So, item levels are getting spiked for no reason. Again.

[kubaje]

For PVE: Now you're arguing that you can design for high-ranked raiders and it not be difficult high-skill content? Come on.

You don't get the point. Killing the bosses in Naxx wasn't difficult if you had an IQ above 50. What made Naxx exclusive and so desirable was the journey it took to get there. Getting to 60 took a while, as did getting pre raid gear, as did getting t1, as did getting t2. All those things gave you the feeling of accomplishment and Naxx was the pinnacle of that.

Again, exclusivity creates desire. Nothing else.

[FelPlague]

Nice quote, yet it has nothing to do with what I said AND it's Ghostcrawler lol.

You don't necessarily aspire to be the one to do hard content. Exclusivity creates Desire. Vanilla content wasn't difficult by any means. You saw people with Naxx or Sunwell Items in the capital cities and had one of two possible thoughts. Either "wow this guy is awesome, i really want to be like him" or "wow he has to have no life to have those items". In both cases it created the desire to get better and be more invested in the game. Today it's the opposite.

Except most people chose to stop raiding nax because it was too overstatted and the commitment needed was far too much, when in a few months when TBC would come out, it would all be invalid.
nax had such a low player count because of how it was hard and people did not care to do hard content if the reward was not going to last them long enough.

[kubaje]

Except most people chose to stop raiding nax because it was too overstatted and the commitment needed was far too much, when in a few months when TBC would come out, it would all be invalid.
nax had such a low player count because of how it was hard and people did not care to do hard content if the reward was not going to last them long enough.

YOU JUST ANSWERED THIS THREAD.

This is BfA's problem.

[Elias01]

Remember when the molten core gear got buffed?
remember when the gear from molten core literally got taken out, and added back into the next raid?
remember when diremaul a dungeon dropped better gear then the first raid?

It is called fixiing itemization. And? So Dire Maul droped better gear than MC so what? What have this to do with bumping up itemlvls in like warfronts or world q? Did Dire Maul trivilized your effort what you put into content previously? No it ddidnt.

[FelPlague]

You don't get the point. Killing the bosses in Naxx wasn't difficult if you had an IQ above 50. What made Naxx exclusive and so desirable was the journey it took to get there. Getting to 60 took a while, as did getting pre raid gear, as did getting t1, as did getting t2. All those things gave you the feeling of accomplishment and Naxx was the pinnacle of that.

Again, exclusivity creates desire. Nothing else.

nah nax was pretty hard, the mechanics were simple but the number values were insane.
Yes exclusivity in some cases creates desire, but the amount of people who can do that exlusive content is farl ess then those who cant, and why make a game for 1% of your playerbase?
but again this does not always work.

if you told mythic raiders they got literally nothing but acheives, you think they would do it as often?
do you think pvpers would do high rank pvp if they only got acheives?
no that was proven false, because as blizz tried to add ways for people to get 2200 rating gear (allowing people to buy old season sets if theuy reach 2200) PEOPLE FREAKED THE FUCK OUT death threats, harrasment, and spam all over, because "we dont want other people having our shit, it makes us special") now while yes you can say the exlusivity creates that, it does, but the issue is more of if in the future it was only acheives, would those people still go for them? or is it only the set itself that makes them want it, and not the simple concept of "i did this when it was hard"

an acheive is all you need really for exclusivity, to be able to say "i did this then"
most people want tmog, or mounts, or other cosmetics because they like how it looks, not because of how rare it is... how many do you see flying around on the TLPD?
acheives are the ultimate exclusivity, as they prove, you "got to 2200 week 1" but that is not enough for people, people want options.

and again people who raided nax, who raid high level mythic, or who reach 2200 rating are a miniscule minority.
should we build the game around a minority, or majority?

If i have a hamburger stand, and i have only enough settup for 3 different burgers.
Should I do a hamburger, cheeseburger, and veggie burger?
Or should I do cheeseburger, veggie burger, and gluten free meat free, dairy free, organic vegan burger, for that one customer that shows up once a month?

i would go with the top choice...

[Jambalam]

It most definitely was. Stat values for gear increased each raid.

Nobody is saying stat values didnt increase with each raid...

We just didn't have these ridiculous catch up systems. In Vanilla and TBC you had to progress through the previous content in order to gear up and earn the right to do new content. We had some small catch up stuff at end of TBC but nothing even close to todays standard and it didn't negate old content in the gearing path, guilds were still progressing through SSC and TK at the end of TBC. What is the point in raising the entire item level of the game by 30? All it does is negate Uldir and allow easier access to Dazar’alor. What's the point?

The gear treadmill is just so obvious these days, it breaks all RPG elements of the game to be a dungeon on Tuesday getting 325 gear and then logging in on Wednesday and suddenly it's dropping 340 gear and the difficulty has scaled up... they should be making new dungeons with higher item level drops, enough with this scaling bullshit.

[Skildar]

I don't get it honestly...
It might sound like a cheap method to you, but I actually like that they try keeping those heroic dungeons, wq and warfront relevant. It would be a shame to have this much content go to the trash because you want them to add more to do. We already have plenty, and you would complain that it is over bearing for current players and way too complicated for a new players if they added more!

[FelPlague]

It is called fixiing itemization. And? So Dire Maul droped better gear than MC so what? What have this to do with bumping up itemlvls in like warfronts or world q?

Because we will be getting new world quests, and like in the old days we do dailies the entire expansion, for reps, for gold, and for tokens.
Warfronts dont scale, the only one is darkshore currently, and that is because it came out early to give us abit, but now that the raid is out, it is being buffed so it is still useful.
darkshore came out only 5 weeks ago, most of us have done it 2 times.
AFTER ONLY 2 TIMES you want the entire thing to be invalidated?
it is a single piece of gear every 2 and a half weeksish.
it is 8.1 content and should be atleast somewhat useful for all of 8.1, not literally 2 cycles.

it was either scale it up for the raid, or just we JUST get darkshore this week.


would you rather world quests not give higher ilvl gear? would you rather warfronts not give higher level gear?
would you rather mythic plus stop at 385 ilvl making the ENTIRE of M+ useless from now on?
what would you rather have more or less options?

- - - Updated - - -

Nobody is saying stat values didnt increase with each raid...

We just didn't have these ridiculous catch up systems. In Vanilla and TBC you had to progress through the previous content in order to gear up and earn the right to do new content. We had some small catch up stuff at end of TBC but nothing even close to todays standard and it didn't negate old content in the gearing path, guilds were still progressing through SSC and TK at the end of TBC. What is the point in raising the entire item level of the game by 30? All it does is negate Uldir and allow easier access to Dazar’alor. What's the point?

The gear treadmill is just so obvious these days, it breaks all RPG elements of the game to be a dungeon on Tuesday getting 325 gear and then logging in on Wednesday and suddenly it's dropping 340 gear and the difficulty has scaled up... they should be making new dungeons with higher item level drops, enough with this scaling bullshit.

No you didnt, there was many ways to skip gearing example vanilla you could craft gear or buy gear and go straight to AQ, skipping 3 entire raids or just get carried cause every 40 man had room for atleast 5-8 carries.
you could do diremaul and get gear better then MC
Your guild could just carry you
you could just go to Zul gurub and get ez gear there.

same with tbc, i literally made the shadow damage tailoring set and then replaced none of that crafted gear all the way till sunwell released.
you did the early raids and dungeons to get your attunements, then just go gear through badges or crafting, and never needed to touch those early raids again.

And on the "they should make new dungeons with the better gear"
you rather have LITERALLY ONE FUCKING DUNGEON you have to do over and over AND OVER, AND OVER.
then have the option of any dungeon you want?
yeah no fuck that, your crazy.

[Narzok]

Nobody is saying stat values didnt increase with each raid...

We just didn't have these ridiculous catch up systems. In Vanilla and TBC you had to progress through the previous content in order to gear up and earn the right to do new content. We had some small catch up stuff at end of TBC but nothing even close to todays standard and it didn't negate old content in the gearing path, guilds were still progressing through SSC and TK at the end of TBC. What is the point in raising the entire item level of the game by 30? All it does is negate Uldir and allow easier access to Dazar’alor. What's the point?

The gear treadmill is just so obvious these days, it breaks all RPG elements of the game to be a dungeon on Tuesday getting 325 gear and then logging in on Wednesday and suddenly it's dropping 340 gear and the difficulty has scaled up... they should be making new dungeons with higher item level drops, enough with this scaling bullshit.

here is your answer.

that is the way the developers of the game want their game to be.
take it or leave.

[Jambalam]

would you rather world quests not give higher ilvl gear? would you rather warfronts not give higher level gear?
would you rather mythic plus stop at 385 ilvl making the ENTIRE of M+ useless from now on?
what would you rather have more or less options?

1. yes

2. get more gear from the new raid and then you can push higher keys for better gear, i don't know why they are giving m+ a cap, it should scale infinitely

3. dungeons and world content shouldn't be on the same level as raids and high end pvp, more options for gearing doesn't make things better.. why do casuals who do nothing but world content and dungeons need better gear anyway?

[Elias01]

Because we will be getting new world quests, and like in the old days we do dailies the entire expansion, for reps, for gold, and for tokens.
Warfronts dont scale, the only one is darkshore currently, and that is because it came out early to give us abit, but now that the raid is out, it is being buffed so it is still useful.
darkshore came out only 5 weeks ago, most of us have done it 2 times.
AFTER ONLY 2 TIMES you want the entire thing to be invalidated?
it is a single piece of gear every 2 and a half weeksish.
it is 8.1 content and should be atleast somewhat useful for all of 8.1, not literally 2 cycles.

it was either scale it up for the raid, or just we JUST get darkshore this week.


would you rather world quests not give higher ilvl gear? would you rather warfronts not give higher level gear?
would you rather mythic plus stop at 385 ilvl making the ENTIRE of M+ useless from now on?
what would you rather have more or less options?

- - - Updated - - -



No you didnt, there was many ways to skip gearing example vanilla you could craft gear or buy gear and go straight to AQ, skipping 3 entire raids or just get carried cause every 40 man had room for atleast 5-8 carries.
you could do diremaul and get gear better then MC
Your guild could just carry you
you could just go to Zul gurub and get ez gear there.

same with tbc, i literally made the shadow damage tailoring set and then replaced none of that crafted gear all the way till sunwell released.
you did the early raids and dungeons to get your attunements, then just go gear through badges or crafting, and never needed to touch those early raids again.

And on the "they should make new dungeons with the better gear"
you rather have LITERALLY ONE FUCKING DUNGEON you have to do over and over AND OVER, AND OVER.
then have the option of any dungeon you want?
yeah no fuck that, your crazy.

Dude people were doing almost all dungeons back in TBC and they were relevant entire expansion. You literaly now defend system what makes players quit game.

[kubaje]

nah nax was pretty hard, the mechanics were simple but the number values were insane.
Yes exclusivity in some cases creates desire, but the amount of people who can do that exlusive content is farl ess then those who cant, and why make a game for 1% of your playerbase?
but again this does not always work.

if you told mythic raiders they got literally nothing but acheives, you think they would do it as often?
do you think pvpers would do high rank pvp if they only got acheives?
no that was proven false, because as blizz tried to add ways for people to get 2200 rating gear (allowing people to buy old season sets if theuy reach 2200) PEOPLE FREAKED THE FUCK OUT death threats, harrasment, and spam all over, because "we dont want other people having our shit, it makes us special") now while yes you can say the exlusivity creates that, it does, but the issue is more of if in the future it was only acheives, would those people still go for them? or is it only the set itself that makes them want it, and not the simple concept of "i did this when it was hard"

an acheive is all you need really for exclusivity, to be able to say "i did this then"
most people want tmog, or mounts, or other cosmetics because they like how it looks, not because of how rare it is... how many do you see flying around on the TLPD?
acheives are the ultimate exclusivity, as they prove, you "got to 2200 week 1" but that is not enough for people, people want options.

and again people who raided nax, who raid high level mythic, or who reach 2200 rating are a miniscule minority.
should we build the game around a minority, or majority?

If i have a hamburger stand, and i have only enough settup for 3 different burgers.
Should I do a hamburger, cheeseburger, and veggie burger?
Or should I do cheeseburger, veggie burger, and gluten free meat free, dairy free, organic vegan burger, for that one customer that shows up once a month?

i would go with the top choice...

You're mixing things up. Exclusivity only works if it's within its reward structure. PvEers get power, transmog and mounts by killing the most "difficult" shit (here you have the exclusivity), that's why they care about those specific rewards you get there. They don't care about a battle pet or rare spawn mounts, because that's not what their main playstyle rewards. Ofc achievements do have value but that pretty much just on paper. That's too much of a theoretical reward as it doesn't make your character "physically" or visibly better.

Same goes for PvPers. What does their reward structure look like? Power (items), transmog, mounts, rating, titles. They care about the exclusive weapon enchant. They care about the exclusive gladiator mounts. They care about the exclusive transmog sets/titles/(back in the day even rating exclusive items)/rating.


There isn't really much more to say. It's one thing that the game lacks and destroys even quicker with this ilvl bumps - that's exclusivity.

[Fabinas1]

Because we will be getting new world quests, and like in the old days we do dailies the entire expansion, for reps, for gold, and for tokens.
Warfronts dont scale, the only one is darkshore currently, and that is because it came out early to give us abit, but now that the raid is out, it is being buffed so it is still useful.
darkshore came out only 5 weeks ago, most of us have done it 2 times.
AFTER ONLY 2 TIMES you want the entire thing to be invalidated?
it is a single piece of gear every 2 and a half weeksish.
it is 8.1 content and should be atleast somewhat useful for all of 8.1, not literally 2 cycles.

it was either scale it up for the raid, or just we JUST get darkshore this week.


would you rather world quests not give higher ilvl gear? would you rather warfronts not give higher level gear?
would you rather mythic plus stop at 385 ilvl making the ENTIRE of M+ useless from now on?
what would you rather have more or less options?

- - - Updated - - -



No you didnt, there was many ways to skip gearing example vanilla you could craft gear or buy gear and go straight to AQ, skipping 3 entire raids or just get carried cause every 40 man had room for atleast 5-8 carries.
you could do diremaul and get gear better then MC
Your guild could just carry you
you could just go to Zul gurub and get ez gear there.

same with tbc, i literally made the shadow damage tailoring set and then replaced none of that crafted gear all the way till sunwell released.
you did the early raids and dungeons to get your attunements, then just go gear through badges or crafting, and never needed to touch those early raids again.

And on the "they should make new dungeons with the better gear"
you rather have LITERALLY ONE FUCKING DUNGEON you have to do over and over AND OVER, AND OVER.
then have the option of any dungeon you want?
yeah no fuck that, your crazy.

I'd rather get new content, please, apart from the raid. Even Legion with its shitty systems didn't have to go THAT way of buffing rewards on the same difficulties. Since the innate reward buff system is already there. Called M+

It's another sign of Blizzard's bankruptcy in the design values, project and resource management and cowmilking. With the same pathetic food for the cow.

[FelPlague]

1. yes

2. get more gear from the new raid and then you can push higher keys for better gear, i don't know why they are giving m+ a cap, it should scale infinitely

3. dungeons and world content shouldn't be on the same level as raids and high end pvp, more options for gearing doesn't make things better.. why do casuals who do nothing but world content and dungeons need better gear anyway?

you are crazy that you rather do nothing but raid, without the option of dungeons, world content, or warfronts, you really rather have LESS options then more
LOLOLLOL so you want raiding to be literally fucking useless by letting mythic+ scale infinitly? make up your fucking mind, do you want people to raid for gear, and Mythic+ not to scale, or do you want M+ to be the literally only thing anyone does cause it gives ilvl 900 stuff.
World quests are not on the same levels as raids and high end pvp, what fucking world do you live in?

- - - Updated - - -

I'd rather get new content, please, apart from the raid. Even Legion with its shitty systems didn't have to go THAT way of buffing rewards on the same difficulties. Since the innate reward buff system is already there. Called M+

It's another sign of Blizzard's bankruptcy in the design values, project and resource management and cowmilking. With the same pathetic food for the cow.

you rather get new content?
like the new raid
the new warfront
the new world quests
the new quests
the next new raid coming in 8.1.5
the not one, but 2 new dungeons and 4 new zones coming in 8.2 aswell one of them being a mega dungeon, and a new raid, aswell as new azerite system, bodyguard system, and war campaign?

also lol you bring up legion "didnt go that far" you mean how literally every patch they did JUST THIS buffing world quest loot, buffing dungeons, and their loot, resetting the 15 down to 10, while making dungeons harder, and give better gear?

yeah hmmm great example bud.

[Fabinas1]

here is your answer.

that is the way the developers of the game want their game to be.
take it or leave.

Sure. But it definitely shows how much Blizzard's design philosophy and resurce management has changed, if compared to ALL previous expansions.

[Elias01]

you are crazy that you rather do nothing but raid, without the option of dungeons, world content, or warfronts, you really rather have LESS options then more
LOLOLLOL so you want raiding to be literally fucking useless by letting mythic+ scale infinitly? make up your fucking mind, do you want people to raid for gear, and Mythic+ not to scale, or do you want M+ to be the literally only thing anyone does cause it gives ilvl 900 stuff.
World quests are not on the same levels as raids and high end pvp, what fucking world do you live in?

- - - Updated - - -



you rather get new content?
like the new raid
the new warfront
the new world quests
the new quests
the next new raid coming in 8.1.5
the not one, but 2 new dungeons and 4 new zones coming in 8.2 aswell one of them being a mega dungeon, and a new raid, aswell as new azerite system, bodyguard system, and war campaign?

also lol you bring up legion "didnt go that far" you mean how literally every patch they did JUST THIS buffing world quest loot, buffing dungeons, and their loot, resetting the 15 down to 10, while making dungeons harder, and give better gear?

yeah hmmm great example bud.

And non if is fun to do. only reaosn why people do it is becouse they put overpower rewarsd on them. You suggest system what devalues all effort you put into the game.

[FelPlague]

You're mixing things up. Exclusivity only works if it's within its reward structure. PvEers get power, transmog and mounts by killing the most "difficult" shit (here you have the exclusivity), that's why they care about those specific rewards you get there. They don't care about a battle pet or rare spawn mounts, because that's not what their main playstyle rewards. Ofc achievements do have value but that pretty much just on paper. That's too much of a theoretical reward as it doesn't make your character "physically" or visibly better.

Same goes for PvPers. What does their reward structure look like? Power (items), transmog, mounts, rating, titles. They care about the exclusive weapon enchant. They care about the exclusive gladiator mounts. They care about the exclusive transmog sets/titles/(back in the day even rating exclusive items)/rating.


There isn't really much more to say. It's one thing that the game lacks and destroys even quicker with this ilvl bumps - that's exclusivity.

Except you know what is funny?
pvpers dont stop at 2200 rating, or 2800 rating when they would get all the rewards
they keep going
you know why?
cause they like challenge.
even without rewards sometimes
cause you know what?
some people like challenge
but you know what?
people who liek challenge, and people who like exclusivity in wow
are an extreme minority.

[Jambalam]

No you didnt, there was many ways to skip gearing example vanilla you could craft gear or buy gear and go straight to AQ, skipping 3 entire raids or just get carried cause every 40 man had room for atleast 5-8 carries.
you could do diremaul and get gear better then MC
Your guild could just carry you
you could just go to Zul gurub and get ez gear there.

same with tbc, i literally made the shadow damage tailoring set and then replaced none of that crafted gear all the way till sunwell released.
you did the early raids and dungeons to get your attunements, then just go gear through badges or crafting, and never needed to touch those early raids again.

And on the "they should make new dungeons with the better gear"
you rather have LITERALLY ONE FUCKING DUNGEON you have to do over and over AND OVER, AND OVER.
then have the option of any dungeon you want?
yeah no fuck that, your crazy.

You definently didn't play Vanilla if you think you could just craft some gear and head over to AQ. You would never get into an AQ40 guild with crafted blues, you would need to progress - pug some ZG, farm UBRS/Scholo/Strat, find an MC guild, progress into BWL or gear up enough to join a guild with BWL on farm, progress into AQ40 or gear up enough to join a guild with AQ on farm - it was a progression path, you played through the entire game to reach the end.

So you are saying you managed to progress up to clearing Sunwell in BC without going through the previous raids? just using your crafted set and blues? bullshit.

Once you have your gear from the levelling dungeons you should be done with them, i'm glad they put M+ into the game because that gives them longevity, but why do you want the levelling dungeons to be relevant and stay current? They should be the start of your gearing path and that's the purpose they serve.

[FelPlague]

And non if is fun to do. only reaosn why people do it is becouse they put overpower rewarsd on them.

so 370 gear is overpowered? lol ok...
if you dont have fun, and you dont like options, and you feel FORCED to do content, maybe that is your problem, that you feel forced to do stuff instead of just doing it because you want to.

if blizzard adds something, and it has a reward, and because of that you feel forced to do it, that is your fault, not theirs.
do you do weekly +15's uldir lfr, norm, heroic, and mythic every week, aswell as get to 2400 rated pvp every week.

all because you are forced, because they give "overpowered rewards"

[kubaje]

Except you know what is funny?
pvpers dont stop at 2200 rating, or 2800 rating when they would get all the rewards
they keep going
you know why?
cause they like challenge.
even without rewards sometimes
cause you know what?
some people like challenge
but you know what?
people who liek challenge, and people who like exclusivity in wow
are an extreme minority.

Because there are no rewards above 2.8... right. Except for Glad (prior to this stupid BfA System) and Rank 1 Glad. You actually don't know the tiniest bit about rewards.