“Paper tank”?

[Monolithi]

Im playing resto shaman and had really mixed experiences with tanks in M+.
I often think it is me who is the problem in some M+ runs, but then again I meet some tanks who are really easy to heal at same ilvl, same m+ dungeon, level and affixes.
Had DH tank in AD 9+ whose HP tanked to zero in like two gcds. Also had pally tank on same boss and same trash, whose HP just couldnt go lower than 60%.
I cant always figure out is it tanks not using def cds and heals or is it me not using proper spells in some moments.

All I know is Im spamming Healing Surge on tank and his HP is still going down to zero, and its not necrotic week. Sure, sometimes I need to use one gcd for odd dps who needs heal. And then, tank start accusing me for being trash healer, dps take his side and Im starting to become nervous and make an error.
Next run, same m+, new group, we 2chest it and tank is telling me “nice healing” at the end.

So, where is the problem, is it me or tank or whole group? What do people mean when they say “paper tank”?
Not to mention some groups play like quacking and bursting isnt their job to take care of....

[gioderpington]

I noticed this with dk tanks in time-walking, figured it was just time-walking tho. My best guess is that dk tanks are not using cds. They are the most cooldown reliant and have tons of consistent cool downs to use. Whereas pallies and warriors have a more consistent "manage these buffs on yourself and youre golden";kinda same with monks.
It could be the case that some dk tanks got lazy from being OP in 8.0 but now that the game has gotten a bit tougher (to accommodate new max ilvl) that they are forgetting cds.
This is anecdotal evidence though. Could of been the case that our particular dk tanks just sucked and they were like that since the start.

[Loosecannon]

I noticed this with dk tanks in time-walking, figured it was just time-walking tho. My best guess is that dk tanks are not using cds. They are the most cooldown reliant and have tons of consistent cool downs to use. Whereas pallies and warriors have a more consistent "manage these buffs on yourself and youre golden";kinda same with monks.
It could be the case that some dk tanks got lazy from being OP in 8.0 but now that the game has gotten a bit tougher (to accommodate new max ilvl) that they are forgetting cds.
This is anecdotal evidence though. Could of been the case that our particular dk tanks just sucked and they were like that since the start.

In timewalking there's a chance that they haven't done TW since they made it slightly less faceroll. I went from being able to pull half a dungeon and exploding everything to having double pulls be dangerous after the last ilvl squish.

[amaze123]

Addons like Details show you what happend in the last seconds before death. You can check that and decide for yourself if you could have prevented that death or not. If you do not go higher than 10 you will find alot of "tanks" which are dps main and just tank for one dungeon to get their weekly done. They do not have alot tank experience and probably will make alot of mistakes. The next times you have a nice runs you should just add the tanks or the dps, build yourself a m+ friendlist and run with them instead of pug.

[XDurionX]

Blood DKs have a binary healt bar, full or dead. People vastly overestimate them due to their utility in m+, but at their core, they really arent very good. And a lot of bad players flock to DK since they were told they were good.

[McFuu]

Im playing resto shaman and had really mixed experiences with tanks in M+.
I often think it is me who is the problem in some M+ runs, but then again I meet some tanks who are really easy to heal at same ilvl, same m+ dungeon, level and affixes.
Had DH tank in AD 9+ whose HP tanked to zero in like two gcds. Also had pally tank on same boss and same trash, whose HP just couldnt go lower than 60%.
I cant always figure out is it tanks not using def cds and heals or is it me not using proper spells in some moments.

All I know is Im spamming Healing Surge on tank and his HP is still going down to zero, and its not necrotic week. Sure, sometimes I need to use one gcd for odd dps who needs heal. And then, tank start accusing me for being trash healer, dps take his side and Im starting to become nervous and make an error.
Next run, same m+, new group, we 2chest it and tank is telling me “nice healing” at the end.

So, where is the problem, is it me or tank or whole group? What do people mean when they say “paper tank”?
Not to mention some groups play like quacking and bursting isnt their job to take care of....

As both a DH tank and a Paladin Tank; DH tanks always... Always need to use mitigation in higher keys. If they don't have a useful mitigation available, they should be kiting. Chances are you ran into a bad DH tank. Paladin is similar in how you weave your mitigation through the fight, but when mitigation is down you still have a shield, and a decently high natural block chance. DH doesn't have that, nor the armor, and gets crushed while not mitigating.
DH isn't a face roll tank unless you really understand how they play.

[gioderpington]

In timewalking there's a chance that they haven't done TW since they made it slightly less faceroll. I went from being able to pull half a dungeon and exploding everything to having double pulls be dangerous after the last ilvl squish.

Ya I had a feeling that was part of it. Felt really bad when I convinced the tank to pull two-three groups at a time like 3 times throughout the dungeon and they just went 100-0 in like 2 seconds flat. Still (After that blood dk left in frustration) we got a prot pally who could pull two groups at a time and seemed fine. Might be the stats for parry are off in timewalking and block is just more effective when everything is a consistent ilvl and damage.

[Super Kami Dende]

Some DH's just simply don't know how to reduce incoming Damage, they only know how to heal it back. Meaning any fight they get in that has heavy burst from Enemies will often result in a Death/Last Resort Proc.

[Ingam]

Yeah. It's a rough week for people returning. First as a healer people don't really understand bursting. They dont get that if you do 2 or three packs where stacks get up to 7 you will run out of cooldowns.

But I feel like when I can't heal a tank it's often because I'm wasting time healing do who are taking damage when they shouldn't. During some packs you don't have the luxury of switch targets to heal idiots when the tank is getting blasted. I'm thinking the pulls before the 2nd boss of AD. If they are standing for more than 1 tick in the good your chain heal plus bursting is just not gonna cover it. People also just struggle with tanking more now, my suggestion is always friend good tanks next week msg them with your stone and they will prolly be happy.

Second know what weeks suck. As a shaman healer quaking bursting is just not my week, I did every dng on 6 fine but quaking really destroys my heals with bursting so I just dps as ele for those stones. So many ppl are not treating the stones like they are harder trying to face tank instead of kite like they would if it was a 10 or 11 stone. Finally. Go look at the logs for the best runs. The heals are pulling shit numbers that's because the dps are not acting idiotic standing in goo. So powerful on laugh at ppl when call you trash and just hop into the next group while your flask is still up lol.

[McFuu]

Blood DKs have a binary healt bar, full or dead. People vastly overestimate them due to their utility in m+, but at their core, they really arent very good. And a lot of bad players flock to DK since they were told they were good.

If I were to make a list of easy to use tanks for bad/new tanks:
Monk - by existing they mitigate
Druid - mitigate with lots of health and can basically forget to mitigate the first hit, but gain significant use from mitigation after first hit.
Warrior/Paladin - had to really split these in ease of use vs skill. Warrior have way more mitigation to maintain some kind of damage reduction indefinitely, they lack a heal. Where as Paladin can weave between mitigating, and then healing, then mitigating, so on. I see these about the same, I would say warrior might be slightly easier because of leap, dual charge on fast cool down. But this is for new/bad tanks, so more advanced tank tricks aren't going to be used.
DH - they are decently tough with cool downs up, but if the person forgets or let's it do without a 5 orb heal up etc... They get crushed.
DK - basically requires fight knowledge, wasting energy to heal 1 second too early might mean straight death. I find DK is slightly tougher than DH while not mitigating, but that's if you stack crit for the parry (or better a one min crit trinket)

[cparle87]

In timewalking there's a chance that they haven't done TW since they made it slightly less faceroll. I went from being able to pull half a dungeon and exploding everything to having double pulls be dangerous after the last ilvl squish.

I've always treated timewalkings as slightly more dangerous than regular mythics, since you have that uncertain quality. If you know a mob has a strong burst move, or a stun, then chain pulling might not be wise, etc.

[Ebalina]

If I were to make a list of easy to use tanks for bad/new tanks:
Monk - by existing they mitigate
Druid - mitigate with lots of health and can basically forget to mitigate the first hit, but gain significant use from mitigation after first hit.
Warrior/Paladin - had to really split these in ease of use vs skill. Warrior have way more mitigation to maintain some kind of damage reduction indefinitely, they lack a heal. Where as Paladin can weave between mitigating, and then healing, then mitigating, so on. I see these about the same, I would say warrior might be slightly easier because of leap, dual charge on fast cool down. But this is for new/bad tanks, so more advanced tank tricks aren't going to be used.
DH - they are decently tough with cool downs up, but if the person forgets or let's it do without a 5 orb heal up etc... They get crushed.
DK - basically requires fight knowledge, wasting energy to heal 1 second too early might mean straight death. I find DK is slightly tougher than DH while not mitigating, but that's if you stack crit for the parry (or better a one min crit trinket)

Ahahahahaha oh lord.
Man mmo keeps on delivering.

Druid/DH at the moment are the worst 2 tanks for any content.
Druid does not mitigate anything with health anymore because of how shitty mastery is for them.
DH cant do jack shit when they run out of spikes/meta they get destroyed especially in fortified weeks in m+ so you have to kite.
DK runs to the same problem at times in high keys depending on how fast u blast the packs u pull but it has more cd's and just heals back tons of the dmg even without use of a major cd vp/ibf/ams and so on and can actually kite properly if they run the 70% on d&c talent dk is just way more durable has more armor and more utility then a dh.

Paladins/Warriors should be gods at the moment in high keys but dk's are in generally used most due to the sheep following trends(dont get me wrong dk is still strong way way strong) just that dk aoe grip/bone armor yada yada follow the meta.

[McFuu]

Ahahahahaha oh lord.
Man mmo keeps on delivering.

Druid/DH at the moment are the worst 2 tanks for any content.
Druid does not mitigate anything with health anymore because of how shitty mastery is for them.
DH cant do jack shit when they run out of spikes/meta they get destroyed especially in fortified weeks in m+ so you have to kite.
DK runs to the same problem at times in high keys depending on how fast u blast the packs u pull but it has more cd's and just heals back tons of the dmg even without use of a major cd vp/ibf/ams and so on and can actually kite properly if they run the 70% on d&c talent dk is just way more durable has more armor and more utility then a dh.

Paladins/Warriors should be gods at the moment in high keys but dk's are in generally used most due to the sheep following trends(dont get me wrong dk is still strong way way strong) just that dk aoe grip/bone armor yada yada follow the meta.

I'm talking from an ease of use new/bad tank stand point. Not high mythic+ or hc/mythic progression. From a straight up ease of use vs using the maximum the class offers.
And I am agreeing with everything you say. I think DK gets used because of their healing, it takes a workload from the healer, serves a dual purpose. Paladins can get to ridiculous "healing" but it requires specific Azerite talents.
DH are pretty effective when you have high haste, you have the aura+armor Azerite, SS shield Azerite, they can be decent, add that with the easy kiting, and... Librams... I forgot the name of the seals on the floor abilities. DH is capable of a lot, but it requires a lot of prep and always needing a kiting path for groups. They do a shit ton of damage, which is there big popularity boon.

Druid, health is still important, if you miss the first part of an ability you can still pop the healing ability and get a fair amount of health back. They are just easy to play is what I'm getting at, for a new /bad player they are more forgiving in lower content. They lack the tools for high end content and their bad itemization.

[dirtybrew]

Blood DKs have a binary healt bar, full or dead. People vastly overestimate them due to their utility in m+, but at their core, they really arent very good. And a lot of bad players flock to DK since they were told they were good.

Their utility is what makes them great in M+. From a purely defensive standpoint they have never been the best.