Casual and Mobile Gamers are ruining games

[Malikath]

He's completely wrong, nothing can be done, and IMHO people need to get this "difficult content and risk failure" concept out of their heads. The idea of a skill gap being a good thing, the idea of making things hard to get people to try harder at them, all of these things are generally wrong and have been shown to be wrong time and time again and typically only serve to pander to this concept that people should always try to be better than others so they feel that they are superior.

Pfft, the sheer cognitive bias of this post is hilarious.

this is the kind of thinking the "everyone is a winnar" generation has.

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I agree with you that nothing can be done, catering to one demographic, even if its the hardcore, is a recipe for failure *cough* WildStar

same can be said of catering to casuals, as acti/bliz is currently finding out.

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Currently mythic raids are like hundred times harder than Vanilla raids were.

how the fuck would you know? you've never finished a current content mythic raid.

[Torto]

same can be said of catering to casuals, as acti/bliz is currently finding out.

Fortnite seem to be happily making billions, and that is the very definition of a casual game.

[Malikath]

Agreed. Online games were better when everyone wasn't just copy pasting the same meta

so, before the internet existed...
pro-tip: if you think your game doesn't have a META, you don't know it well enough.

[seleri]

Don't need to watch the video to tell you he's wrong.

[Malikath]

Fortnite seem to be happily making billions, and that is the very definition of a casual game.

as did PUBG, as did CoD, as did halo, popularity fades with fads as new ones come along to punish them for their failings.
meanwhile we're having a fighting game revival that's leaving the dumbed-down street fighter in the gutter in favor of a persecuted new-comer(DBFZ) and a return to form of soul caliber 6 after the missteps of SC5.
there are even rumors that DoA 6's "dumbed down mechanics" are being reverted after SF5's casualization led to the death of it's Esports scene as a serious venue.

enjoy it while it lasts, but it's obvious that mediocrity is unsustainable.

[Raven]

How is casuals ruining the game, since casuals or hardcore have more to do with the amount of time you play not on what difficulty,.

Just take streamers that play all day, some of them are really entertaining but damn they suck at the games they play.

[Torto]

as did PUBG, as did CoD, as did halo, popularity fades with fads as new ones come along to punish them for their failings.
meanwhile we're having a fighting game revival that's leaving the dumbed-down street fighter in the gutter in favor of a persecuted new-comer(DBFZ) and a return to form of soul caliber 6 after the missteps of SC5.
there are even rumors that DoA 6's "dumbed down mechanics" are being reverted after SF5's casualization led to the death of it's Esports scene as a serious venue.

enjoy it while it lasts, but it's obvious that mediocrity is unsustainable.

But if the masses demand mediocrity, a mind numbing distraction, what are the developers to do? Defy them and make hard challenging games anyway, that few can complete and even fewer will ever buy? As others have said, there are hard games out there, just not made by AAA studios.

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How is casuals ruining the game, since casuals or hardcore have more to do with the amount of time you play not on what difficulty,.

Just take streamers that play all day, some of them are really entertaining but damn they suck at the games they play.

You don't need to be good, you just need to wear tight tops that make it look like your tits are going to explode out onto the screen. Pretty much guaranteed 20k subs of hormonal teenagers.

[Malikath]

How ARE casuals ruining the game, since casuals or hardcore have more to do with the amount of time you play not on what difficulty,.

Just take streamers that play all day, some of them are really entertaining but damn they suck at the games they play.

because people conflate "casual" with the spergs who always use the flavor-of-the-month-easiest-available-class, bottom-feeding, scum that typically self-identifies as casual yet feels entitled that the game that others enjoy be ruined so that their 2 I.Q. product-of-incest brain can still do as well as someone who bothers to learn the game.
aka, the people circle-jerking with the OP in this thread as they talk about a youtube video hidden away from as many opposing opinions as possible.

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But if the masses demand mediocrity, a mind numbing distraction, what are the developers to do? Defy them and make hard challenging games anyway, that few can complete and even fewer will ever buy?

damn, how wrong can you be?

your first point is an assumption, these games catch on quick and die just as quick, that indicates that they're less developmental successes and more media sensations where prominent players determine the health of the game.
case in point, look at OW, recently it was a thriving casual play-pen, now it's getting more tumbleweeds by the day with the more prominent players either leaving or being banned.

"point" 2, dark souls, salt and sanctuary, hollow knight, Nioh(which already has a sequel being made)and several other dark souls inspired games would like to argue that their existence shows you don't know shit.

and this is the funny part, "As others have said, there are hard games out there, just not made by AAA studios" and those "others" are dumbasses who don't know shit.
team ninja isn't AAA? fromsoft isn't AAA?
CAPCOM ISN'T AAA?

[kamuimac]

as did PUBG, as did CoD, as did halo, popularity fades with fads as new ones come along to punish them for their failings.
meanwhile we're having a fighting game revival that's leaving the dumbed-down street fighter in the gutter in favor of a persecuted new-comer(DBFZ) and a return to form of soul caliber 6 after the missteps of SC5.
there are even rumors that DoA 6's "dumbed down mechanics" are being reverted after SF5's casualization led to the death of it's Esports scene as a serious venue.

enjoy it while it lasts, but it's obvious that mediocrity is unsustainable.

im sure they will wipe their tears will bilions of dollars of profit

while you will be claiming forever that "this model wont work"

[Malikath]

im sure they will wipe their tears will bilions of dollars of profit

while you will be claiming forever that "this model wont work"

I'm sorry, how many of them are being sued and legislated against right now?
how much "profit" is left when the government shuts you down for creating a gambling house?


bungie is the only studio from the above examples with a positive future, EA is looking at the force major of their profits being illegal soon with prime IP being taken away from them by it's owners, and after it's blow out PU is probably looking at bankruptcy and the unemployment line soon.

so, pray tell, where's the "bilions of dollars" profit when BF5 is still in the red?

[Deianeira]

If a "hardcore" gamer is willing to grind for minor updates, but time spent in game does not constitute one hardcore or casual, then how is grinding hardcore? From my perspective, grinding is just an excuse to keep player logging in, nothing more, unless it's a gameplay mechanic that holds the community together and shapes its politics, like exp grinding in Lineage 2. Exp & material farm spots are heavily contested by rival clans and alliances because that's what the game is about. This of course saturates over time, but that is a problem of the system that is not part of this discussion.

In WoW? I don't see why grinding is a thing, say for PvP gear. There's nothing valuable in it. It's only time spent. How is someone better and more skillfull in a game because they have just sank hours in grinding, doing the same repetitive bullshit over and over again? How do I become better by grinding classic reputations like in Silithus by just mindlessly killing mobs until the bar shows exalted? How is that skillfull and how does this equate hardcore?

Casual players do risk failure: for them (people that have no idea how their class is designed and created or having no idea on how to do a rotation), every single bit of content they do is hard. Just think of yourself when you very first played WoW. Bonus points if it was your first MMO or game in general. That does not mean that WoW was not objectively harder in the open world, because it was. That does not make it more complicated though, because it wasn't. The gameplay in Classic was deadbones basic and cannot be compared to the rotations and the sheer amount of buttons you press now, not to mention the speed in which you need to press them.

The skill gap mention is pure bullshit. There has never been more of a potential skill gap between players. Classes in classic were nothing rotation and gameplay wise versus today's classes. Your performance is measured and evaluated by everyone, knowing or not. Raid or dungeon, battleground or arena, with the last two not even existing back then. I fail to see how class design was better in classic than now.

And lastly, yes, WoW definitely makes content for all sides of the spectrum nowadays, but one cannot argue that classic's content regarding raiding was harder than today's mythic. To assert that is just dellusional.

QFT Truer words have never been said.

[tankbug]

Damn, I started watching the video and gave this obvious troll a click.

[Oxford Kama]

Elaborate, please. Are you saying those who grind content for minor upgrades or progression such as those who played vanilla are not hardcore?

Difficulty means two different things to different people.

People who think Vanilla was harder than Retail think difficulty = time investment and weigh the time investment of the average Vanilla 60 against the average time investment of the average Retail 120. It took months for slow players to hit 60 compared to just a day /played for the slow players in retail to go 110-120, so obviously Vanilla was harder, right?

Nevermind endgame PvE outside of healers was two buttons for most specs. It took longer to hit 60 so it was harder. You could die to auto-attack from mobs while.leveling so it was harder.

Nevermind there is zero mechanical skill required to level 1-60 Vanilla outside of PvP. Nevermind the raids are incredibly easy. Difficulty = Time and that's that.

Then there are people that point out that the first five bosses of Mythic Tomb of Sargeras had more mechanics than every Vanilla raid up to AQ, and nevermind that the SoO Fistweave rotation was more complex than Vanilla Lock, Mage, Rogue, and Warrior's 40m rotation combined.

Vastly different ideas of what "hard" means.

Tedious and simple isn't hard. Complex and demanding is hard.

[Deianeira]

Aww come on now...really? You can't call someone who plays Tetris for an hour on the bus a gamer. I know there is no universal dictionary definition of the term gamer, but there is a difference between playing a game and being a gamer. None of my friends are gamers, but they all happily play solitaire or Bedazzled or whatever.

Then again its not the 90ies anymore, we do have very advanced games on mobile today compared to Tetris and solitaire.

[Malikath]

Then again its not the 90ies anymore, we do have very advanced games on mobile today compared to Tetris and solitaire.

yes, and they're still child's play compared to any other platform, even other portable ones.
if nintendo products were easier to get into china we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

[Polybius]

There was a time when devs made the game they envisioned. Not entirely balanced and not held by a leash either.

[Gaidax]

In other words, you don't want an MMORPG.

I just grew up and started valuing whatever little time I have with. I think you are a bit stuck in the past - a decade and a half ago MMORPG equalled grinding same shitty mobs to no end often with no goal in sight - like many MMOs of the past were literally "Levelling the Game" - was that really such a good gameplay? No it wasn't, we just did that shit because there was nothing better.

Then came developers that understood a simple concept - you don't have to make people to do mundane shit for long hours to let them have fun and we ended up having a ton of amazing multiplayer games that are fun from the get go that do not rely on making people grind 10k bear asses to do anything just to keep their sub intact.

So - in other words - I don't want to waste time preparing to have fun in games, that includes MMORPG and WoW is a MMORPG even without having to do shit that was a standard in the past.

[endersblade]

In fact, let me state that if anything is "ruining" games it's the e-sport and "competitive" or "one of the best players/guilds/etc. in the world" mentality that seems to infest everything, video game and otherwise. In my opinion, naturally.

Completely agreed. But I also believe that the instant gratification and mobile gaming especially are also completely ruining everything. Diablo: Immortal is a prime example of what's going on. A company known for their top of the line PC games...is releasing a mobile game. That tells me exactly everything I need to know about the future of gaming. Granted, Blizzard is also largely responsible for the whole e-sport thing, which is definitely a problem.

[czarek]

For me there is no problem with games that are targeted to casuals or even mobile games. The problem is when developer want make a game able for casuals and normal players. If something is for everything simply its for nothing.

[Gaidax]

Completely agreed. But I also believe that the instant gratification and mobile gaming especially are also completely ruining everything. Diablo: Immortal is a prime example of what's going on. A company known for their top of the line PC games...is releasing a mobile game. That tells me exactly everything I need to know about the future of gaming. Granted, Blizzard is also largely responsible for the whole e-sport thing, which is definitely a problem.

IMO "instant gratification" is a load of bull. That's a buzz word without meaning, like how whatever you wrote has anything to do with "instant gratification"?

Gaming company releasing hack and slash for mobile is somehow "instant gratification"? You what m8?