Baine vs Sylvanas

[Grazrug]

the bold. the races of the horde lacked the luxury to really have a unified sense of morals, they lacked the manpower to really hold their own in the world. literally every faction comprising the whole of the horde was pushed to the brink by something and those who fell under the banner of the horde were the main reason the respective parts didn't get scattered to the wind.

It's an odd thing to note that the time they actually have a chance to hold their own, the alliance immediately starts moving to try and prevent it rather than bother using diplomacy. Yes, we as players are aware of how shady various parties are... the characters aren't so blessed with our understanding...

but this just makes it to vague to determine who's morally worse so lets just make sure the would be under dogs are using every underhanded trick in teh book and enslaving/killing everything in their wake, and don't forget to adorn them with as many edgelord skull outfits as possible, to drive home who is the real evil side to make our prejudiced aggression look justified.

Betraying any trust you have in your leadership/chain of command so you feel good is fine if it's for the benefit of the good guys!

Are you agreeing with me or is this sarcasm?

[Aleksej89]

I would absolutely want sylvanas to die and be erased from lore - but as a banshee/ghost/thing she would be hard to defeat by a warrior.

Especially a living person due to all the possession and plague shite she does so probably a different class would have to challenge her (priest, druid, something magicky).

[Combatbutler]

Lor'themar for Warchief!

That is pretty much a death sentence

OT

I'd rather see both gone for various reasons to be honest

[Fetus Rex]

Sylvanas. I dislike her but at least her actions are understandable and fine. Baine, like Saurfang is a double traitor and should be put down.

[Dalheim]

Sylvanas. I dislike her but at least her actions are understandable and fine. Baine, like Saurfang is a double traitor and should be put down.

I'd rather have 2 traitors than a leader who willingly kill and raises her own soldiers.

[Syegfryed]

Lor'themar for Warchief!

Yes, like another elf would make things better or fix the mess, i think we learn a lesson already hun?

[Syegfryed]

We did not have an elf Warchief. Sylvanas is not an elf, she is undead.

knife ear, egocentric, yes, elf, undead elf but still elf

[Fetus Rex]

I'd rather have 2 traitors than a leader who willingly kill and raises her own soldiers.

All good leaders d that. Some degree of loses are acceptable. Meatshield is a thing for a reason. Also raising them is a good thing, new chance.

[Dalheim]

All good leaders d that. Some degree of loses are acceptable. Meatshield is a thing for a reason. Also raising them is a good thing, new chance.

There is a difference with killing them on purpose by the blight. Raising them against their will is not a good thing.

- - - Updated - - -

We did not have an elf Warchief. Sylvanas is not an elf, she is undead.

An undead elf.

[Super Dickmann]

There's really nothing that can be said in Baine's defense. Not even the desperate flailing that "Oh, she killed Horde troops" is viable anymore, because Baine does the same, except he doesn't do it with their understanding and for visible tactical gain, but for no benefit other than freeing a PoW and covertly trafficking him to the Alliance. Not only is putting him in prison in this context completely justified, but it's in fact massively lenient. Any modern military would have a soldier who did this executed. Sadly, we have to make due with keeping him in prison for a patch. The Night of the Long Burger needs some work put into it.

[Kwento]

It’s like choosing between a piece of shit and a puddle of barf. Still, anything is better then Sylvanas.

[Nerovar]

Funny, because most of the Horde players I know don't like her at all. They joined the Horde for the "noble savages" theme, not to be genocidal monsters.

Why can't they be noble genocidal savage monsters? It's not all black and white.

The Night of the Long Burger needs some work put into it.

Godwin on page 3. Neat.

[Nathanyel]

[Thrall's] pre wow characteristics are not defined by putting the interests of your enemy first, and your own faction last. The horde was founded upon providing a strong arm for the outcasts of Azeroth, that got wronged by the alliance, or have nowhere else to go. Nothing to do with morals.

That's where your fallacy lies, a benefit for the Horde does not have to be a loss for the Alliance. Thrall fought Humans to get the Orcs out of Lordaeron, but once they were free on Kalimdor, he worked with Jaina's fugitives and the NElves against the actual threat.

Saurfang was for the War of the Thorns, because it was intended as a short conflict that would bring about complete Horde control over Kalimdor, with hostages in Darnassus ensuring that the Alliance doesn't retaliate.
Sylvanas throws that away, for no good reason (to the other races of the Horde)
She acts 'crazy', provoking a long conflict whose only 'benefit' could be creating more corpses to raise.
Other than that, the Horde does not have a clear advantage in the war of BfA, unlike the War of the Thorns. So, it can be argued that this whole thing is not beneficial for the Horde, and ending it would be preferable, even if this meant saying "my bad" and signing a peace treaty (which, again, was kinda the point of the War of the Thorns, only that the Horde would've been in a more dominant position)
Acting to the interests of your people and the Horde itself means acting against the Warchief, so that's technically treason, but you didn't hear many players call Vol'jin a traitor during MoP.

However, I agree with the mentions that Baine's motivations are improperly explained, but that's story neglect, not a character flaw.

[Wildberry]

I REALLY hope after Sylvanas turns into a raid boss that Baine takes mantle of Warchief. To see the tears from Garrosh loyalists and bloodthirsty orcs will be priceless.

>Rooting for a shit story to own the Horde

[Aeula]

I hate Sylvanas.

But I hate Baine and his Alliance more. So Baine can go drop the soap in prison, since I'm prevented from killing him.

[Super Dickmann]

Saurfang was for the War of the Thorns, because it was intended as a short conflict that would bring about complete Horde control over Kalimdor, with hostages in Darnassus ensuring that the Alliance doesn't retaliate.
Sylvanas throws that away, for no good reason (to the other races of the Horde)
She acts 'crazy', provoking a long conflict whose only 'benefit' could be creating more corpses to raise.
Other than that, the Horde does not have a clear advantage in the war of BfA, unlike the War of the Thorns. So, it can be argued that this whole thing is not beneficial for the Horde, and ending it would be preferable, even if this meant saying "my bad" and signing a peace treaty (which, again, was kinda the point of the War of the Thorns, only that the Horde would've been in a more dominant position)
Acting to the interests of your people and the Horde itself means acting against the Warchief, so that's technically treason, but you didn't hear many players call Vol'jin a traitor during MoP.

There's no technical about, it is treason and the notion that it's for the benefit of Baine's people is flatly wrong. The main reason is because going "my bad", isn't an option. When you start the conflict in your enemy's eyes by barging into his territory, offing hundreds of his own with assassins unannounced before you steamroll through it, you're already in deep shit in terms of extricating yourself from a longer war. When you do that and then follow it up with genocide, you make it impossible unless you're on the winning side, because anyone sitting on the other side of the table for you after you're on the losing side and started the war with genocide would fuck you and your organisation beyond repair to ensure this never happens again. Continuing the war is preferable in terms of game theory, as it's the only option where you're not guaranteed to lose it all.

But as regards Baine, there is simply no ground to say that he offs those Horde troops and frees Derek to benefit the tauren. Firstly just by virtue of his track record, where the deaths of tauren were completely irrelevant to him both when he exiled those seeking vengeance for Taurajo and later when they were raised in the Battle for Lordaeron, but also just by what he says. He doesn't bring up this at all. To him this is a moral stand to free Jaina's brother, the consequences be damned. And he treats those Horde soldiers with far more ferocity than he did say, his father's murderer and her tribe after their takeover of Thunder Bluff or the quillboar, who he feeds water and food so they can later slaughter his people. Baine is pond scum.

@Nerevar

It's a noblesavage Godwin, so it's fine.

[Grazrug]

That's where your fallacy lies, a benefit for the Horde does not have to be a loss for the Alliance. Thrall fought Humans to get the Orcs out of Lordaeron, but once they were free on Kalimdor, he worked with Jaina's fugitives and the NElves against the actual threat.

Saurfang was for the War of the Thorns, because it was intended as a short conflict that would bring about complete Horde control over Kalimdor, with hostages in Darnassus ensuring that the Alliance doesn't retaliate.
Sylvanas throws that away, for no good reason (to the other races of the Horde)
She acts 'crazy', provoking a long conflict whose only 'benefit' could be creating more corpses to raise.
Other than that, the Horde does not have a clear advantage in the war of BfA, unlike the War of the Thorns. So, it can be argued that this whole thing is not beneficial for the Horde, and ending it would be preferable, even if this meant saying "my bad" and signing a peace treaty (which, again, was kinda the point of the War of the Thorns, only that the Horde would've been in a more dominant position)
Acting to the interests of your people and the Horde itself means acting against the Warchief, so that's technically treason, but you didn't hear many players call Vol'jin a traitor during MoP.

However, I agree with the mentions that Baine's motivations are improperly explained, but that's story neglect, not a character flaw.

If you root for your team to fail and try to negotiate crappy terms upon disadvantage you are a traitor, period. Sylvanas is treating Baine better than he actually deserves it, but it's overlooked because the anti train is too strong at this point. As Dickman said Baine lost all credibility for reasoning when he did the same thing people accuse sylvanas of. Killing your fellow hordies. He is an unsavable character.

[Harbour]

>Rooting for a shit story to own the Horde

We have shitty story that owns the Horde now though. It won't get worse.

[Jshadowhunter]

>Rooting for a shit story to own the Horde

Pretty much clawing the face to spite the nose.

- - - Updated - - -

We have a shitty story that owns the Horde now though. It won't get worse.

It will.
We already have a retcon this patch that nullifies the Silverpine storyline.

[Super Dickmann]

We have shitty story that owns the Horde now though. It won't get worse.

It can always get worse. Case in point, Baine taking over.