[Horde Perspective Only] Do you like Baine as a character?

[Nathasil]

I guess your view depends on how you pick sides in RL, which is actually a very interesting connection to draw, especially with the US.

Do you chose one side and follow it to the end even if your side is fucking stupid and betrays everything they once said to be or do? Or do you actually look at what YOU (your character, in wow) wants to happen case by case and pick your side based on what has the most common ground with your views?

I get that the comparioson is not 100% applicable as some people who would not want the earth to burn in RL would still pick the evil option in a computer-game for shits and giggles....but since the Horde (Thrall's Horde) was never supposed to be the "Evil Faction" i think you have no "right" to condemn every non-evil character on that faction as a betrayer. You are still totally entitled to hate them, though.

Sylvanas having betrayed the Horde under Garrosh is 100% canon, for example...and still i see very few people actually calling her out for that. From the Horde side, that is.

[Mehrunes]

Nah. Only thing that's holding me back a bit is the fact that he's Cairne son. Barring that, as long as he shows more concern for the Alliance than his own people, continues to mutilate himself for our treasure and pursue what he believes in at the expense of other Horde soldiers, he's unsalvagable.

So he's unsalvageable, period. Because deviation from what you said would require a complete retcon of who Baine is. And that cannot really be called salvaging.

As for the Cairne son thing, Cairne probably is repeatedly beating his wife in Tauren afterlife, because in his mind there should be no chance that the monumental fuck-up Baine turned out to be would have come from his balls.

[Thage]

They tried to make Baine Thrall and it failed because he has not been through what Thrall has been through, he has not had to go through any real trials or tribulations.

I mean, the guy got stuck with his job after a traitor in the ranks manipulated the Warchief into using poison on his father, launched a bloody coup, and left currently-untold numbers of high-ranking tauren braves, hunters, and druids dead in their sleep. From there life seems to have done its level best to kick Baine in the teeth at every opportunity, affording him little chance to learn nuance and subtlety as a leader. Add to it that when he was working on recapturing Thunder Bluff, due to myriad reasons (including Grimtotem killing messengers and a lack of information as to how complicit Garrosh was in the coup), Baine had to go to supposed enemies for aid and they ended up hitting it off exceptionally well, it's little surprise he can be biased in his treatment of Jaina and Anduin. He's certainly had his share of trials and tribulations; Thrall's situation was exceptional but it shouldn't be the measuring stick for whether a character is 'allowed' to put his ideals and concept of justice above his loyalty to the Warchief. I'd argue it makes him more interesting than a blind bootlicker like Nathanos, or someone who just sort of exists like Gallywix (who never really rocks the boat). And of the Horde leaders to call foul on Sylvanas's current MO, it should be Baine. He was the first, alongside Vol'jin, to openly rebel against Garrosh when Garrosh took things a step too far.


On topic, I like Baine. He's not handled well by the writers at the moment, who aim for 'Only Sane Man' but tend to miss the mark badly (and can't seem to figure out a core personality for him; I'd like to vote for the boisterous big-guy from the end of Legion). Biggest issue he has is, there's situations where Baine puts his ass on the line in a way he hadn't intended to, because he doesn't get politics (which, in my opinion, is his biggest barrier and why he wouldn't make a solid candidate for Warchief unless he does a lot of studying on how to handle the Horde's disparate nations, never mind that and dealing with the Alliance and neutral factions). Especially not politics the way an elf like Sylvanas gets politics, or how Garrosh's approach to politics was 'smash it 'til it stops talking.' And Baine keeps letting himself fall into the trap of thinking that honor to one's ideals and justice trump all, which was a luxury he had while Cairne was High Chieftain but not one he enjoys as High Chieftain himself; on paper, Sylvanas is entirely right that what Baine's done is treason (being actions meant to assist foreign hostile powers, never mind the stunt he pulls with Derek Proudmoore). It doesn't matter that Baine's actions are taken in pursuit of justice and his ideals of both factions aspiring to be better, not in her eyes--he directly acted in a way that undermined her position as Warchief more than once, and if there's one thing Sylvanas never cared about, it was justice as a defense for one's actions.

[Unholyground]

I mean, the guy got stuck with his job after a traitor in the ranks manipulated the Warchief into using poison on his father, launched a bloody coup, and left currently-untold numbers of high-ranking tauren braves, hunters, and druids dead in their sleep. From there life seems to have done its level best to kick Baine in the teeth at every opportunity, affording him little chance to learn nuance and subtlety as a leader. Add to it that when he was working on recapturing Thunder Bluff, due to myriad reasons (including Grimtotem killing messengers and a lack of information as to how complicit Garrosh was in the coup), Baine had to go to supposed enemies for aid and they ended up hitting it off exceptionally well, it's little surprise he can be biased in his treatment of Jaina and Anduin. He's certainly had his share of trials and tribulations; Thrall's situation was exceptional but it shouldn't be the measuring stick for whether a character is 'allowed' to put his ideals and concept of justice above his loyalty to the Warchief. I'd argue it makes him more interesting than a blind bootlicker like Nathanos, or someone who just sort of exists like Gallywix (who never really rocks the boat). And of the Horde leaders to call foul on Sylvanas's current MO, it should be Baine. He was the first, alongside Vol'jin, to openly rebel against Garrosh when Garrosh took things a step too far.


On topic, I like Baine. He's not handled well by the writers at the moment, who aim for 'Only Sane Man' but tend to miss the mark badly (and can't seem to figure out a core personality for him; I'd like to vote for the boisterous big-guy from the end of Legion). Biggest issue he has is, there's situations where Baine puts his ass on the line in a way he hadn't intended to, because he doesn't get politics (which, in my opinion, is his biggest barrier and why he wouldn't make a solid candidate for Warchief unless he does a lot of studying on how to handle the Horde's disparate nations, never mind that and dealing with the Alliance and neutral factions). Especially not politics the way an elf like Sylvanas gets politics, or how Garrosh's approach to politics was 'smash it 'til it stops talking.' And Baine keeps letting himself fall into the trap of thinking that honor to one's ideals and justice trump all, which was a luxury he had while Cairne was High Chieftain but not one he enjoys as High Chieftain himself; on paper, Sylvanas is entirely right that what Baine's done is treason (being actions meant to assist foreign hostile powers, never mind the stunt he pulls with Derek Proudmoore). It doesn't matter that Baine's actions are taken in pursuit of justice and his ideals of both factions aspiring to be better, not in her eyes--he directly acted in a way that undermined her position as Warchief more than once, and if there's one thing Sylvanas never cared about, it was justice as a defense for one's actions.

I don't hate the character mind you, it is just apparent they tried to make him Thralley.

[Niroshi]

Christ some of you people are extreme. He's a peaceful character that formed a friendship with an enemy, that's literally it and ya'll hate him for it.

[Verdugo]

Christ some of you people are extreme. He's a peaceful character that formed a friendship with an enemy, that's literally it and ya'll hate him for it.

Would you say the same if someone from Alliance made friends with Sylvanas?

[Dagoth Ur]

So he's unsalvageable, period. Because deviation from what you said would require a complete retcon of who Baine is. And that cannot really be called salvaging.

Pretty much. I was thinking about possible scenario where they make him flip flop like Jaina, so he becomes a walking mad cow referrence, but that wouldn't really be salvaging either.

As for the Cairne son thing, Cairne probably is repeatedly beating his wife in Tauren afterlife, because in his mind there should be no chance that the monumental fuck-up Baine turned out to be would have come from his balls.

Seriously though, it'd actually be up for a scenario where Cairne through some beyond grave magic mumbo jumbo talks Baine's ear off about how he acts more like a child than leader of tauren. It's probablly better to leave Cairne alone though, maybe he rests in blissful ignorance of the state of his son.

[Nerovar]

I kinda understand what they trying to do with the character
Young idealistic guy who trying to do the sane thing when the planet you live on is dying and your stuck following an undead corpse that’ll kill you and use your corpse as a puppet without any shred of remorse.
Blizzard just cant make it work without him coming off as a wimpy character

Yeah. Nailed it. It's mostly Blizzard's ineptitude and absolute lack of remotely decent writing that turns potentially interesting characters into one dimensional puppets that deliver lines you could just as well find inside a fortune cooky. Try finding a conversation that involves either Saurfang or Baine and doesn't mention "honor" at least once. I just want to puke at my keyboard because of all this corny unbelievable dialogue.

[Super Kami Dende]

He's mostly useless and a far reach from how cool Cairne was.

[zlygork]

I likedhim in the cata books, his inactive whining during bfa is something that I really cant get behind, though. If this were wc3 where alliances are made and broken constantly, I would have expected the tauren to have left the horde and I would have been fine with that.

[Super Kami Dende]

Christ some of you people are extreme. He's a peaceful character that formed a friendship with an enemy, that's literally it and ya'll hate him for it.

He's the leader of one of the most Life/nature filled peaceful races on Azeroth, aligning himself with someone who is literally all about Death and destruction and blighting things.

It's nearly stockholm syndrome worthy.

- - - Updated - - -

Christ some of you people are extreme. He's a peaceful character that formed a friendship with an enemy, that's literally it and ya'll hate him for it.

He's the leader of one of the most Life/nature filled peaceful races on Azeroth, aligning himself with someone who is literally all about Death and destruction and blighting things.

It's nearly stockholm syndrome worthy.

[Niroshi]

He's the leader of one of the most Life/nature filled peaceful races on Azeroth, aligning himself with someone who is literally all about Death and destruction and blighting things.

It's nearly stockholm syndrome worthy.

This dude hasn't been loyal to Sylvanas this entire expansion though. He's been issuing ominous threats, giving his growly face and even investigating why she's even warchief for a while. He's been plainly rebellious since the start of BFA.

[Gann Stonespire]

He's one of the few interesting horde characters atm.

You only say that because Baine repeatedly betrays the horde and sabotages the defense of his own people to help the Alliance.

[Super Kami Dende]

This dude hasn't been loyal to Sylvanas this entire expansion though. He's been issuing ominous threats, giving his growly face and even investigating why she's even warchief for a while. He's been plainly rebellious since the start of BFA.

Plainly rebellious, whilst still carrying out orders.

[ausoin]

Would you say the same if someone from Alliance made friends with Sylvanas?

Cant really compare the two.

[Verdugo]

Cant really compare the two.

What would you consider to be a valid response in such case.

[Gann Stonespire]

Cant really compare the two.

Your overlooking Baine deliberately sending tauren to their deaths and exiling tauren defending themselves from Alliance criminals for Jaina's sake.

Baine doesn't want peace, he wants the Alliance to win.

[Jester Joe]

On one hand you have (at least) one Horde character. In a game that doesn't lock players to one faction forever. On the other hand you repeatedly push pro-Alliance shilling on the lore forum and participate in "woe is Alliance in war mode even with welfare epics" - very much on the woe side of those discussions - in Gen OT. What to trust, what to trust...

Do you ever debate without ad hominem or...?

[Mehrunes]

Do you ever debate without ad hominem or...?

How on earth was that an ad hominem? Pointing out your pro-Alliance post history (in both story and game mechanics aspect) when the (sub)topic in question - that you yourself engaged in - was explicitly whether or not are you an Alliance or Horde poster is as on-point as a post could get.

So, do you ever debate without nonsensical deflections???1@!?1?

[Jester Joe]

How on earth was that an ad hominem? Pointing out your pro-Alliance post history (in both story and game mechanics aspect) when the (sub)topic in question - that you yourself engaged in - was explicitly whether or not are you an Alliance or Horde poster is as on-point as a post could get.

So, do you ever debate without nonsensical deflections???1@!?1?

How is going off of "post history" rather than what was said NOT ad hominem?
That's literally the definition of it, attacking the person rather than their point.

And what a surprise, I talk about Alliance stuff on a lore forum! Not sure why you think GenOT comes into play but there's really no point in wasting time on this