How to fix the reward structure of the game (v2)

[Echocho]

I made some changes based on feedback and logic.

[infinitemeridian]

How about stop basing progression and rewards around number increases, which is all gear has been throughout this entire game.

Maybe implement a PoE skill tree / warframe modding type system that gives people actual choice and customization around various scenarios. Gear should exist, but it should be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rewards.

The game needs rewards that aren't transient and the same every expansion.

[Echocho]

How about stop basing progression and rewards around number increases, which is all gear has been throughout this entire game.

Maybe implement a PoE skill tree / warframe modding type system that gives people actual choice and customization around various scenarios. Gear should exist, but it should be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rewards.

The game needs rewards that aren't transient and the same every expansion.

That would actually be great! I doubt Blizzard would ever do it though since they seem to have a very low opinion of their playerbase when they don't even have faith in them finding and understanding a PvP vendor.

[infinitemeridian]

That would actually be great! I doubt Blizzard would ever do it though since they seem to have a very low opinion of their playerbase when they don't even have faith in them finding and understanding a PvP vendor.

I don't think they can at this point - I have very little faith in any of the team there being creative enough to come up with completely new systems at this point that are meaningful and fun.

I generally agree with everyone that gearing now sucks for a variety of reasons - it is more that I am personally tired of reaching getting gear in one expansion, becoming a literal god in any content, then getting set back down to zero next expansion and repeat the process. Even if we remove things like titanforging, re-introduce valor points, bring back re-forging, etc., none of that fixes the core loop that these "rewards" are just higher numbers that bring the same sort of "progression" (I would call it an illusion of progression) we've seen since day one.

I'm not saying we should get rid of gear - I think it has to be baked into the reward system to some degree, but it has always been the ONLY reward system in this game from a character power / customization perspective, and personally I find it to be a lazy and uncreative process.

[Niwes]

mythic+ drops LFR quality ? wait, what... ?

[Echocho]

I don't think they can at this point - I have very little faith in any of the team there being creative enough to come up with completely new systems at this point that are meaningful and fun.

I generally agree with everyone that gearing now sucks for a variety of reasons - it is more that I am personally tired of reaching getting gear in one expansion, becoming a literal god in any content, then getting set back down to zero next expansion and repeat the process. Even if we remove things like titanforging, re-introduce valor points, bring back re-forging, etc., none of that fixes the core loop that these "rewards" are just higher numbers that bring the same sort of "progression" (I would call it an illusion of progression) we've seen since day one.

I'm not saying we should get rid of gear - I think it has to be baked into the reward system to some degree, but it has always been the ONLY reward system in this game from a character power / customization perspective, and personally I find it to be a lazy and uncreative process.

The legendary system in Legion was a bit like that. You could collect a number of different pieces that altered your gameplay (potentially) but you could only choose two of them. The customizability was quite alright but the acquisition method was horrible.

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mythic+ drops LFR quality ? wait, what... ?

You have to read the entire text, not just the first seven words.

[infinitemeridian]

The legendary system in Legion was a bit like that. You could collect a number of different pieces that altered your gameplay (potentially) but you could only choose two of them. The customizability was quite alright but the acquisition method was horrible.

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You have to read the entire text, not just the first seven words.

Yeah the legendary system was actually decent outside of the acquisition. I think it was very barebones and could definitely have been a lot "deeper". The other can of worms on this topic is that the community browbeats anybody who doesn't use anything that isn't simming highest in the top mythic raid difficulty. Part of that is Blizzard's fault, because they need to introduce systems where raiding is not the final destination.

[Echocho]

Yeah the legendary system was actually decent outside of the acquisition. I think it was very barebones and could definitely have been a lot "deeper". The other can of worms on this topic is that the community browbeats anybody who doesn't use anything that isn't simming highest in the top mythic raid difficulty. Part of that is Blizzard's fault, because they need to introduce systems where raiding is not the final destination.

If they were to reintroduce glyphs to the game I think that could be a good horizontal progression system, assuming that they're not just crafted but something you have to go out into the world and collect. They could potentially do mage tower levels of difficult solo content for the rarest glyphs.

[rohoz]

mythic+ drops LFR quality ? wait, what... ?

it's a shortbus thread, from a shortbus rider

[Echocho]

it's a shortbus thread, from a shortbus rider

I always find it's better to react after I've read the entire sentence though instead of in the middle of it like that guy did.

[Bhorin]

The M+ system you've outlined sounds atrocious.

Also, why not just post text instead of an idiotic graphic.

[Alkizon]

Yeah the legendary system was actually decent outside of the acquisition. I think it was very barebones and could definitely have been a lot "deeper". The other can of worms on this topic is that the community browbeats anybody who doesn't use anything that isn't simming highest in the top mythic raid difficulty. Part of that is Blizzard's fault, because they need to introduce systems where raiding is not the final destination.

Well, then you should rejoice at necklace+AA design, just as you rejoiced artifact+legendarys. This is something that is "temporary"-progression customization, which (what follows from your message) is what you want.

But you look at growth from items point of view, while you should look at it directly from characteristics, since everything else is “class-affecting” or imbalance component (which is actually disadvantage of both previous and current systems, but this have already discussed infinite number of times). My opinion in this sense hasn't changed since then: this is just bad.

ps. Not quite sure that you meant exactly this, but this is what I understood from your first post in the topic. If I'm wrong, then you could probably clarify your point better.


--- Separated (for being unrelated offtopic) ---

I like the fact that you link your own posts multiple times in every post I see you make.. as if anyone is going to go back and read your old post but yourself.

Maybe just state what you want to say in a relatively concise way in the current thread so people actually take in what you're saying otherwise you're basically in one ear and out the other.

I said, just only what I wanted to said. And everything else, as I have previously stated, is:

Just "read if you need".

I don't see meaning (it's inappropriate, offtopic) to separately carry out discussions on AA and other "items-talents", design+purpose+meaning of characteristics and stats in the game, design of classes and other things in this topic. Yes, it's related to affected part in the sense of, for example, progress+content or system of multi-complexity or forge stuff, but simply redundant. You can't argue that this material is useless in principle to this discussion... just surplus, secondary to this particular discussion. I mean, I already answered that question. It's enough to imagine that there is no links. That's not like "Go read my post mf!"

You see, person under you understands that question is much more complicated and wider than it seems.

Thanks for another spew of links to old posts that literally no one is going to read but yourself. Guess you kind of missed that point the first go around.

I never claimed that it wasn't a complicated conversation, but you pasting old posts as if anyone is going to read them is 100% pointless and add nothing to the current conversation.

What can I say, man, except for “this is your right not to read/agree” and “I don't insist”, which is actually a short version of that answer for you. But since you didn't read it (literally the answer, without links), then it remains only to guess why you asked it again this won't change anything. More like a provocative idle off topic chatter. Read if you need, man, just read if you need.

[Bhorin]

Well then, you should rejoice at necklace+AA design, just as you rejoiced artifact+legendarys. This is something that is "temporary"-progression customization, which (what follows from your message) is what you want.

But you look at growth from items point of view, while you should look at it directly from characteristics, since everything else is “class-affecting” or imbalance component (which is actually disadvantage of both previous and current systems, but this have already discussed infinite number of times). My opinion in this sense hasn't changed since then: this is just bad.

ps. Not quite sure that you meant exactly this, but this is what I understood from your first post in the topic. If I'm wrong, then you could probably clarify your point better.

I like the fact that you link your own posts multiple times in every post I see you make.. as if anyone is going to go back and read your old post but yourself.

Maybe just state what you want to say in a relatively concise way in the current thread so people actually take in what you're saying otherwise you're basically in one ear and out the other.

[SoulSoBreezy]

I made some changes based on feedback and logic.

This needs fleshing out; there're too many challenging questions and other nitpickyness here:
1. Define the structure of M+ more. How will this upgrade system work? Is there a cap to upgrades? Do they work on non dungeon gear? Will they be able to upgrade their current gear in a new season, or will they have to re-earn their pieces under the new base?
2. What about PvP gear? Crafted gear?
3. What are the sources of Valor? What are the vendor costs, the cap, etc.
4. Is it okay that there's considerably fewer things for players to do without Titanforging? A heroic raider is hamstrung to raid or die. Mythic raiders even more. M+ players will be underappreciated.

[huehuehue]

I like the fact that you link your own posts multiple times in every post I see you make.. as if anyone is going to go back and read your old post but yourself.

Maybe just state what you want to say in a relatively concise way in the current thread so people actually take in what you're saying otherwise you're basically in one ear and out the other.

adding those in could possibly be the biggest waste of time ever

[niil945]

No thanks. The moment you stop caring about what other people have equipped and whether they are worthy to have such gear, then you'll realize this "problem" is just one in your head. Casual players, who are the bulk of the playerbase, don't see the loot issue as a problem . Elitist tools do. Thus the issue isn't what you have a problem with, it's why casuals stopped playing.

[Bhorin]

snip a whole bunch of garbage.

Thanks for another spew of links to old posts that literally no one is going to read but yourself. Guess you kind of missed that point the first go around.

I never claimed that it wasn't a complicated conversation, but you pasting old posts as if anyone is going to read them is 100% pointless and add nothing to the current conversation.

[kamuimac]

I made some changes based on feedback and logic.

luckily you have nothing to say in this regard and devs dont care what forum whiners say

confirmed by Ion in last review when he specificaly say they dont care what people whine about on forum

so rewards will be how they are and TF is here to stay forever

dont like it ? go play something else

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No thanks. The moment you stop caring about what other people have equipped and whether they are worthy to have such gear, then you'll realize this "problem" is just one in your head. Casual players, who are the bulk of the playerbase, don't see the loot issue as a problem . Elitist tools do. Thus the issue isn't what you have a problem with, it's why casuals stopped playing.

1000% this

[Gaidax]

Basically one thread is not enough and you are now trying to spam the forums with your crap?

I'll just go ahead and report it as forum rules breach.

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No thanks. The moment you stop caring about what other people have equipped and whether they are worthy to have such gear, then you'll realize this "problem" is just one in your head. Casual players, who are the bulk of the playerbase, don't see the loot issue as a problem . Elitist tools do. Thus the issue isn't what you have a problem with, it's why casuals stopped playing.

This.

[rohoz]

No thanks. The moment you stop caring about what other people have equipped and whether they are worthy to have such gear, then you'll realize this "problem" is just one in your head. Casual players, who are the bulk of the playerbase, don't see the loot issue as a problem . Elitist tools do. Thus the issue isn't what you have a problem with, it's why casuals stopped playing.

it's funny because it's literally only forum scum with braindead plans like this really care.
everyone else just plays the meta, without spazzing out at "MuH ItEmLeVeL"

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Basically one thread is not enough and you are now trying to spam the forums with your crap?

I'll just go ahead and report it as forum rules breach.

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This.

good idea, close the faucet