Heroic cleared in few hours after release ...

[Heladys]

Wait, *heroic* was cleared too fast? That's not even a thing.

The only thing that will challenge top tier raiders to any extent is mythic and that's not open. Obviously they're gonna run heroic this week to get their feet wet and get their strats sorted.

[Jazzhands]

The raid is too hard... people quit. The raid is too easy... people quit. WoW's problem is not the difficulty of the raid itself. we have normal, hc, mythic and and that doesn't keep players staying for more than a month after the expansion is released anyway. I would argue that a more difficult raid is better overall if you want people to stay in the game, but the main reason people leave the game early is lack of depth and lore. Having multiple difficulties of the same boss just doesn't make sense lore wise and it takes away the immersive part of the game completely. You are right original Naxx was attempted by few people, but it is still more remembered among the community, even people who didn't set their foot in there or only tried instructor a few times(like me) than say HoF or DS. More does not always equal better.

Different difficulties solve the too easy or too hard problem. It gives everyone the level they want to push to. People do not rise to the occasion, if they aren't already motivated to do so then a raid with some gear they don't need certainly won't do it. People at all different levels play this game, and raiding is the end game, gating 90% of the population from it is simply stupid.

People also quit for a ton of different reasons, claiming you know the main reason why is just silly. I stopped playing because classes were shit, not for lore or depth.

Also, lore wise there aren't multiple difficulties. If you can't separate a game mechanic from lore, that's on you.

Let's just say they did go back to one difficulty. It's definitely not going to be mythic level, so there goes that crowd. It likely won't be heroic either, because that's too hard for most. We'd likely get something a in between normal and heroic, which... would kind of suck. The LFR crowd is also gone now, because pugging in this game is garbage compared to most MMOs I've played, and even normal mode is too hard for most of them. Most casual guilds that clear normal likely won't be able to complete the tier due to end bosses being closer to heroic than normal because of difficulty curves. And heroic raiders would likely be bored.

A single difficulty would literally ruin raiding for pretty much everyone. There is no compromise that could make everyone happy and keep participation levels where they are.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone who would cut content for low participation doesn't understand why mmos have the grasp they do on people. There is always something to drive for not just a different difficulty I honestly think the biggest reason mmos in general are dying is there isn't that feeling anymore. They are supposed to be rpgs you gradually build your character by fighting tougher and tougher challenges. Not casinos that you get a 400 ilvl peace for doing content you can basically afk through.

Raiding was never popular until WoTLK, but even then it almost died due to low participation, LFR literally saved raiding. You have to realize that Blizzard, even old Blizzard, is a company that needs to make money to continue making content and games. If they're dedicating tons of resources to something very few people participated in, then it's only logical to cut it and use those resources for something potentially better. That's simply how business works.

[RobertMugabe]

The raid was literally released 5 hours ago and it has already been completed on heroic ....

Before you said "mythic mode is the only mode that counts" let me debunk that argument by saying majority of playerbase will be fighting heroic, not mythic.... And to see how heroic can be cleared with little effort within 5 hours kind of demotivates my friends from resubbing. I guess they will wait to see what the next raid has to offer.

Proof : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/368202096

When was the last time when heroic(=old normal mode) wasn't cleared on like day 1? AFAIK never since it's been added to the game in 3.2

So your entire thread is pretty stupid if you ask me

[Sanguinerd]

Maybe Blizzard should stop letting people test their raids so it won't be cleared as fast...

Atleast then Poe will have one less thing to complain about.

[Unforgivenn]

wtf..

method killed 2 boss on heroic with pure melee setup lol (only dk (2 all dps), pallys (7 - 1 tank 1 dps and 5 healers) and 8 warriors ( 7 dps 1 tank)

[ohwell]

This happens like every tier except Hellfire Citadel.

Also I find it hilarious that this raid is too easy for you now that other people that aren't you have cleared it.

I mean Ulduar took at least 3 days not counting Hard Modes.

[deadman1]

Every raid someone says this same shit ... it's heroic
You didn't do it.
Get over it.

[ydraw]

I mean Ulduar took at least 3 days not counting Hard Modes.

Ulduar was the last raid ever released that only had 1 difficulty level.

[Kor]

Raiding was never popular until WoTLK, but even then it almost died due to low participation.

Source: Your ass

Raiding had plenty of participation in WotLK thanks to accessible, puggable 10 man raiding for all raid tiers. It was Cataclysm that hurt raid participation due to Blizzard stupidly bumping up the difficulty of 10 mans to extreme levels compared to the previous expansion.

Even then LFR was nothing more than a rushed, bandaid fix to that problem Cata created. The introduction of Flex/Normal in 5.4 was the real, long term solution and Blizzard should have had the balls to remove LFR after that.

[Axaion]

implying they havent tested the fights on ptr

PTR really ruins these things.

[Pu3Ho]

Different difficulties solve the too easy or too hard problem. It gives everyone the level they want to push to. People do not rise to the occasion, if they aren't already motivated to do so then a raid with some gear they don't need certainly won't do it. People at all different levels play this game, and raiding is the end game, gating 90% of the population from it is simply stupid.

People also quit for a ton of different reasons, claiming you know the main reason why is just silly. I stopped playing because classes were shit, not for lore or depth.

Also, lore wise there aren't multiple difficulties. If you can't separate a game mechanic from lore, that's on you.

Let's just say they did go back to one difficulty. It's definitely not going to be mythic level, so there goes that crowd. It likely won't be heroic either, because that's too hard for most. We'd likely get something a in between normal and heroic, which... would kind of suck. The LFR crowd is also gone now, because pugging in this game is garbage compared to most MMOs I've played, and even normal mode is too hard for most of them. Most casual guilds that clear normal likely won't be able to complete the tier due to end bosses being closer to heroic than normal because of difficulty curves. And heroic raiders would likely be bored.

A single difficulty would literally ruin raiding for pretty much everyone. There is no compromise that could make everyone happy and keep participation levels where they are.

- - - Updated - - -


Raiding was never popular until WoTLK, but even then it almost died due to low participation, LFR literally saved raiding. You have to realize that Blizzard, even old Blizzard, is a company that needs to make money to continue making content and games. If they're dedicating tons of resources to something very few people participated in, then it's only logical to cut it and use those resources for something potentially better. That's simply how business works.

Nice BULLSHIT you wrote, sadly it's completely untrue In patch 4.0 we had 81k of groups kill at least 1 boss in normal difficulty. In MoP's 5.0.3 it was ~53k, in WoD it was less than 30k, in Legion it was 78k. So yeah "Raiding before LFR wasn't popular" /s, and now BFA isn't popular at all(2m of subs lol).

[Jazzhands]

Nice BULLSHIT you wrote, sadly it's completely untrue In patch 4.0 we had 81k of groups kill at least 1 boss in normal difficulty. In MoP's 5.0.3 it was ~53k, in WoD it was less than 30k, in Legion it was 78k. So yeah "Raiding before LFR wasn't popular" /s, and now BFA isn't popular at all(2m of subs lol).

Reading is difficult. I didn't say it wasn't popular before LFR, I said it wasn't popular until WoTLK.

I'm rather curious about your source, but hey, let's assume your numbers are correct. 81k groups. Lets assume 75% 25 man, 25% 10 man. I'd actually figure 10 man was more popular due to being easier, but hey, you didn't give me specifics.

81,000 groups, so 20,250x10 man groups and 60,750x25 man groups. 202,500+1,518,750 = 1,721,250. 1.72 Million is a decent chunk of people. No doubt.

But, in 4.0, WoW was at it's height right after WoTLK. Roughly 12 million active players if I remember right. And with WoTLK being the most accessible raid ever, a lot of people were likely pumped for the new raids, fresh off killing the LK for the 100th time and ready to slaughter some new shit.

But... 1.72 million is a mere 14.3% of the population. That's the percentage of the population who killed the first boss on normal, not even the last, after the expansion that sort of kick started raiding, according to your own numbers. That's not very good. It'd be even less for final bosses.

Does your source have data on pugs? LFR? I thought you might be using WoWprogress, but the highest killed first boss in T11 was Magmaw, with much less than 81k kills. According to WoWprogress, a mere 4395 guilds killed Magmaw normal 25, and a staggering 60390 cleared it on 10 man. I don't have to do the math there to tell you that the participation % is a bit lower than the 14% from your "numbers". Of course, this is only guilds, not pugs or anything else. If you can show me some better info I'd love it.

[Osmeric]

Jazzhands: the 81K figure probably didn't include China at that point, but the 12M total did.

[Jazzhands]

Jazzhands: the 81K figure probably didn't include China at that point, but the 12M total did.

It also doesn't include things like pugs. We as players have no way of knowing participation, so throwing out some random thing like "81k groups" was dumb, but I broke it down anyways to show that his number he presented to show raiding was popular actually just showed that it wasn't, even when it was at one of it's likely highest point. At least WoWprogress has some actual data behind it that come's directly from Blizzard via the armory, but his numbers don't match up to what WoWprogress shows, so I have no idea what he's using.

Way back in like 2012 or something, Ion literally said that LFR justifies raids, and compares the few thousand who saw KT to the millions who saw Deathwing, and even said it was the reason MoP's first tier had 18 bosses.

In fact, here it is. http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/...ine-Blue-Posts

People like to shit on LFR and talk about how it's made people lazy, but it likely hasn't pulled many people away from raiding unless they were already drifting away for other reasons. People burn out. I played really hardcore in Vanilla through Cata, and now I just like to take it easy. LFR gives me a way to see the bosses, even if it is a bit boring, but it's better than nothing, and I don't have to put up with pugs, I just switch the chat box off when someone starts acting like a douche.

[Kor]

People like to shit on LFR and talk about how it's made people lazy, but it likely hasn't pulled many people away from raiding unless they were already drifting away for other reasons. People burn out. I played really hardcore in Vanilla through Cata, and now I just like to take it easy. LFR gives me a way to see the bosses, even if it is a bit boring, but it's better than nothing, and I don't have to put up with pugs, I just switch the chat box off when someone starts acting like a douche.

Blizzard introducted a proper raiding mode for those burned out former hardcores like yourself in 5.4 with flex/normal difficulty. Which is as far removed from hardcore as it can possibly be while still actually not being a soulless pathetic mockery of "content" like LFR. There's no reason for LFR to exist any longer. It's even been invalidated as a source of gear progession thanks to emissary rewards, invasion rewards and warfronts.

[Temp name]

Blizzard introducted a proper raiding mode for those burned out former hardcores like yourself in 5.4 with flex/normal difficulty. Which is as far removed from hardcore as it can possibly be while still actually not being a soulless pathetic mockery of "content" like LFR. There's no reason for LFR to exist any longer. It's even been invalidated as a source of gear progession thanks to emissary rewards, invasion rewards and warfronts.

Most people still don't do normal/flex exactly because it's not a "soulless pathetic mockery". LFR is easy, and lets you experience the content.

Most players are fucking garbage and have no intention of getting better. People on MMO-C skew very heavily hardcore. People on the official forums skew hardcore too, though not as much. Most of the playerbase doesn't play for hours on end.

[Jazzhands]

Blizzard introducted a proper raiding mode for those burned out former hardcores like yourself in 5.4 with flex/normal difficulty. Which is as far removed from hardcore as it can possibly be while still actually not being a soulless pathetic mockery of "content" like LFR. There's no reason for LFR to exist any longer. It's even been invalidated as a source of gear progession thanks to emissary rewards, invasion rewards and warfronts.

Flex/Normal still requires either a guild with commitment or pugs, neither of which I'm interested in. I have a guild of friends and we don't raid anymore (we did heroic content in Wotlk when I joined, so I've been a hardcore raider), and 9/10 times if you aren't in an overgeared (which I won't be for obvious reasons) pug it's going to end poorly and waste a ton of time. LFR eliminates all those issues, and I get worse gear for less effort, which is the trade off. I might get 1-2 nice things with titanforge, but that's rare, likely no one is ever going to have a full LFR titanforged set, and even if they did, how does that effect you?

How exactly does LFR detract from the game other than your own personal issues about it being a "mockery" of content? Wow has difficult content for those who want it and an easier version for those who don't. Why does it have to be one way or another? What's gained? Some people aren't interested in getting better, some are, and both people have a way to raid right now. Why remove that?

Wow is also a game with a lot of lore, and raids are the culmination of that. Not everyone has the time to even do pugs let alone weekly raiding.

[suprep]

The raid was literally released 5 hours ago and it has already been completed on heroic ....

Before you said "mythic mode is the only mode that counts" let me debunk that argument by saying majority of playerbase will be fighting heroic, not mythic.... And to see how heroic can be cleared with little effort within 5 hours kind of demotivates my friends from resubbing. I guess they will wait to see what the next raid has to offer.

Proof : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/368202096

I don't have an active sub for a long time now but just wanted to say that I'm looking forward to your friends subbing and clearing it within 5 hours, you said it yourself, "majority of playerbase", this isn't your majority player base as you mentioned that cleared it (hint, they're mythic raiders that cleared it). I hope you read your own posts before writing them.

[quite an expert in wow]

Bookmarked for mockery.

seems you're the one getting mocked now

[Barnabas]

Yeah that less than 9% have cleared means it's super fucking easy? Threads like these are dumb.