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  1. #1

    Any Outplays, Masterful things Rogue can do in PvP?

    I make PvP youtube videos as a fun little side activity and im having trouble finding any "entertainment value" out of Outlaw Rogue gameplay.
    Any masterful rogues out there willing to give some insight on possible cool things Rogue can do?

    My alt is a Demon Hunter and i can find a lot of different skillful things to do with him.
    But my mind is a blank when it comes to Rogue things.

    The only thing that comes to mind:
    -Using Feint before a stun.
    -Using grappling hook to get behind a caster right before the cast ends to avoid a spell (i did this on my most recent video, the idea came to me naturally )
    (...)

    My mind is blank...i cant find any more entertainment value out of Rogue need help...im a noob
    Last edited by Roanda; 2019-02-02 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #2
    You definitely picked the wrong expansion for this project.

    I'm not saying you won't find any potential at all, but it's massively reduced for this class compared to every expansion prior to the Legion redesign.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  3. #3
    First of, let me start by sayingthat what I am writing below is in no way, shape or form meant to discourage you from making more videos, you enjoy making these and that's cool .
    I had a quick look at your videos and I don't mean to be rude and this is just my personal opinion but to me it appears that you're going for a meme approach rather than "actual skill". I had a look at your rogue video and then DH - World PvP - Healing Spec one, the DH one just seems to be a somewhat broken mechanic that you're abusing, great for memes, not so great for displaying skill. The rogue video was more of the same, the grappling hook dodge was cute I guess, but it seemed to me that you could just literally run through him or even have used gouge.
    I realise this may be unwelcome advice all together, but personally I am not a fan of World PvP or BG PvP videos as more often than not the balance of power is heavily skewed towards the creator and a video of you beating someone who might well have far worse gear than you just isn't appealing to me.
    Personally I would recommend watching Reckful 3 (there is a version that Reckful himself comments on where he breaks down what he is doing, quite informative), this is Arena (IMO a superior setting for outplays as the balance of power is even) and I think it's back from Cataclysm. The basics remain much of the same though and despite Negative Nancy Shoegazers statement many of the abilities that he use in this showcase are still available to rogues.

  4. #4
    thanks for the laugh.

    Long gone are the days of vanishing death coil's and preforming clinical blind/sap combo's and CCing people to death.

    Now its about doing your pve rotation well while sticking to your target.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    First of, let me start by sayingthat what I am writing below is in no way, shape or form meant to discourage you from making more videos, you enjoy making these and that's cool .
    I had a quick look at your videos and I don't mean to be rude and this is just my personal opinion but to me it appears that you're going for a meme approach rather than "actual skill". I had a look at your rogue video and then DH - World PvP - Healing Spec one, the DH one just seems to be a somewhat broken mechanic that you're abusing, great for memes, not so great for displaying skill. The rogue video was more of the same, the grappling hook dodge was cute I guess, but it seemed to me that you could just literally run through him or even have used gouge.
    I realise this may be unwelcome advice all together, but personally I am not a fan of World PvP or BG PvP videos as more often than not the balance of power is heavily skewed towards the creator and a video of you beating someone who might well have far worse gear than you just isn't appealing to me.
    Personally I would recommend watching Reckful 3 (there is a version that Reckful himself comments on where he breaks down what he is doing, quite informative), this is Arena (IMO a superior setting for outplays as the balance of power is even) and I think it's back from Cataclysm. The basics remain much of the same though and despite Negative Nancy Shoegazers statement many of the abilities that he use in this showcase are still available to rogues.
    Thanks for the sincerity and your information.
    I know i suck i will never deny that
    And the quality of my videos also suck.

    But i have fun, you know

    Thanks for the replies guys...it seems Rogue is a bland class for BG's and World PvP i guess.
    On my Demon Hunter i have immunity on meta, immunity on rain from above, darkness pre stun, kite major cooldowns etc.

    On Rogue....i have nothing sad

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    I make PvP youtube videos as a fun little side activity and im having trouble finding any "entertainment value" out of Outlaw Rogue gameplay.
    Any masterful rogues out there willing to give some insight on possible cool things Rogue can do?

    My alt is a Demon Hunter and i can find a lot of different skillful things to do with him.
    But my mind is a blank when it comes to Rogue things.

    The only thing that comes to mind:
    -Using Feint before a stun.
    -Using grappling hook to get behind a caster right before the cast ends to avoid a spell (i did this on my most recent video, the idea came to me naturally )
    (...)

    My mind is blank...i cant find any more entertainment value out of Rogue need help...im a noob
    Strafe from left to right like a maniac to increase your dps and skill during a fight. Im guessing thats what the strafing is for... right?

    (Actually joking. Dont get mad. I know it originated from when back in the days when some attacks needed to be from behind etc... but still :P)
    Last edited by Appelgren; 2019-02-03 at 06:49 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    First of, let me start by sayingthat what I am writing below is in no way, shape or form meant to discourage you from making more videos, you enjoy making these and that's cool .
    I had a quick look at your videos and I don't mean to be rude and this is just my personal opinion but to me it appears that you're going for a meme approach rather than "actual skill". I had a look at your rogue video and then DH - World PvP - Healing Spec one, the DH one just seems to be a somewhat broken mechanic that you're abusing, great for memes, not so great for displaying skill. The rogue video was more of the same, the grappling hook dodge was cute I guess, but it seemed to me that you could just literally run through him or even have used gouge.
    I realise this may be unwelcome advice all together, but personally I am not a fan of World PvP or BG PvP videos as more often than not the balance of power is heavily skewed towards the creator and a video of you beating someone who might well have far worse gear than you just isn't appealing to me.
    Personally I would recommend watching Reckful 3 (there is a version that Reckful himself comments on where he breaks down what he is doing, quite informative), this is Arena (IMO a superior setting for outplays as the balance of power is even) and I think it's back from Cataclysm. The basics remain much of the same though and despite Negative Nancy Shoegazers statement many of the abilities that he use in this showcase are still available to rogues.
    Before the age of twitch, people would take a lot bigger risks in their gameplay when they were frapsing because they could keep the clips where the risks worked and throw out the ones where it failed. So this type of PvP video is fundamentally different from a twitch stream where someone is displaying the skill of grinding to the very highest ratings.

    The point is, not everything is about being R1, or even about rating. A small minority participates in rated arena, and of that minority (prior to the recent title rework) only 3% can receive Duelist in a season, 0.5% Gladiator, and 0.1% R1. It's absolutely absurd to assume that this alone is the sole purpose of playing the game, and even when you watch R1 players you see them throw games for laughs because they are screwing around with their friends.

    The OP's project is not about showing off arena rating, it's about having fun. The design of the class currently is arranged around this laser focused script, everything about getting maximum tempo and value out of every single stun DR, getting a quality "go" each time. The previous design both rewarded solid fundamentals and the ability to read situations, while also providing a lot more gameplay options for spontaneity and risk taking.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Appelgren View Post
    Strafe from left to right like a maniac to increase your dps and skill during a fight. Im guessing thats what the strafing is for... right?

    (Actually joking. Dont get mad. I know it originated from when back in the days when some attacks needed to be from behind etc... but still :P)
    lol i do that a lot walking from right to left like a maniac.

    Thanks for reminding of trying to find the opponents back.
    Its very good against bad players.
    For some reason i stopped doing that i used to do it all the time

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    lol i do that a lot walking from right to left like a maniac.

    Thanks for reminding of trying to find the opponents back.
    Its very good against bad players.
    For some reason i stopped doing that i used to do it all the time
    Yeah.. Thats why i added the paranthesis because there is actually a reason other than looking really stupid

  10. #10
    Here's what I can think of atm.

    • Winning a 1v2. The classic. Through the skillful use of focus target, accompanying macros and CC abilities, you will be able to hold your own in a 1v2 situation. Sometimes even win them. This is most easily done as subtlety, though, as you have access to stuns and sap through shadow dance. Plus, Smoke Bomb and Shadowy Duel help.
    • DfA, to counter crowd control. Especially masterful if you duel a warrior and manage to evade his Stormbolt.
    • Tricking people with the use of Shadow Step. Juking them to jump off ledges and such.
    • The 90° trick. If you angle yourself orthagonally to your target while in stealth, you can still use your abilities but you won't auto-attack, making it possible to put Garrote/Nightblade/any other dot on your sapped target without Sap breaking until the first tick. This buys you a precious second of CC. It was common knowledge back in the day but nowadays, I see quite a lot of rogues unaware of this little move.

    Outlaw is perhaps not the right place to look for skillful plays. Rogue is already a shadow of its former self and not in the good way.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    Here's what I can think of atm.

    • Winning a 1v2. The classic. Through the skillful use of focus target, accompanying macros and CC abilities, you will be able to hold your own in a 1v2 situation. Sometimes even win them. This is most easily done as subtlety, though, as you have access to stuns and sap through shadow dance. Plus, Smoke Bomb and Shadowy Duel help.
    • DfA, to counter crowd control. Especially masterful if you duel a warrior and manage to evade his Stormbolt.
    • Tricking people with the use of Shadow Step. Juking them to jump off ledges and such.
    • The 90° trick. If you angle yourself orthagonally to your target while in stealth, you can still use your abilities but you won't auto-attack, making it possible to put Garrote/Nightblade/any other dot on your sapped target without Sap breaking until the first tick. This buys you a precious second of CC. It was common knowledge back in the day but nowadays, I see quite a lot of rogues unaware of this little move.

    Outlaw is perhaps not the right place to look for skillful plays. Rogue is already a shadow of its former self and not in the good way.
    GOOD STUFF! THANKS!

    Does DfA have immunity frames? I didnt know that

  12. #12
    The only real avenue left to do this kind of thing is to play a private server and get really good at small scale pvp. The problem is there are a lot of players who have spent years on a single expansion and know every trick there is so it's hard to come up with anything fresh. BFA and the current design direction of activision in general is very much against players being able to drastically outplay each other.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Thanks for the sincerity and your information.
    I know i suck i will never deny that
    And the quality of my videos also suck.

    But i have fun, you know
    First off, I don't think you suck nor does your videos, to each their own, I did notice that the Like/dislike ratio wasn't great on your videos but you have remember that this is not necessarily a reflection of your skill (in game or video editing wise), but I think if someone stumbles across your DH video for instance who is not a DH they might not see the same entertainment value in you using some of these "broken" abilities and mechanics . So I don't think you should let stuff like that discourage you.
    Your video editing skills will grow with time, as long as you push yourself, try doing something new (however small) in every video, it might be a silly transition between cuts or a more colourful way for the text you display to appear, but once you've done that you know how to do it and you can use it in future videos with much greater ease. For a good short video essay on this I would recommend "SovietWomble - The Art of Subtitles". I'll try to give an example, in the video where the Warlock is channelling is Chaos Bolt you show down time (great stuff), maybe try slowing it down even further, do a cut away gag to maybe Dragonball Z of one of the characters charging up an attack, keep the sound from Dragonball rolling while you cut back to the ingame footage in super slo-mo and then when you chain behind him at the last second put in like a very brief fart sound (or someone blowing a quick raspberry if you know that term ) or something else signifying that it fizzled.
    In terms of your in game skill, I would personally recommend trying out Arena, setting yourself up against players of equal (or greater) skill is really one of the best ways to learn and hey, if you do recordings of it all it's actually easier for you to go back and look at your mistakes and failure is pretty darn great teacher.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    First off, I don't think you suck nor does your videos, to each their own, I did notice that the Like/dislike ratio wasn't great on your videos but you have remember that this is not necessarily a reflection of your skill (in game or video editing wise), but I think if someone stumbles across your DH video for instance who is not a DH they might not see the same entertainment value in you using some of these "broken" abilities and mechanics . So I don't think you should let stuff like that discourage you.
    Your video editing skills will grow with time, as long as you push yourself, try doing something new (however small) in every video, it might be a silly transition between cuts or a more colourful way for the text you display to appear, but once you've done that you know how to do it and you can use it in future videos with much greater ease. For a good short video essay on this I would recommend "SovietWomble - The Art of Subtitles". I'll try to give an example, in the video where the Warlock is channelling is Chaos Bolt you show down time (great stuff), maybe try slowing it down even further, do a cut away gag to maybe Dragonball Z of one of the characters charging up an attack, keep the sound from Dragonball rolling while you cut back to the ingame footage in super slo-mo and then when you chain behind him at the last second put in like a very brief fart sound (or someone blowing a quick raspberry if you know that term ) or something else signifying that it fizzled.
    In terms of your in game skill, I would personally recommend trying out Arena, setting yourself up against players of equal (or greater) skill is really one of the best ways to learn and hey, if you do recordings of it all it's actually easier for you to go back and look at your mistakes and failure is pretty darn great teacher.
    Love your Dragon Ball edit might give it a try! Ahah sounds so good. Mind if i steal it?
    I actually do arena but am stuck in 1850 rating.
    We actually do what you said! Record the arena and learn our mistakes from the video record.

    Now....i must do your dragon ball video edit AND im starting to gather gameplay of me using the immunity frames of Death from Above

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Before the age of twitch, people would take a lot bigger risks in their gameplay when they were frapsing because they could keep the clips where the risks worked and throw out the ones where it failed. So this type of PvP video is fundamentally different from a twitch stream where someone is displaying the skill of grinding to the very highest ratings.

    The point is, not everything is about being R1, or even about rating. A small minority participates in rated arena, and of that minority (prior to the recent title rework) only 3% can receive Duelist in a season, 0.5% Gladiator, and 0.1% R1. It's absolutely absurd to assume that this alone is the sole purpose of playing the game, and even when you watch R1 players you see them throw games for laughs because they are screwing around with their friends.

    The OP's project is not about showing off arena rating, it's about having fun. The design of the class currently is arranged around this laser focused script, everything about getting maximum tempo and value out of every single stun DR, getting a quality "go" each time. The previous design both rewarded solid fundamentals and the ability to read situations, while also providing a lot more gameplay options for spontaneity and risk taking.
    I never said he should go rank1 or just go home, he asked for advice and provided a link to a video from 8ish years ago where the majority of the skillset utilized (only one that comes to mind which isn't there anymore is Garrote if he plays as an Outlaw Rogue).
    It's quite obvious that you're on some sort of strange crusade against the current design choices made for Rogue, I've played a rogue on and off since Vanilla and although I do not necessarily agree with the overall design choices Blizzard has made throughout the lifespan of WoW (My personal favourite expansion being MoP) but in terms of class design I personally think Rogue is in a great place atm, I am especially a big fan of the Combat to Outlaw rework.
    I am just getting tired of all these nay sayers on MMO-Champ, here is a guy looking for advice about how to make fun rogue PvP videos, my response might not be the style or direction he/she was looking for, but if you ask me it's still a heck of a lot better than your reply of "Don't".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Togabito View Post
    Love your Dragon Ball edit might give it a try! Ahah sounds so good. Mind if i steal it?
    I actually do arena but am stuck in 1850 rating.
    We actually do what you said! Record the arena and learn our mistakes from the video record.

    Now....i must do your dragon ball video edit AND im starting to gather gameplay of me using the immunity frames of Death from Above
    Hey, 1850 is quite good and footage from that rating is for sure usable in PvP videos, when I mentioned Reckful it wasn't a dig at you or somehow saying that only the best of the best should make PvP videos, heck before I watched the video of him actually breaking down what he did in Reckful 3 I am pretty sure I missed like 90% of the finesse in his plays - making videos of landing that sweet sweet (Almost) perfect CC chain at a lower skill level where the more common player can actually follow the action is arguably 100 times better than seeing a R1 pull 7 different moves in the span of 6 seconds and not understanding 95% of what just happened.
    And please, do use the DBZ edit idea

  16. #16
    "ThE pLaYs ReCkFuL wAs MaKiNg ArE sTiLl PoSsIbLe ToDaY"



    If this clip were filmed today, none of the combo point management and buff management would matter to begin with.

    And what peels would be used? "OK I used Cheap Shot on both targets and blinded the Ret. The Ret BoPd out of Blind so I can't Sap. I have no more control until stuns come off DRs"

    ZZZzzzzzz this game is boring as hell.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2019-02-03 at 03:59 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    "ThE pLaYs ReCkFuL wAs MaKiNg ArE sTiLl PoSsIbLe ToDaY"


    If this clip were filmed today, none of the combo point management and buff management would matter to begin with.

    And what peels would be used? "OK I used Cheap Shot on both targets and blinded the Ret. The Ret BoPd out of Blind so I can't Sap. I have no more control until stuns come off DRs"
    I never said that the specific plays Reckful made are still possible to recreate 1 to 1 - I suggested using his playstyle as inspiration for "Outplays/Masterful things". A big chunk of the toolkit he uses is still available

    ZZZzzzzzz this game is boring as hell.
    I genuinely do not understand why you feel the need to respond to a post like this, OP is looking for some tips and tricks on how to be stylin' on his opponents and all you do is put him down, I feel sorry for you.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillemus View Post
    I never said that the specific plays Reckful made are still possible to recreate 1 to 1 - I suggested using his playstyle as inspiration for "Outplays/Masterful things". A big chunk of the toolkit he uses is still available



    I genuinely do not understand why you feel the need to respond to a post like this, OP is looking for some tips and tricks on how to be stylin' on his opponents and all you do is put him down, I feel sorry for you.
    How am I the one putting OP down? I just explained that the class is badly designed right now for OP's purposes.

    You're the one saying "haha that's not real skill go play some arenas and showcase doing the same exact scripted setup over and over again on every stun DR"

    And no a big chunk of the toolkit he uses is not still available. Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot, Blind, Sap, Shadowstep, Kick, Smokebomb are, but not Dismantle, Gouge, Garrote, Shiv (no one is picking this as a PvP talent compared to other mandatory choices like Smokebomb), Crippling Poison, Preparation. And that's just talking about the utility, not the rotation or resource management. For example Subtlety PvP only has to manage NB (Not counting FW since Dance availability trivializes it, and it's nerfed regardless so less impactful than before) and only has 3 finishers that it uses. Half of the toolkit is gone and it hasn't been replaced with anything. Stop spreading lies and misinformation.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2019-02-03 at 07:45 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    How am I the one putting OP down? I just explained that the class is badly designed right now for OP's purposes.

    You're the one saying "haha that's not real skill go play some arenas and showcase doing the same exact scripted setup over and over again on every stun DR"
    I gave my honest opinion on World PvP videos and how much merit they have, and if you want to quote me why not just grab a direct quote?

    You never explained how the class was badly designed, you just said:

    You definitely picked the wrong expansion for this project.

    I'm not saying you won't find any potential at all, but it's massively reduced for this class compared to every expansion prior to the Legion redesign.
    You're just stating what the class isn't without even elaborating on that, that's hardly an explanation of why he shouldn't try.

    And no a big chunk of the toolkit he uses is not still available. Cheap Shot, Kidney Shot, Blind, Sap, Shadowstep, Kick, Smokebomb are, but not Dismantle, Gouge, Garrote, Shiv (no one is picking this as a PvP talent compared to other mandatory choices like Smokebomb), Crippling Poison, Preparation. And that's just talking about the utility, not the rotation or resource management. For example Subtlety PvP only has to manage NB (Not counting FW since Dance availability trivializes it, and it's nerfed regardless so less impactful than before) and only has 3 finishers that it uses. Half of the toolkit is gone and it hasn't been replaced with anything. Stop spreading lies and misinformation.
    So, his first video was Outlaw rogue so if we use that as a base he will ofc not have Shadowdance or Shadowstep (but Shadowstep is more or less replaced by grappling hook), there is no garrote or prep either. As Outlaw you do have Gouge. Dismantle is a PvP talent. Crippling poison is gone, but as Outlaw you do have a ranged slow in pistol shot.
    I'm not sure why your branding what I'm saying as "Lies and Misinformation" but I guess it's easier to brand something as Fake News rather than actually having a sober debate.
    As a final note it's important to remember that every single class has had their toolkit reduced. Cata and MoP was very bloated when it came to the amount of abilities each class had, so they started pruning, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that rogues were hit harder than other classes.

  20. #20
    I have explained in great detail in this thread what it is wrong with it. Put some effort into your reading comprehension.

    "Other classes got pruned too" so that's supposed to make up for the fact that Rogue is less fun and less interesting to play? Guess what we've been pruned tremendously since WoD as well, what other class got dumpstered as badly as we did since then?

    Furthermore once again you are missing the point completely by bringing up other classes. Is this a conversation about balance? If every class in the game is less fun to play, does that make it somehow less shitty that Rogue is less fun to play?

    And who said anything about just Cata and MoP being the baseline of comparison? Compare to TBC Rogue gameplay:



    Even compared to the TBC era the class as it is designed now is boring, pruned garbage, one dimensional garbage. The biggest element of skill remaining is 1. sticking to a target and doing a rotation, and 2. getting value from each stun DR.

    It's unfortunate that you don't appreciate what a massive, massive loss this has been.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Coldkil; 2019-02-05 at 06:30 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

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