Ga'nar's appreciation thread

[NatePsy]

They kill off any badass Orc character with honour sadly. Nazgrim was an example of that.

[Felixon]

The ingame book "The New Horde" calls it so. Yes, it's Horde from beginning to the end, but the term "New Horde" is sort of like a mark for a certain point in its history. It's like a nickname if you wish, instead of using "the Horde at the moment in time when Thrall became leader and helped free the orcs etc".
And it's not that hard to understand why it's nicknamed differently, it's to mark the change. The Horde itself was founded through Sargeras' influence (indirectly, if you will) and had one purpose - to help destroy and conquer. The "new" Horde didn't have the same purpose and was, in theory, free of demonic influence - it brought back shamanism and sort of undid what the (original) Horde was founded on.

"The Old Horde[3][4][5] (aka (Old) Horde[3] or old Horde with lower-case "old" - see below for details, or the first Horde,[6][7] or the demon-corrupted Horde,[8] and originally known as the Horde[9] or Orcish Horde[10] and Orc Horde[11] during the time of its existence) is a nickname given to the Horde from its beginning prior to the First War until it was defeated by the Alliance of Lordaeron at the end of the Second War. It is used to differentiate it from the New Horde, founded by Thrall after the Old Horde's defeat. Fundamental principles of the Old Horde included demon worship, the consumption of demon blood to become stronger, merciless killing and warfare, and victory in combat to prove one's worth. Their ranks consisted originally only of orcs, soon joined by ogres from Draenor and later by forest trolls and goblins from Azeroth."

[Wildberry]

Well,I think,that there's a difference between the orcs,who were fueled with the fel and controlled by the Legion and the orcs with a free will.

During the Second War they were led by Doomhammer who had free will. Regardless, Doomhammer re-established the Horde, not Thrall. And that happened years before Vol'jin and Cairne were in the picture.

The ingame book "The New Horde" calls it so. Yes, it's Horde from beginning to the end, but the term "New Horde" is sort of like a mark for a certain point in its history. It's like a nickname if you wish, instead of using "the Horde at the moment in time when Thrall became leader and helped free the orcs etc".

By the time Thrall was made Warchief, most of the Orcs had been liberated from the internment camps. Doomhammer died at the latter end of that. In the context of this discussion, that happened years before Vol'jin and Cairne joined the Horde.

And it's not that hard to understand why it's nicknamed differently, it's to mark the change. The Horde itself was founded through Sargeras' influence (indirectly, if you will) and had one purpose - to help destroy and conquer. The "new" Horde didn't have the same purpose and was, in theory, free of demonic influence - it brought back shamanism and sort of undid what the (original) Horde was founded on.

The Horde stopped being a pawn of the Burning Legion (minus Gul'dan) in the direct sense the moment Doomhammer became Warchief and destroyed the Shadow Council. From that point on, it was just a political organization aimed at securing a future for the Orcs.

Fundamental principles of the Old Horde included demon worship, the consumption of demon blood to become stronger

Both of these were largely done away with before the end of the First War. Demon worship in particular is something Doomhammer stamped out pretty hard.

victory in combat to prove one's worth.

This was the case for Orcs before the Horde. It still is the case.

It is used to differentiate it from the New Horde, founded by Thrall after the Old Horde's defeat.

Wowpedia/Wowwiki is just factually incorrect on that count, though.

[yetgdhfgh]

Show me another video that is more bad ass?

[Lord Pebbleton]

Wasn't it the guy shoveling sh*t around in the WoD intro scenario? Lol
I have two horde characters and I cannot remember seeing him again after that

Edit: was it the dude that always went against Durotan's orders in order to pursue the Frostfire baddy? If so, I dubbed him Grom 2, maybe that's why I forgot the name until now

[Felixon]

During the Second War they were led by Doomhammer who had free will. Regardless, Doomhammer re-established the Horde, not Thrall. And that happened years before Vol'jin and Cairne were in the picture.

And only the Doomhammer had a free will - the other orcs except the Frostwolves were still under the blood curse. Main goal of the Orcish Horde was a conquest,the goal of the New Horde was survival.

[Super Dickmann]

And only the Doomhammer had a free will - the other orcs except the Frostwolves were still under the blood curse. Main goal of the Orcish Horde was a conquest,the goal of the New Horde was survival.

This is sophistry though. Thrall has the armor and hammer of Doomhammer, given to him along with his rank by Doomhammer. The Horde has the same leadership structure, the same name, the same iconography and even the same goals since what Thrall did after Doomhammer kicked the bucket was what Doomhammer was in the process of doing, up until he bailed to Kalimdor. Everything else is just how Thrall personally leads the Horde as is his right per the blood oath.

[Tyron]

The worst thing about Ga'nar's death is that his Worg stays there watching the place where he's buried. Every time I fly over there it gets me right in the feels

[Wildberry]

And only the Doomhammer had a free will - the other orcs except the Frostwolves were still under the blood curse. Main goal of the Orcish Horde was a conquest,the goal of the New Horde was survival.

In addition to what Dickmann has said, there are a few points to consider:

First, Doomhammer having free will is something that can't dismissively be chalked up to "only." Considering that, as Warchief, he was the most influential Orc at the time, and was directing the Horde, the Horde can be said to be largely independent of the Burning Legion throughout the Second War. Sure, the rank and file were hopped up on Mannoroth's Blood, but they weren't making decisions.

With regard to the goal of the Horde at that time, why were they interested in conquest? Their own planet was dying. By the eve of the Second War, Doomhammer was in a position where he needed more land to sustain the entirety of the Orcish population, and was suspecting retaliation from Stormwind's allies anyway. It sounds like the motivation for conquest was survival to me.

[omeomorfismo]

a question i always had. but during the second war exactly how the horde supplied the demon blood with the shadow coucil gone and guldan relegated as a necromancer?
there arent references even in the chronicles

[Super Dickmann]

a question i always had. but during the second war exactly how the horde supplied the demon blood with the shadow coucil gone and guldan relegated as a necromancer?
there arent references even in the chronicles

They didn't. The orcs only drank the blood once, and the Horde stopped using fel after Doomhammer offed all the Shadow Council. The only ones who may have used fel are the death knights since they were former warlocks and made by Gul'dan, but in any case, the rank and file wouldn't be getting any fresh doses of Mannoroth's blood or the old fel empowerment they did in Chronicle.

Also, the effect the blood had on them is a bit overstated. They were unable to go against the Legion, but without any demons directly involved, they were just more bloodthirsty and stronger than usual. They still had beliefs and culture, which is why Gul'dan didn't use the bodies of orcs to host the Shadow Council, as defiling their own dead would get him lynched by the orcs.

[Felixon]

In addition to what Dickmann has said, there are a few points to consider:

First, Doomhammer having free will is something that can't dismissively be chalked up to "only." Considering that, as Warchief, he was the most influential Orc at the time, and was directing the Horde, the Horde can be said to be largely independent of the Burning Legion throughout the Second War. Sure, the rank and file were hopped up on Mannoroth's Blood, but they weren't making decisions.

With regard to the goal of the Horde at that time, why were they interested in conquest? Their own planet was dying. By the eve of the Second War, Doomhammer was in a position where he needed more land to sustain the entirety of the Orcish population, and was suspecting retaliation from Stormwind's allies anyway. It sounds like the motivation for conquest was survival to me.

Well, actually this a good discussion topic. Doomhammer thought,that there's no other way but to conquer Stormwind - though,he didn't want to conquer it,he thought,that it was the only way - so he kills thousands. Then,he starts to worry,that it won't go unpunished,so he starts to prepare for war against those,who would come for vengeance - and kills thousands and loses thousands of his soldiers. Of course,when he got the leadership of the Horde he was at war against the Stormwind,but,was the conquest of Stormwind the best solution? Couldn't they move south and settle in Stranglethorn?

[Dalheim]

Theryn was cool as heck, but Runas made me sadder for some reason. He was a really entertaining guy, and he more than atoned for his sins in the end.

Aye, I actually felt a lil sad over Runas. :<

I think he's the reason the PC actually helps the Nightfallen, having seen what will actually happen.

[Felixon]

They didn't. The orcs only drank the blood once, and the Horde stopped using fel after Doomhammer offed all the Shadow Council. The only ones who may have used fel are the death knights since they were former warlocks and made by Gul'dan, but in any case, the rank and file wouldn't be getting any fresh doses of Mannoroth's blood or the old fel empowerment they did in Chronicle.

@omeomorfismo I think,that it worked a bit differently - I think,that didn't have to take some additional dosage,the one they got worked until they were put in the internment camps. Suppose it worked for an amount of time,and when it the effect expired,they became what they became,when they were put in the internment camps. They were a tool for a certain task in the hands of the Kil'jaeden - Kil'jaeden didn't plan to add them to the army of the Legion.

[omeomorfismo]

Well, actually this a good discussion topic. Doomhammer thought,that there's no other way but to conquer Stormwind - though,he didn't want to conquer it,he thought,that it was the only way - so he kills thousands. Then,he starts to worry,that it won't go unpunished,so he starts to prepare for war against those,who would come for vengeance - and kills thousands and loses thousands of his soldiers. Of course,when he got the leadership of the Horde he was at war against the Stormwind,but,was the conquest of Stormwind the best solution? Couldn't they move south and settle in Stranglethorn?

between wage war against humans or gurubashi, considering that only bleeding hollow lived in jungles and even had to retreat from an expedition here, the former were by far weaker, so the best solution..

They didn't. The orcs only drank the blood once, and the Horde stopped using fel after Doomhammer offed all the Shadow Council. The only ones who may have used fel are the death knights since they were former warlocks and made by Gul'dan, but in any case, the rank and file wouldn't be getting any fresh doses of Mannoroth's blood or the old fel empowerment they did in Chronicle.

Also, the effect the blood had on them is a bit overstated. They were unable to go against the Legion, but without any demons directly involved, they were just more bloodthirsty and stronger than usual. They still had beliefs and culture, which is why Gul'dan didn't use the bodies of orcs to host the Shadow Council, as defiling their own dead would get him lynched by the orcs.

that make sense, but then the letargy became a bit too conveniently precise in time.. i had to take it as plot device...

[Super Dickmann]

that make sense, but then the letargy became a bit too conveniently precise in time.. i had to take it as plot device...

@Felixon

A bit of what he said, but nothing so specific as intent. While they didn't get more doses of blood, the orcs were running out and killing shit. The second they did that, the high ran out, and the lethargy kicked in, since they were no longer killing.

[Ramz]

Blizzard: Do you like that character ?
Players" *nod*
B: Do you want to see more of it ?
P: *nod*
B: Too fucking bad, he dies.

Fixed that.
Apply that to every character in WoW universe. Starting with Rastakhan.

[Wildberry]

Of course,when he got the leadership of the Horde he was at war against the Stormwind,but,was the conquest of Stormwind the best solution? Couldn't they move south and settle in Stranglethorn?

Conquest of Stormwind was really the only solution.

By the time Doomhammer became Warchief, the Horde had already conquered most of the territory, and were staging assaults against the city itself. They were really almost done. If they had reoriented south, towards Stranglethorn, they'd have had to start over from square 1 and likely would have had the humans staging counterattacks anyway.

Plus, Doomhammer notes in "Tides of Darkness," that Stormwind's lands alone wouldn't be enough to sustain the entirety of the Horde. That, in conjunction with fear of retaliation is what prompted him to launch the Second War. Considering Stranglethorn's a little less hospitable than Stormwind's lands, the idea that the entire Horde could be sustained there just doesn't work out.

Plus, that's ignoring the fact that if it weren't Humans dying, it would be Trolls. No matter what Doomhammer did, he had to conquer something for his people, otherwise they'd all starve.

[Dagoth Ur]

Ga'nar was amazing. I wish we had seen the original Orgrim questline too but it was killed. Imo WoD lore was not nearly as bad as people say and could have been so much better

I'm out of the loop here and you've made me curious. What was the original Orgrim questline supposed to be?

[Dagoth Ur]

I don't know. I know he was supposed to have had an extensive questline in Gorgrond that was cut. It's quite obvious the questline was cut as well because you barely get to interact with him during Talador questing and then he suddenly appears in Shattrath to betray Blackhand.
According to Wowpedia:

Ah, that's a shame. What they've done to him in WoD was straight up criminal in my book.

That's kinda why I've been hoping for a while now they give us a sneak peek at past him in orc's heritage armour questline. It'd make sense considering he was the one with who the rebirth of honorable Horde actually started with despite people attributing it to Thrall. He as warchief also dealt with more or less similar problems current Horde's dealing with, so some nice parallels could be drawn there.