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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post


    Great video and summary on the topic of gear. It is, in my opinion, the biggest problem with the game right now (next to class design)

    Some time ago, I would look at boss loot tables and map out my gearing, some gear would stay with you for an entire expansion because it was just that good. Now, everything is just linear is just dull and unrewarding.

    It's just the same gameplay, just bigger numbers.

    Let's think about the BC gearing model (pre-sunwell). Gear was non-linear, significantly harder to acquire, players at the top echelon were happy, super-casual players were happy that they had something to aspire to. Both hardcore and casuals were happy. Now, only one side is happy and that's really bad for the game
    100% agree with you and the vid. gear just isnt exciting anymore... at all.. just take the biggest ilvl piece and move on... as you say, I remember mapping out my gear going for those specific pieces. the magic is gone for me... meh

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Others say Wrath heroic dungeons started at 185 (200 just for end) and wrath ended 284 - not 277. I can't remember.

    However, 415 is clearly not the first tier of this expansion - since we have had one tier and no-one is above 395 in item level.
    And 310 are normal dungeons at max-level; comparing that to Wrath heroics is just misleading.
    I'm pretty comfortable if we want to go with 185 to 277. That puts the difference at 92 (which another poster mentioned) from four tiers, plus a pre-expansion raid; so we're talking about five raid sessions and an entire expansion that was perfectly rewarding at less than a hundred points. This expansion is already past the hundred, and the reason I'm suggesting that this is its first tier is because the first tier has been the second raid since Mists of Pandaria (Mogu'shan Vaults in Mists, Highmaul in Warlords, the Emerald Nightmare in Legion and Uldur in this one).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raysz View Post
    This has happened always in WoW, since Vanilla item levels have gone up, are you new to the game? Some people are just grasping for straws, dear god. Before you make some random uninformed post, try to educate yourself.
    Sigh.

    It's been explained, multiple times, why it hasn't existed since vanilla. Read a few posts from the pages and learn. That's all I ask, but don't expect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wisconsen View Post
    I don't disagree, but there are some points i think should be addressed.
    I enjoyed your post, but there's another response I made that you may have missed. This is it, via a link.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Oh boy, I can level an alt and do a couple dungeons and get my guild to waste their time carrying me through attunements. FUCK YEAH! SO MUCH FUN!



    Yes because one change is going to fix the game being old as balls. You're dreaming if you think that there was ever more to reach for than there is now. The old way was "Oh hey you're not in the small fraction of the playerbase that raids at all? Too bad tough shit. Want to get into raiding? Well you're going to have to leech off a mediocre group in order to eventually get into a decent group! Sweet!" Garbage way of doing things. They spent right up until the end of Cataclysm trying to get more than a tiny amount of people engaged in raiding. For those of us that always loved raiding it was great, from the perspective of the company that designed it and their investors, the old way of doing things was an absolute failure. Especially for something that took a fuckton of resources in major content patches.
    Fix it no but make people a hell of a lot more likely to stay subbed yes. You don't have to stepping stone there isn't a rush to the top unlike now where gear gets completely reset. Freaking norm drops mythic level gear.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskra View Post
    I reserve myself for some potential minor errors, but it should be largely accurate.
    One important thing that should be kept in mind: Back then, Epics had inherently higher stats than equal iLvl rares, so pure iLvl difference does not give you the full picture.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Ok cool so why vannila and rbc retained players far more than curent game with acessible content? Your logic doesnt make sense becouse you say things are not in better state even tho people are quiting left and right complaining about exact things you say were bad for the game.
    This is complete bullshit. Vanilla and tbc didn't retain players. WoW has lost 90 million players in the first 10 years of its existence - 90% of total player base. That's what's called quitting left and right.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyw View Post
    100% agree with you and the vid. gear just isnt exciting anymore... at all.. just take the biggest ilvl piece and move on... as you say, I remember mapping out my gear going for those specific pieces. the magic is gone for me... meh
    The fun part about that is that you could go back to Ulduar 10 man and do Thorim HM as a warrior for the Armor Pen Trinket (Mjolnir Runestone, remember the name btw) because it was extremely good until you got the ICC 25HC trinkets. Or going back to TotC to get the Death's Choice trinket. That trinket was even BiS for many classes even when you cleared ICC 25HC. Relevant items even 1(.5) Tier(s) later... wtf. That was an amazing System. Or being able to mix and match your items no matter if it was mail or plate when you were a holy pally because that way you could get more MP5 than with pure plate.

    Then the fun police came and gave us "more choices" by removing pretty much all of them.


    The longer I think about the state of the game, the worse it gets. Wtf do we only have 4 stats to chose from? Ofc I won't care about my Items when there's only 2 good stats for my class and I'll pick whatever has the highest itemlvl with those stats. That's the stat template system from Legion PvP with the illusion of actually having a choice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    This is complete bullshit. Vanilla and tbc didn't retain players. WoW has lost 90 million players in the first 10 years of its existence - 90% of total player base. That's what's called quitting left and right.
    That is incredibly flawed math. Just don't ever post something like that again please.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    The longer I think about the state of the game, the worse it gets. Wtf do we only have 4 stats to chose from? Ofc I won't care about my Items when there's only 2 good stats for my class and I'll pick whatever has the highest itemlvl with those stats. That's the stat template system from Legion PvP with the illusion of actually having a choice.
    Easier to balance, simpler to understand.
    Not every player has the time or the will to go around and look for hit cap or diminihing return or thhe fact thar arpen over 100% was effectively a buff.
    The game has dumbed down every xpac in the hope to attract casual, which are not coming nor staying.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Kill Broccoli View Post
    Easier to balance, simpler to understand.
    Not every player has the time or the will to go around and look for hit cap or diminihing return or thhe fact thar arpen over 100% was effectively a buff.
    The game has dumbed down every xpac in the hope to attract casual, which are not coming nor staying.
    At the cost of fun and actually caring what you got.

    Int used to give casters spell crit, spell power and increased your mana pool. Interesting in 3 ways.

    Strength gave plate classes 2 AP and parry. Interesting in 2 ways.

    Agi gave leather classes 1 AP, melee crit and dodge. 3 Interesting components.

    Then there were spirit, MP5, crit, haste, armor pen, hit, expertise, dodge, parry, AP and SP. In TBC you had even more stats.

    For PvP you had that + Spell pen and resilience.


    Today you have only 4 secondary stats, because primary stats do nothing but increase AP/SP. Two of those are relevant. Which means you can only care about ilvl. Blizz showers you with ilvl. So in return you don't have to/can care about your items. Nice system.


    #morechoices

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    That is incredibly flawed math. Just don't ever post something like that again please.
    There is nothing flawed there. WoW reached 100 million players in 2014 with concurrent subs never being much above 10 million. That means 90 million people already left the game prior to that. In those "glory days" when the game was so great with only a meager 90% turnover rate.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    WoW has lost 90 million players in the first 10 years of its existence - 90% of total player base.
    That's not how it works. You don't math so well.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    This is complete bullshit. Vanilla and tbc didn't retain players. WoW has lost 90 million players in the first 10 years of its existence - 90% of total player base. That's what's called quitting left and right.
    It is 90% of accounts not players. Also time where game lost most of its playerbase was during wotlk, cata and mop not during vannila and tbc. Vannila and tbc had high retatantion rate and Wotlk started huge player drop off as game complelty changed its direction which something what many vannila and tbc players turned off.

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    There is nothing flawed there. WoW reached 100 million players in 2014 with concurrent subs never being much above 10 million. That means 90 million people already left the game prior to that. In those "glory days" when the game was so great with only a meager 90% turnover rate.
    Accounts =/= players, I'd also love to see the source

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    There is nothing flawed there. WoW reached 100 million players in 2014 with concurrent subs never being much above 10 million. That means 90 million people already left the game prior to that. In those "glory days" when the game was so great with only a meager 90% turnover rate.
    That's not how economics work. You calculated a percentage and don't know the interpretation of that. You're basically comparing apples to bricks. You have to put a little more thought into that.

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by lappee View Post
    Accounts =/= players, I'd also love to see the source
    google it?

    https://twitter.com/warcraft/status/...012480?lang=en

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    There is a reason, its called 4 Tiers of diffuculty and invalidation of content every Patch. Nothing new, get used to it and other retard Design choices. The Ritalin Kids need to See the newest content at Minimum effort, See above
    Im in your game Playing LFR mode and there is nothing you can do about it!.

  16. #776
    Its a double edged sword. Existing players feel a lack of power progression and frustration of being "reset" each expac. It allows them to attract new players who will not feel daunted at trying to catch up. A lot of older players, enjoyed the aspiration to to gear up over a long period of time to emulate others they have seen in the game. These days, more and more players want "Plug and Play". The game devs and publishers cater for this as each new player is potential new revenue.
    The problem lies as we have seen with WoW, when the existing player base becomes unhappy and starts to leave, and new players are not engaged enough to stay.
    I'll take my welfare loot for now as I have no choice to stay competitive with my peers.
    But I'd rather have quality over quantity and feel rewarded instead of entitled.

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by kubaje View Post
    At the cost of fun and actually caring what you got.

    Int used to give casters spell crit, spell power and increased your mana pool. Interesting in 3 ways.

    Strength gave plate classes 2 AP and parry. Interesting in 2 ways.

    Agi gave leather classes 1 AP, melee crit and dodge. 3 Interesting components.

    Then there were spirit, MP5, crit, haste, armor pen, hit, expertise, dodge, parry, AP and SP. In TBC you had even more stats.

    For PvP you had that + Spell pen and resilience.

    Today you have only 4 secondary stats, because primary stats do nothing but increase AP/SP. Two of those are relevant. Which means you can only care about ilvl. Blizz showers you with ilvl. So in return you don't have to/can care about your items. Nice system.


    #morechoices
    Yes was fun but today would hardly be manageable. There are 3 more classes than used to be, and class design today is very spec specific. Balancing all those stat for each class/spec it's a huge task and i get why blizz scrapped them.
    Also, completely separated by the ilvl lottery. Stat simplification could easily have been done keeping the bis system.

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by Kill Broccoli View Post
    Easier to balance, simpler to understand.
    Not every player has the time or the will to go around and look for hit cap or diminihing return or thhe fact thar arpen over 100% was effectively a buff.
    The game has dumbed down every xpac in the hope to attract casual, which are not coming nor staying.
    Instead, it's gone the total opposite direction where every single piece of gear needs to be simmed. ArPen was an amazing stat because it gave you choices, hit cap was fine because it forced you to gem for it (and sockets were plentiful) and then you could replace with +stats when you had your hit cap. MP5, spirit, all the defensives, it all mattered and gave players choice.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by MysticsDK View Post
    Its a double edged sword. Existing players feel a lack of power progression and frustration of being "reset" each expac. It allows them to attract new players who will not feel daunted at trying to catch up. A lot of older players, enjoyed the aspiration to to gear up over a long period of time to emulate others they have seen in the game. These days, more and more players want "Plug and Play". The game devs and publishers cater for this as each new player is potential new revenue.
    The problem lies as we have seen with WoW, when the existing player base becomes unhappy and starts to leave, and new players are not engaged enough to stay.
    I'll take my welfare loot for now as I have no choice to stay competitive with my peers.
    But I'd rather have quality over quantity and feel rewarded instead of entitled.
    This is something what Blizzard have to make proper decision for themself. They want to make great game and earn good cash or want to go medicore and be grewdy to earn even more cash. Ufortunately i dont think Blizzard is cappable of creating games for masses like Epic games with Fortnite or Riot with League of Legends. They now doubling down on DI. What if this game fails? I dont think Blizzard is cappable to capture big playerbases like Riot or Epic games no matter how many mobile games they will create.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by burek View Post
    Yeah, so thats created accounts which counts all the "free pass" accounts ever created. Its only a marketing trick and nothing else. If we were to check accounts that actually bought game time (aka subscribers) I'd imagine we'd have far less actual players (which is why we'll never get confirmation on it)

    Its like saying f2p mobile games have hundreds of millions of players when they actually mean hundreds of millions of downloads.

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