm not sure the EU would be effective at doing that and hosting that, wouldn't that mean the EU would become an unfair competitor in the work agency and recruitment market?

[Triks]

I don't think it would have crashed the EU itself. The Eurozone? Maybe, but not the EU. The reason is that the EU itself is more than just a way to make profit. The main purpose is and remains to keep the peace in the EU intact. The Eurozone and all the political games these days are just tools to achieve just that. The wealth it generates through trade? Just a bonus on top of its original mission.

I agree, though, that the EU needs to do more for the countries with problems. Alas, that is necessarily coupled with further integration and, ultimately, more transfer of sovereignity/authority to Brussels. You cannot expect the EU to "help" a country that has systemic problems without addressing those systemic problems. Greece is a wonderful example, because some people still maintain that the EU should've just thrown money at the problem without Greece changing its ways to address the problems. It would be one heck of a giant moneysink if that ever happened.

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The best thing about Brexit? I won't have to see that stupid face of Farage in the EUP anymore. That alone almost makes Brexit worth it.

The Eurozone going down gives businesses a major sign to exit the Eurozone countries before they start printing money to get out of the Greece-made recession. That would have ended the EU or at least stopped any further integration for a good 10 years.

There are many ways for the EU to help its citizens while bypassing the countries and just to name a few - direct subsidies for education, EU-funded re-training programs for the regions left behind, EU-funded skill courses in IT and MS Office, etc.

[JohnBrown1917]

So how long till the troubles retstart?

[Slant]

And so we have something to laugh about in all this mess...

https://www.der-postillon.com/2019/0...e-allianz.html



Translation by me.. :P

Because it's simpler: All nations except the UK exit from the EU and create a new alliance

Brussel, London (dpo) - Then we'll do it this way! Because Great Britain apparently hasn't been able to conclude its orderly exit for two years now, the other member states have decided to walk another, less complicated way: They want to do an EUxit.

And this is how it works: Right on time on the 29th of March 2019 all EU member states, except Great Britain, leave the EU and create a new alliance of nations. The EU would then consist of only Great Britain.
The other nations would then form the European Alliance (EA), which works exactly like the EU except for the name.
"This back and forth is laming our institutions and has to be ended," this drastic step is justified by Pesident of the EU-Commission and designated President of the EA-Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker. "And if this is the only way to make a clean cut then we'll do it." He duly promises the EA would put every effort into keeping good relations with the EU.
Should the British still wish to exit the EU as the sole member state, this would not meet with many difficulties anymore. They could simply negotiate very
agreeable exit conditions with themselves without fearing opposition from Brussels.

And this is the news from the UK (not-translated by me):

https://www.the-postillon.com/2017/0...moat.html#more

UK to dig huge moat along EU border

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The Eurozone going down gives businesses a major sign to exit the Eurozone countries before they start printing money to get out of the Greece-made recession. That would have ended the EU or at least stopped any further integration for a good 10 years.

There are many ways for the EU to help its citizens while bypassing the countries and just to name a few - direct subsidies for education, EU-funded re-training programs for the regions left behind, EU-funded skill courses in IT and MS Office, etc.

The EU isn't shitting gold. EU funds are not a magic solution for shitty national policies. That's what I'm saying. Throwing money at problems never ever worked long term. You need to fix the underlying causes first, then you can start throwing money at it to patch it up.

[Triks]

And for economic growth you need to invest, i get that, but Greece specifically has made such a mess of it for so long and honestly the EU should have acted far more drastically on the very first loan. It's also the reason Portugal went in against the EU wishes of austerity and invested again but saw an increase and were also left alone they had a government for the people that knew what they were doing and had a clear goal that wasn't tied on hoping more money would come their way each time they screwed up.

Maybe, i think most people aren't really that set on moving elsewhere. Especially considering the cultural and language difference in the EU. Also i think we have companies doing that already, i'm not sure the EU would be effective at doing that and hosting that, wouldn't that mean the EU would become an unfair competitor in the work agency and recruitment market?

Greece was following the Troika's austerity programe as a prerequisite for those loans. The loans that it was getting were just a political exercise and nothing more because the consequences were and are still worse than just throwing them a loan every 5 years. Greece had no business using the Euro in the first place!

I am not saying relocate there permanently. Work for a couple of years, then go back or stay or go somewhere else - it's an entire continent. People aren't using those agencies because they are shady or they try to hire you as an independent contractor. If the EU kicks them to the curb then good riddance.

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And so we have something to laugh about in all this mess...

https://www.der-postillon.com/2019/0...e-allianz.html



Translation by me.. :P



And this is the news from the UK (not-translated by me):

https://www.the-postillon.com/2017/0...moat.html#more



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The EU isn't shitting gold. EU funds are not a magic solution for shitty national policies. That's what I'm saying. Throwing money at problems never ever worked long term. You need to fix the underlying causes first, then you can start throwing money at it to patch it up.

What's more important than social mobility? Do you really think that the people in the former industrial centers would have voted for Brexit, if they had been retrained to do other jobs? Do you honestly think that the poor would be bamboozled by a bunch of right-wing opportunists? You can try to stir up racial hatred or prowl on nationalistic tendencies but if people have secure employment they would point and laugh at you. There's a reason why far-right parties were a fringe before 2008.

You can't demand further integration without the people wanting it or without them PERCEIVING that you are offering them a better deal than their national government. The EU has done a lot of great things but it has always failed to reach out to individuals, that's the problem.

[Kallisto]

corbyn can call as many VONCs as he likes lol.

And because of his past with IRA sympathising he's never going to win. The DUP would rather burn the country down than side with him. No Conservative is going to vote against their own government and even Lib Dems have pretty much said they're not going to blindly side with him. Get out of fantasy land.

[Slant]

What's more important than social mobility? Do you really think that the people in the former industrial centers would have voted for Brexit, if they had been retrained to do other jobs? Do you honestly think that the poor would be bamboozled by a bunch of right-wing opportunists? You can try to stir up racial hatred or prowl on nationalistic tendencies but if people have secure employment they would point and laugh at you. There's a reason why far-right parties were a fringe before 2008.

You can't demand further integration without the people wanting it or without them PERCEIVING that you are offering them a better deal than their national government. The EU has done a lot of great things but it has always failed to reach out to individuals, that's the problem.

That is the problem. But if anyone thinks they'll get money without something in return, they're quite lunatic. Of course there will be more control over what's being done with the money. It's my money. Why would anyone seriously expect me to be okay with handing it out to anyone without making sure that the root cause is eliminated first? I could think of better ways to spent money than throwing it at a problem without actually changing the situation for the better. Like giving it to a junkie or using it to light candles.

[plothwalker]

That is the problem. But if anyone thinks they'll get money without something in return, they're quite lunatic. Of course there will be more control over what's being done with the money. It's my money. Why would anyone seriously expect me to be okay with handing it out to anyone without making sure that the root cause is eliminated first? I could think of better ways to spent money than throwing it at a problem without actually changing the situation for the better. Like giving it to a junkie or using it to light candles.

Says the cunt whose nation gets a de facto 6% subsidy from the rest of the european union every year.

If most of us had our way you people shouldn't have been allowed to reunify for another hundred years and get another shot at genocide.

[zealo]

Says the cunt whose nation gets a de facto 6% subsidy from the rest of the european union every year.

If most of us had our way you people shouldn't have been allowed to reunify for another hundred years and get another shot at genocide.

Germany is de-facto a net contributor to the EU budget.

[Triks]

That is the problem. But if anyone thinks they'll get money without something in return, they're quite lunatic. Of course there will be more control over what's being done with the money. It's my money. Why would anyone seriously expect me to be okay with handing it out to anyone without making sure that the root cause is eliminated first? I could think of better ways to spent money than throwing it at a problem without actually changing the situation for the better. Like giving it to a junkie or using it to light candles.

Nobody is denying that and I am not demanding more money. I am suggesting that the current money should be spent in a better way.

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Germany is de-facto a net contributor to the EU budget.

Report and ignore.

[Slant]

Nobody is denying that and I am not demanding more money. I am suggesting that the current money should be spent in a better way.

Well, that's a universal truth, isn't it. Money should always be spent in a better way.

[Acidbaron]

Nobody is denying that and I am not demanding more money. I am suggesting that the current money should be spent in a better way.

But what you are suggesting is a more federal europe, a europe that does get involved on a national level and becomes no longer a watchdog. I'm fine with that to a point but there's a whole lot of people who are not.

And take note that we are getting another crazy group of eurosceptics led by the 5 star movement from Italy this EU election, what is projected to gain about 30 seats, what is rather substantial. But rather those eurosceptics than those funded by russia to be honest.

[Floopa]

so two things were revealed today:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...778673154.html and https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/st...217469953?s=09

now in 1 mind i am happy with brexit if we avoid the latter, but if it means the former i'd prefer to stay.

i would be very sad if our food regulations were reduced in a race to the bottom just to satisfy neoliberals, and right wing disaster capitalists.

also lol to ireland who finally realise the price they pay for EU unity lmao

[Slant]

so two things were revealed today:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...778673154.html and https://twitter.com/EU_Commission/st...217469953?s=09

now in 1 mind i am happy with brexit if we avoid the latter, but if it means the former i'd prefer to stay.

i would be very sad if our food regulations were reduced in a race to the bottom just to satisfy neoliberals, and right wing disaster capitalists.

also lol to ireland who finally realise the price they pay for EU unity lmao

What a nightmare, the US doing its usual FTA thing again, asking the UK to remove all kinds of limits to open up for the sub-standard goods the US exports. Have fun with increased toxin levels in your food, Brexiteers. But it'll be cheap... so cheap, even that your farmers can close up shop for good.

[Floopa]

What a nightmare, the US doing its usual FTA thing again, asking the UK to remove all kinds of limits to open up for the sub-standard goods the US exports. Have fun with increased toxin levels in your food, Brexiteers. But it'll be cheap... so cheap, even that your farmers can close up shop for good.

you are absolutely right, the UK cannot and should not lower our food regs. it makes any trade agreement with the EU impossible (who we get most of our fruit/veg etc from) and makes the general population unhealthy.

reminder that the UK is the world leader in vegan food right now.

on the topic of tax law, i mentioned ireland because ireland cannot compete on the same metrics as germany/france (population, specialised industry), instead they compete through lower taxes. the idea that a "one size fits all" tax could emerge would destroy smaller EU economies and just prop up germany/france.

worth reminding people too, in 2-3 weeks the german/italian figures come out and i suspect their growth will be 0.1%, and italy will be 0% growth (no growth) or negative growth (contraction; recession). meanwhile the UK economy, albeit at a much slower rate than it would have without brexit, continues to grow.

[Slant]

you are absolutely right, the UK cannot and should not lower our food regs. it makes any trade agreement with the EU impossible (who we get most of our fruit/veg etc from) and makes the general population unhealthy.

reminder that the UK is the world leader in vegan food right now.

on the topic of tax law, i mentioned ireland because ireland cannot compete on the same metrics as germany/france (population, specialised industry), instead they compete through lower taxes. the idea that a "one size fits all" tax could emerge would destroy smaller EU economies and just prop up germany/france.

worth reminding people too, in 2-3 weeks the german/italian figures come out and i suspect their growth will be 0.1%, and italy will be 0% growth (no growth) or negative growth (contraction; recession). meanwhile the UK economy, albeit at a much slower rate than it would have without brexit, continues to grow.

That's just one side of the coin. The other is that wealthier states (that naturally generate more tax due to their demographic, industry and geography) are obligated to equalise by sending money to the poorer states that do not have these advantaeous conditions. This happens in Germany every year, where richer states like Bavaria sponsor states like lower saxony next door, that is largely just argriculture.

Here's a graphic:



In a EU wide scenario, it could look like this: Everyone feeds a certain amount into a common pool by a flat percentage of their GDP, thus Ireland would pay in way less than Germany. And then the pool is divied up equally, so Ireland would get out more than Germany does, being a net receiver while Germany is a net contributor. You can play around with all kinds of numbers to fine tune this. You could even set up a division key in which extreme top end countries like Germany and France receive next to nothing while almost all of the pool goes to the bottom few countries.

A common tax policy cannot, must not be implemented without a mechanic like that. Otherwise you're right, Ireland would have no chance to prosper. But the key goal here is not to force Ireland (or Greece) to copy Germany, because they just can't. The key goal here is to let Ireland be Ireland and still succeed without shady tax tactics. Let Greece focus on tourism, mediterranean food products and everything else that makes Greece great, but fight corruption in their country, too, via a tax collection system supervised by Brussels.