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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    He's completely wrong, nothing can be done, and IMHO people need to get this "difficult content and risk failure" concept out of their heads. The idea of a skill gap being a good thing, the idea of making things hard to get people to try harder at them, all of these things are generally wrong and have been shown to be wrong time and time again and typically only serve to pander to this concept that people should always try to be better than others so they feel that they are superior.
    tell me what is good about doing the most renowned fighting move in the gaming history by just doing button smash or just like the guy demonstrating in the video a Merengue Beat. Just watch until 1:30 mark. You will not lose your precious time. It is always amazing to watch daigo umehara pulling that move.



    Gaming has always given me a sense of accomplishment, a satisfaction. A sense that makes me aware that I am better or worse than others. I always take up the challenge. By all means I am a scrub compared to mythic raiders or high profile players but still a better scrub.

  2. #202
    The game has become a solo player, MAU driven, excessive RNG, overengineered s***fest! Now, if you want to blame someone then you should blame the developers and the upper management.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    In the spirit of making games more and more accessible, the non-stop removal of entry levels to surpass sure is changing how games are being designed. Games rarely dare to challenge their players, because they are just going to complain about it. This is a major reason why any content Blizzard releases nowadays is consumed in 1-2 weeks, even by casual players. There are no dangerous enemies, there are no gear checks outside of heroic/mythic raids or M+.
    A new island is released and you can be certain it's a cakewalk for any character that has spent at least 24 hours the last 2 months gathering free gear.

    WoW will always keep giving more things to those who want to grind, want to commit, and want to do anything they can to get that tiny little edge... but the ratio of time invested and reward has already passed the limit. Unless you progression raid, there's no point in grinding anything, because in the next update you're going to be showered with free loot that beats everything you have anyway.

    If what games used to be was Diablo 2, modern games are Diablo 3. As someone who has had an account pretty much active since january 2006, what has happened is akin to being heavily invested in Magic The Gathering and seeing it turn into Hearthstone. That doesn't mean Hearthstone is a bad game, but it has removed all forms of depth for accessibility for the casual, 30 min / day players.

    And I am amazed that people somehow don't get more annoyed that non-premade raid/high m+ content is as insultingly easy at it is. Do you play all other games with Godmode on as well I wonder?

    You can make games easier, more accessible, easier to get into. You can keep making it faster and easier so that anyone can within a dozen or so hours can jump into the prime content the game has to offer... but they won't stay for long. Now, you have to play other games to at least find an even bare-minimum amount of challenge as a solo player. Just a gigantic smörgåsbord of loot-pinatas firing gear at you. That at least is BFA in a nutshell. Designed for 2 groups of people, casual players who want to play no more than 2-3 hours / week, and heroic/mythic progression raiders.

    WoW devs should all take a week off and play Divinity Original Sin 2, and maybe they'll remember that having a good curve in challenge and rewards, means that players will (yes, they will) be more inclined to learn, improve andtry again. Or they can decide that their character(s) are currently too weak, go somewhere else and gather Exp and better gear, and come back later. That is a core RPG element that WoW has seemingly abandoned.

    Knowing you may lose is what gives games excitement. There's nothing fun or enjoyable (for a long period of time anyway) about games if you know you're always going to win. It is f'ing embarrassing from a game design PoV to see what the WoW devs are doing. It's as if they genuinely think making all non-raid content braindead easy keeps players interested in the grinds they "need to do" so they can progress in raids. I am not going to pretend like I am some sort of representative of the part of the community that doesn't raid, but it's like seeing people who can't even tell *why* they're bored, as they repeat the same unfailable content over and over.
    An excellent post!

  3. #203
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    I'll confess I felt a little insulted as i had always considered myself a serious or hardcore gamer, I certainly put in a lot of hours. But by his definition I'm only a filthy casual because I don't raid mythic. I certainly have no fear of failure.

    I agree with you that nothing can be done, catering to one demographic, even if its the hardcore, is a recipe for failure *cough* WildStar
    Because you are older now.
    few people who have real lives have the time to put into being an insanely "hardcore" player.
    as we grow older we get less time, we need to sleep more, we need to fill our days with things like socialize, work, exercise, apointments, cook, clean, etc.
    we cant play as much, and as we get older we sorta get bored of things we used to enjoy.

    its just how human aging works, and how the world works with capatilisim and work, that well... you need to work.

    "Influencers" usually have a jaded and biased opinion... as their work is their play time... so they have more time to play games... and can usually put more time in, to be more "hardcore"


    "Casual" gamers are the insane majority, and even wow is actually the casual MMO.
    go back to 2004, look at wow compared to other MMO's.

    Wow, a death walk, and abit of gold cost to repair... alright.
    Runescape- Loss of all items but 3 upon death, better go get them before they dissapear, or in wilderness? they gone boi.
    Mapelstory- Loss of massive amounts of exp
    Everquest- all items drop to ground in a "chest" if you do not get to that chest before it despawns... goodbye forever items, others could not take them... but they could as hell gaurd them to stop you from looting it back...
    Toontown- (Yes i know, but its the last MMO i playeds back then) Loss of all gags, meaning a fair abit of currency lost. Loss of all held jellybeans, meaning fair bit of time doing minigames, and a fair bit of time left slumping around in town till you could get back to max HP to go out again, hope there is some food nearby...

    Wow was the casual MMO back then, and gaming in amongst itself is supposed to be casual.
    when did GAMING become a job, and not a hobby?
    when did it become BAD to go home, and just want to enjoy a video game?
    why is it that if someone want to get home, play a raid after work, they are WRONG because they want to enjoy their hobby?
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    I was about to respond, but this poster covered everything nicely.

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    I'm 34 and played this game for about 13 years now. See, thing is - I value my time and thankfully developers came to recognise a fact that you don't really need to spend shitton of said time doing completely mundane crap just so you can have a bit of prime time fun - which was the archaic thinking behind the old MMOs which put artificial gates and hoops on the way to actual fun content.

    I welcome the advent of the games that put fun first at expense of bullshit and genuine unfun crap like grinding 10 bear asses x 1000 so you can go ahead and kill a big bad dragon.

    That's why I like current WoW - because compared to the past - I can log in for 15 minutes a day, do my daily chores and be all ready to roll for Mythic raids no problem. Heck, I loved WoD - exactly because I could only login to actual fun part of the game - Mythic raiding and screw all the "bring 10 rat tails" part.
    In other words, you don't want an MMORPG.

  5. #205
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by In Ogres We Trust View Post
    In other words, you don't want an MMORPG.
    Minecraft is an MMORPG, atleast with a few small mods, but does that mean you need to be able to dedicate 5+ hours a day to play? nah.
    MMORPG does not mean "play 5 hours a day" it means an RPG that has lots of players all in one single "instance"
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  6. #206
    Currently mythic raids are like hundred times harder than Vanilla raids were. Vanilla was all about managing 40 people in raid, managing your consumables and managing your resistance gear farm. The fights themselves in Vanilla were mostly very basic mechanics, very simple fights. So vanilla was just macromanagement.

    Current mythic raids are all about personal responsibility, doing mechanics, communicating and trying to beat the fight itself. The boss fights themselves are challenging.

    I started playing WoW in beta, played most of Vanilla, even more during BC and so on. In all honesty I do prefer the fights themselves being difficult like it is now over farming consumables and resistance gear being half of the fight.

    Fact is, vanilla was not harder than current wow, it just required more consumable farming, vanilla required less skill, but more patience. Current WoW is more jump in do fights and jump out. Not as much investment in time, but the fights themselves require more skill, if you choose to do challenging content.

    The whole modern wow requiring less skill, classes are pruned complaining from the community is absurd. Most of the playerbase perform well below their ilvl capabilities, most fail at boss tactics on challenging difficulties, even on easier difficulties. All the PUGs I have done in Raids and M+ groups, most players do about 25% less dps what their gear allows them to do. There is a sea of tanks who don't even know how to manage their active mitigation. Not gonna talk about the knowledge of actual dungeon mechanics, because that's whole another wonderland.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Craaazyyy View Post
    well calling someone who plays solitaire a gamer is ridiculous. Also there is a clear difference between, for example, solitaire and poker/chess.. you cant compare those two.. unless ofc you compare someone who plays actual chess against other people to someone whos playing chess against the easiest AI

    if all you do is play single player casual games every once in a while you're not a gamer. Gamer is someone who is interested in games besides just playing some game or two once a week or some shit
    Until you publish your own recognised dictionary, you are wrong. A casual gamer is still a gamer. It doesn't matter if it upsets you (which is kind of sad tbh), the definition is the definition. Can the definition change? Of course it can but you individually don't get to decide. So until you get a consensus on the word gamer and add to the definition be quiet if all you have to say is "but casuals who play games different to me aren't gamers".
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    In fact, let me state that if anything is "ruining" games it's the e-sport and "competitive" or "one of the best players/guilds/etc. in the world" mentality that seems to infest everything, video game and otherwise. In my opinion, naturally.
    Agreed. Online games were better when everyone wasn't just copy pasting the same meta

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    He's completely wrong, nothing can be done, and IMHO people need to get this "difficult content and risk failure" concept out of their heads. The idea of a skill gap being a good thing, the idea of making things hard to get people to try harder at them, all of these things are generally wrong and have been shown to be wrong time and time again and typically only serve to pander to this concept that people should always try to be better than others so they feel that they are superior.
    For someone accusing others of being wrong, this sure is one of the wrongest statements i've ever read.

  10. #210
    The summary notes that the difference between casuals and hardcore players come from not how long people play, but the difficulty of the content. Current WoW is leaps and bounds harder and more complex than WoW up until Wrath at the very least.

    Such a contradictory viewpoint, isn't it?

    P.S. the most casual expansion, Wrath, is regarded as the most beloved expac in WoW history. So clearly it's not ruining every game at least?

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Torto View Post
    Aww come on now...really? You can't call someone who plays Tetris for an hour on the bus a gamer.
    Game companies are looking for people who play games, not "gamers" in your narrow sense.

    Also: No True Scotsman argument detected.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Game companies are looking for people who play games, not "gamers" in your narrow sense.

    Also: No True Scotsman argument detected.
    Would you call someone who plays mini putt putt a golfer? The term gamer is generally reserved for gaming enthusiasts, so a guy passing time playing Tetris while waiting for a train is no more a gamer than a guy buying a stamp at the post office is a stamp collector.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    The summary notes that the difference between casuals and hardcore players come from not how long people play, but the difficulty of the content. Current WoW is leaps and bounds harder and more complex than WoW up until Wrath at the very least.

    Such a contradictory viewpoint, isn't it?

    P.S. the most casual expansion, Wrath, is regarded as the most beloved expac in WoW history. So clearly it's not ruining every game at least?
    I think the point the guy in the video was trying to make is that getting into the raid itself required you to be hardcore as opposed to today where you can buy a level boost and jump into lfr in one day. I doubt he was referring to raid mechanics and the like. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I think that is where he is coming from.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    tell me what is good about doing the most renowned fighting move in the gaming history by just doing button smash or just like the guy demonstrating in the video a Merengue Beat. Just watch until 1:30 mark. You will not lose your precious time. It is always amazing to watch daigo umehara pulling that move.

    Great video. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gref View Post
    Gaming has always given me a sense of accomplishment, a satisfaction. A sense that makes me aware that I am better or worse than others. I always take up the challenge. By all means I am a scrub compared to mythic raiders or high profile players but still a better scrub.
    EA would like to know your location.

  14. #214
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    In fact, let me state that if anything is "ruining" games it's the e-sport and "competitive" or "one of the best players/guilds/etc. in the world" mentality that seems to infest everything, video game and otherwise. In my opinion, naturally.
    yes, how dare people wish to be good at something! they should all settle for mediocrity!
    O Flora, of the moon, of the dream. O Little ones, O fleeting will of the ancients. Let the hunter be safe. Let them find comfort. And let this dream, their captor, Foretell a pleasant awakening

  15. #215
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmonz View Post
    Better lets ask how many people get adressed by "hardcore content", and what justifies its creation.
    No just skip ahead and remove everything but LFR and see it crumble.

    avg players need a wakeup call on the reality of why they play, but the real casuals already know this and quit after 1 week no matter what anyway.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  16. #216
    Todays games are made for no one, not for casuals, not for semi-hardcores, not for hardcore, and not for mobile gamers either, they are just made to keep the treadmill going and money rolling in, chances are if you grew up with games you're probably still going to keep playing games even if their quality goes down(which happened very slowly which makes it less noticeable). Then theres the shady business practices like microtransactions that feed on peoples ''need'' to collect stuff, lootboxes that feed on peoples gambling ''needs'', epic hats so people can look different than others cause the base game itself doesn't give you that, and all of that in b2p/sub based games you already paid for yet for some reason you get a lot less playtime than you used to years ago from those games.

    So no, if you want to blame anyone for this shitshow its the unregulated companies abusing its consumers.

  17. #217
    @otaXephon roflmao after reading that reddit comment. Seriously, greed of ea and others disgust me and how they use word.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by zlygork View Post
    Agreed. Online games were better when everyone wasn't just copy pasting the same meta
    I don't know after playing bf, battlefield, most of the call duty and lots of moba I can say a strong group of competition helps to balance the game and change meta every while, Dota 2 is one of the best examples
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  19. #219
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    Just because you dont intend to grind in game doesnt mean youre not a gamer.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  20. #220
    He says that a hardcore gamer is someone that pushes to get that marginal increase to their character then stops at talking about LFR Raids? If he considers the entire game then BFA is WAY more hardcore than Vanilla ever was. He showed a clip of LFR G'huun and said it can be done by a public group. But by his very definition a hard core gamer would spend the time to raid Mythic. I would LOVE to see a group, even in the new gear, that can pug Mythic G'huun.

    Last I checked there was casual content in Vanilla, too. It was leveling. Casuals just can do MORE content. The highest content has only gotten harder and harder. Not easier.

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