So every Elemental Shaman happy now?

[Keltas]

Last reply because after such a statement, i don't want to drag this discussion any further.
If your damage on them is shit, you fail, that is the sole challenge of the entire encounter, if you do not kill those in time (or struggle to kill them) you are not going to kill Fetid or will always have trouble killing him.

Nobody cares how "safely" you get to them, if you cannot deliver a modicum of damage on those pustules, you rely on others to pick up the slack on the most difficult part of the encounter.

Movement at the end of day is just means to an end - the end being dps on priority targets.

So you decide to back out because you want to completely change what I was even saying to be about something entirely different? I never mentioned damage in any of my posts, because it has NOTHING to do with anything I was saying.

Our movement abilities have absolutely nothing to do with our damage profile. I never mentioned it and my post about warlocks being worse on that fight had nothing to fucking do with their damage. I know our priority target damage is shit, and it has nothing to do with anything I've said in this thread.


You clearly were never here to try to make a point, you just want to whine until shamans are literally doing more than anyone else while flying around faster than everyone else. You pick at every single fight and situation (regardless of what it has to do with what I'm saying) until you find a single point where "hey we suck!" and then run away like you've won.

[Ragnarocket]

Both of you chill out. Keep the discussion civil.

[HCLM]

My point still stands though. LB is our the hardest hitting spell, it hits much harder than fillers of other classes. That is why we lose much more dps if we miss casts due to movement. Also we recover slower from movement than other classes.

[Antilurker77]

Icefury is viable now though. It actually sims higher for me than the standard SE/PE build.

[Niwes]

It is your personal opinion though.

Personally, I like every aspect of Ele as it is right now, and IMO blizzard is doing a great job bringing the spec back. Ele has clear weak and strong sides.

ofc its my personal oppinion. which oppinion should it else be ? are we at that low point that we need to add imo on every sentence, just because ppl in a „discussion forum“ are too stupid to realize that every statement is subjective, when not offering some fixed facts including source ?

how stupid...

[gushDH]

Shaman was garbage for almost 5 months, how long does it take for whining to be reasonable?

Shamans were rightfully complaining.

[Niwes]

You realize every caster has a resource, and every caster loses said resource when they aren't casting, right? It's the exact same for every caster.



Mages have off-gcd blink if they talent it, which I heavily considered throwing in there as a caveat, but that's the only real thing any other caster has over us. Some people can spam dots but they don't really do more than frost shock when spammed. I've played mage plenty, and yeah I'd agree they are better at movement, but it's not nearly as bad as all of you try to make it.

direct comparison example:

you go ghostwolf. gcd.
mage blink. no gcd.

you have to run to location x for 3-4 seconds.
mage is already there in 0-0,5 seconds.

you have to go out of ghostwolf now.
mage already casts.

you can do nothing in ghostwolf.
mage with shimmer do not even cancel cast while blinked, as long as its the right direction.

sorry, mate. but there are WORLDS between them. IF shamans had still Gust of Wind (a wonderful talent and the reason why i loved Legion shaman), then we would come closer. Not as near as mage, but so close that your statement would be true. But blizz decided to take away movement from shaman and removed Gust of Winds.

Heck, its obvious when you just look at your ONLY movement talent: the additional (laughable) speed bonus of ghostwolf isnt even active at all when you switch out of GW in a raid, after moving out of fire. normally you run 5-8 yards somewhere for around 1-3 seconds. In that time you have gained maybe 1 stack at the moment you switch out of GW. And now compare THAT talent to shimmer. LOL.

You can (like you did) also argue that you run without GW and spam Frostshock. First: ALL dot classes in the game do WAY more dmg via their dots when all up like your FS spam will do. Around factor 4 when they also powered up via class mechanics, which they will ofc do, before they have to move a while. And the second thing is: While you move slowly on normal speed and spam FS, an affli lock (i.e.) will move 40% faster and do around tripple dmg in that time. Or lets take a shadow (which is known for a spec with bad movement): He do more than double dmg than you and use shield talent and move 30% faster than you.

Long story short: Ele Shamans are by far the spec with the worst movement, when it comes down to rapidly moving around in boss encounters (aka movement encounters). Since over 80% are movement encounters since years, shaman obviously is most fucked up here.

Sorry, but i will never agree to what you say. I play both classes on a weekly base. Completely no way to even come close to a mages movement.

- - - Updated - - -

Shaman was garbage for almost 5 months, how long does it take for whining to be reasonable?

Shamans were rightfully complaining.

Alone the fact that they big announced (Blue Posted) and said that SP and shaman will get their overhaul after launch, because time runned out, will call Blizzard plain and simple liars. All what both specs got, was a heavy numbers increase. They think ppl forget and they can get away with it and still get their $$$, as long as they make big dmg. Its a shame.

Every Shaman and every SP in this game has all right to complain, because they simply do not even had a beta. They have all deserved what Blizzard granted them. And i would praise them if they pay no longer even one cent to that greedy mofos called Bli$$ard. Because when you jerking and blindsiding your paying customers, you deserve an ass kick and no money at all.

[HCLM]

ofc its my personal oppinion. which oppinion should it else be ? are we at that low point that we need to add imo on every sentence, just because ppl in a „discussion forum“ are too stupid to realize that every statement is subjective, when not offering some fixed facts including source ?

how stupid...

Actually, yes, you should be doing that. You are presenting your point as it is an fact which is not. And it's natural to expect from educated people to use sentences like 'in my opinion, I think, I believe' if they are talking about something that concerns only them and not general aspect of the class.

If you were a bit more experienced in playing Shaman maybe you would know that we have currently 5 or 6 different talent setups, which are viable for different areas of the game, and our rotation chances a lot when using them. Where most classes have only 2-3 at best.

Defensive is no bad anymore. We don't have immunities but we still have 40% dmg red spell on short CD, and another one from Earth Ele. For the interphase where there is not much to dps (vectis for example) we have ghost wolf form which is awesome for it. Give Ele one more defensive CD and we would become the tankiest spec in the game outside of tanks of course.

Playwise Ele is just like everything else in BFA, but we have much more synergy than other classes, and we are far more reactive spec. So you can't say that gameplay is boring.

These are the facts.

BTW. Calling other people stupid won't make you smarter

[Niwes]

Actually, yes, you should be doing that. You are presenting your point as it is an fact which is not. And it's natural to expect from educated people to use sentences like 'in my opinion, I think, I believe' if they are talking about something that concerns only them and not general aspect of the class.

If you were a bit more experienced in playing Shaman maybe you would know that we have currently 5 or 6 different talent setups, which are viable for different areas of the game, and our rotation chances a lot when using them. Where most classes have only 2-3 at best.

Defensive is no bad anymore. We don't have immunities but we still have 40% dmg red spell on short CD, and another one from Earth Ele. For the interphase where there is not much to dps (vectis for example) we have ghost wolf form which is awesome for it. Give Ele one more defensive CD and we would become the tankiest spec in the game outside of tanks of course.

Playwise Ele is just like everything else in BFA, but we have much more synergy than other classes, and we are far more reactive spec. So you can't say that gameplay is boring.

These are the facts.

BTW. Calling other people stupid won't make you smarter

no. i do NOT do this. YOU interprete this into my words. nowhere i ever stated this as a fact.

and NO, i rarely met adult ppl (i am 41 btw) that have to tell that it is their oppinion when they say something based on .... their oppinion. what else should it be ? hillarious.

talent setups i totally agree with you. shamans have more working combinations than many (not all) other classes. but on the other side none of them feels not relatively boring to me. they all add nothing to the game play. in my oppinion (see what i did here ?)

def CD i really can not agree. nothing really changed and we are still at the bottom of this.

slowly your words give me a feeling of you just defending shaman because of fanboy‘ism or some weird try to defend the class from yourself because its your main since years and you do not want to get made it meh for yourself. i mained a shaman many years too, but i also play other classes. but... no clue.

all in all this discussion is somewhat stupid and useless, and leads to nowhere and therefore i am out here.

[ornichi]

It may do more DPS but it plays a lot worse. Spending two-thirds of the fight spamming lightning bolt isn't fun.

Won't discover America for you if I say that every class has a filler/builder spell.

I bet you are of those shamans, who never use Frost shocks during movement and never heard about Eye of Storm ability or how to use it.

Then yes, most of the time you either cast bolts or you don't cast bolts.

[trm90]

We're more fun and we're finally a "proper" turret class with high ST damage on low-movement patchwerk, but I'm not holding my breath, I think our spec isn't great for progression. No burst movement or immunities still makes it hard to handle the tougher mechanics.

That being said, the last few fights have some great uses for Wind Rush Totem, which for some reason is heavily underutilized by guilds.

[Keltas]

snip

But you're throwing the DoTs damage into that, and you aren't "gaining" that dot damage while moving. It was already applied and already going to happen, just like we get flame shock damage while moving.
Burning rush takes a GCD to turn on, just like Ghost wolf. It's basically ghost wolf except you can maybe use a couple instants during it.

For an example of "spammable while moving" damage numbers, these are the on initial hit values: (without auras, which are all like - or +10%~)

Frost shock does 45% SP
Flame shock does 35% SP
SWP does 22% SP
Aff DoTs do no application damage, but agony can force a stack. Not really a flat number but it's pretty low.
Moonfire is 14.5% SP
Sunfire is 20% SP
Conflag is 100% SP, but a 13s base CD

We actually have the hardest hitting spammable instant for movement.

As for flame shock vs other dots, Well FS is 8.9% SP per second, and most other classes seem to hover around 7-11%. I thought it would be lower but it's pretty similar to other dot classes. They nerfed the shit out of most DoTs this expansion so everyones dots end up being like 10-20% of their dps now. It's nowhere near 3-4x even comparing to the highest difference (shadow) when they have all DoT AP traits.

As I mentioned before, shimmer is obviously a broken outlier. If shimmer was gone mages would have to deal with on gcd blink (which doesn't go all that far) and it would be relatively reasonable. It doesn't take 3-4 seconds to cover a blink in GW, more like 1.5-2. You'll overtake them too if movement lasts longer than that.


It's fine if you don't agree with any opinions I have on movement, but it's simply not true that they do more damage with instants, and DoTs are quite close now in damage. I'd agree if it was last expansions DoT numbers.

[Stormbreed]

Elemental Shaman are in control of burst dps, if they had an execute or crazy movement they would be OP.

Resto is where it needs to be.

Enhance needs love but lets not forget, things are a lot better. Thank you Blizz for hearing us!

[Antilurker77]

Won't discover America for you if I say that every class has a filler/builder spell.

I bet you are of those shamans, who never use Frost shocks during movement and never heard about Eye of Storm ability or how to use it.

Then yes, most of the time you either cast bolts or you don't cast bolts.

An off-GCD ability you press every 2.5 minutes means the spec isn't spammy? Are you trolling?

Elemental is tied with Arcane as the most filler-spamming caster specs in the game. And no it isn't normal, most specs spend 30-50% of the time using their filler.

[Jotaux]

But you're throwing the DoTs damage into that, and you aren't "gaining" that dot damage while moving. It was already applied and already going to happen, just like we get flame shock damage while moving.
Burning rush takes a GCD to turn on, just like Ghost wolf. It's basically ghost wolf except you can maybe use a couple instants during it.

For an example of "spammable while moving" damage numbers, these are the on initial hit values: (without auras, which are all like - or +10%~)

Frost shock does 45% SP
Flame shock does 35% SP
SWP does 22% SP
Aff DoTs do no application damage, but agony can force a stack. Not really a flat number but it's pretty low.
Moonfire is 14.5% SP
Sunfire is 20% SP
Conflag is 100% SP, but a 13s base CD

We actually have the hardest hitting spammable instant for movement.

As for flame shock vs other dots, Well FS is 8.9% SP per second, and most other classes seem to hover around 7-11%. I thought it would be lower but it's pretty similar to other dot classes. They nerfed the shit out of most DoTs this expansion so everyones dots end up being like 10-20% of their dps now. It's nowhere near 3-4x even comparing to the highest difference (shadow) when they have all DoT AP traits.

As I mentioned before, shimmer is obviously a broken outlier. If shimmer was gone mages would have to deal with on gcd blink (which doesn't go all that far) and it would be relatively reasonable. It doesn't take 3-4 seconds to cover a blink in GW, more like 1.5-2. You'll overtake them too if movement lasts longer than that.


It's fine if you don't agree with any opinions I have on movement, but it's simply not true that they do more damage with instants, and DoTs are quite close now in damage. I'd agree if it was last expansions DoT numbers.

This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of DoT damage. No you do not gain dot damage from moving if you are another class but you lose less damage than a shaman does. Agony and corruption do roughly the same damage each as flame shock, except you have two of them, so an affliction lock will be doing double the damage during movement, triple the damage if you have siphon life up. A moonkin would have 3 dots, moonfire and sunfire doing roughly the same each as flame shock plus stellar flare does about half the damage, so 2 and a half times more damage. Spriests have shadow word pain and vampiric touch (I don't have the numbers for atm).

[Keltas]

This is just a fundamental misunderstanding of DoT damage. No you do not gain dot damage from moving if you are another class but you lose less damage than a shaman does. Agony and corruption do roughly the same damage each as flame shock, except you have two of them, so an affliction lock will be doing double the damage during movement, triple the damage if you have siphon life up. A moonkin would have 3 dots, moonfire and sunfire doing roughly the same each as flame shock plus stellar flare does about half the damage, so 2 and a half times more damage. Spriests have shadow word pain and vampiric touch (I don't have the numbers for atm).

I wasn't saying dots gain damage while moving, I was just pointing out his post read like he was saying you did. I'm saying exactly what you are (other than we aren't losing that much compared to them, and we are dealing more with instants that make up that difference).

Comparing in game with what characters I have near my shaman in ilvl, they look to be (at most with talents) 2.3~x more as affliction.

I was using wowhead tooltips for those numbers and forgot mastery affects most of them and not ours, but the difference still ends up being about 2x (or around 10% SP a second) more than us with DoTs. That's not much, and spamming FrS at 45% compared to like sunfire at 20% makes up that difference.

Again my whole argument is that the sky is apparently falling because we are the worst at movement, but we really don't suck more than most other ranged do right now. All the ranged feel like shit moving. If you won't look at my opinion go read any of their discords or forum sections and it's all the exact same complaints about every other class from theirs having better movement. You'll find a million people who will tell you shaman is the bees knees at moving around a fight and paint their class with every negative you paint shaman with.

[Antilurker77]

Your comparison is completely wrong. You failed to account for the damage tuning auras, Moonkin form, or Balance's mastery. The default PE/SE build isn't good at dealing with movement, and to argue otherwise is objectively wrong.

[Keltas]

Your comparison is completely wrong. You failed to account for the damage tuning auras, Moonkin form, or Balance's mastery. The default PE/SE build isn't good at dealing with movement, and to argue otherwise is objectively wrong.

The damage tuning auras for shadow and boomkin are -18% on their DoTs/instants, compared to our -2%. Although I didn't think Aff was still at +25%, but my aff comparison was with in game characters I have at similar gear levels.
I just went and browsed some logs and picked out a bunch of random ones, and our FrS/FS initial hit are hitting plenty harder on average than boomkins initial dot hit. They're closer, but still a lot ahead of, SWP initial hits. We also tend to be tied with boomkin and shadow on every fight no matter what type of movement happens, despite us losing supposedly more from movement.


Yes, our PE build sucks at movement for 30s out of every 2.5minutes, but it's the exact same as destruction's' infernal build. I have pointed that out already as sucking, but it's painful for every class to move during their major cooldown, that's not like some unique to us thing. We don't even have the highest damage cooldown window. Warlocks/arcane/fire do.

Again it's just pointing out a specific situation or time in a fight and not looking at what I originally said to the first guy I responded to or what I've been saying. We really don't have it worse than other casters on general movement (except mages with shimmer). The DoT damage values was already getting way off my original point.

Everyone has some movement situations they are better than the others in, we do too. Yeah ours came up less this tier but next tier has quite a few times I can see it being useful. If we're going to complain about our class it should really be something other than our movement. Like survivability, mastery, or damage outside our major cooldown.

Edit: Shouldn't Mother be a perfect example of your "huge loss" we experience from super high movement compared to other DoT focused casters? Because I don't see much of a gap at all between us and other hybrids, and this fight is probably the most extreme example we'll have all expansion.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...141&dataset=95

[HCLM]

Edit: Shouldn't Mother be a perfect example of your "huge loss" we experience from super high movement compared to other DoT focused casters? Because I don't see much of a gap at all between us and other hybrids, and this fight is probably the most extreme example we'll have all expansion.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...141&dataset=95

Nope it is not. Mother is dying in 2nd room now, so there are only small movement windows during the winds, which occurs like 3-5 times throughout the fight, but it's still enough to place us at the bottom of the table.

[Kaver]

So a game development company staffed by people who claim to play the game can't run sims or play-test the DPS rotations THEY MADE for the game they are employed to develop?

Have you seen Blizzards talent and trinket design.. they are completely incompetent when it comes to balancing...