Who started the war,which lead to Garrosh's downfall?

[Syegfryed]

Strategically, attacking the Barrens makes more sense. The orcs constantly harassed his night elf allies who kept calling on the Alliance for help; by attacking the Barrens and holding ground there, he'd be able to take down Orgrimmar faster. Once Orgrimmar is down, he can retake Lordaeron at his leisure. Meanwhile if he moved to Lordaeron first, there are so many ways he could get pinned by a Horde force there.

yes, so strategically, deal with the enemy in another continent and not deal with the enemy at your door, like waow, this seems to work perfectly fine, since when their armies were in kalindor the undeads take lots of territory and destroyed some cities.

Varian was just a warmonger like Garry, he didn't rly care that much for the forsaken or what he saw, but the horde - especially the orcs -, Garry in other hand was more of strategist, since deal with theramore and would go for the NE first instead of attacking stormwind.

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@Syegfryed

Varian had just as much of a beef with the orcs as he did the Forsaken, more so since he was enslaved by one of Thrall's advisors. That and the Alliance could easily extrapolate that the Kalimdor Horde was turning a blind eye to the Forsaken for reasons of expedience, since that's what was happening.

yeah thats what im saying, if the problem was the forsaken and what he saw he could deal with that, but it was not it was the whole horde.

[Super Dickmann]

yeah thats what im saying, if the problem was the forsaken and what he saw he could deal with that, but it was not it was the whole horde.

Funnily enough, before Varian was turned into the beta test for what his son would go on to be, his motive for war was more selfish than Garrosh's, because Garrosh himself hadn't suffered shit from the Alliance, he was just reacting to the needs of the orcs. Varian on the other hand had his antipathy built squarely on his personal experiences.

[steelballfc]

No idea what you mean exactly. I am just sharing my opinion.

then don't open old wounds, it's like don't mentioned alliance high-elf.

[Felixon]

So,the war we are fighting now is a reskin of previous war:
Wrathgate/Broken Shore disaster happens - a misunderstanding;
Battle for Undercity/Stormeim - Alliance declares a war - based on the misunderstanding and old hatreds
Theramore bombing/Burning of Teldrassil - Alliance gets punched in the face
Garrosh sends assasins after Vol'jin/ Sylvanas sends assasins after Saurfang;
Vol'jin seeks allies to start the rebellion / Saurfang seeks allies to start the rebellion
Vol'jin starts the rebellion / Saurfang starts the rebellion?
Garrosh obtains the heart of Y'shaarj/ Sylvanas obtains .....

Not sure should I even continue... So fitting for an expansion,in which the main feature is reskins of existing races,to be the reskin of the previous expansion as well.

[Syegfryed]

So,the war we are fighting now is a reskin of previous war:

not just the war, the entire expansion is a rehashed version of MOP so they can pull a Shyamalan in the end then they can say it was not MOP 2.0

tortolans are the BfA version of pandas

[Airwaves]

The Night Elves did nothing of the sort. They have no duty to trade with people who constantly attack him. It was Thrall's choice to settle his people in a desert. Blame Thrall.
I mean this is the view point that the British were perfectly OK to attack China cause it would not sell them tea, I guess Garrosh should have tried to get Night Elves hooked on blow first.

So what was he meant to do? Just let everyone die?

[steelballfc]

not just the war, the entire expansion is a rehashed version of MOP so they can pull a Shyamalan in the end then they can say it was not MOP 2.0

tortolans are the BfA version of pandas

tortolans : let her stand trial in Dazar'alor

[Felixon]

not just the war, the entire expansion is a rehashed version of MOP so they can pull a Shyamalan in the end then they can say it was not MOP 2.0

tortolans are the BfA version of pandas

"My people - more than any other".

[Varodoc]

King Varian started it de-jure at the end of the Battle of the Undercity. But in reality, Sylvanas started it by ordering the Wrathgate, and later on Garrosh escalated the hostilies by attacking an Alliance vessel in The Shattering.

In BfA,there were sources,which mentioned,that she could've known about this attack all along.

You forgot to mention the boss of the writing team literally stating that she ordered the Wrathgate, and we all know what happened at the Wrathgate, and why that accursed event is infamously known as one of the greatest betrayals in history. When Grand Apothecary Putress, under Sylvanas' orders, unleashed the deadly Blight, he didn't just damage the Lich King, he also shattered the dreams of peace that Thrall and Jaina shared.

[Felixon]

King Varian started it de-jure at the end of the Battle of the Undercity. But in reality, Sylvanas started it by ordering the Wrathgate, and later on Garrosh escalated the hostilies by attacking an Alliance vessel in The Shattering.



You forgot to mention the boss of the writing team literally stating that she ordered the Wrathgate, and we all know what happened at the Wrathgate, and why that accursed event is infamously known as one of the greatest betrayals in history. When Grand Apothecary Putress, under Sylvanas' orders, unleashed the deadly Blight, he didn't just damage the Lich King, he also shattered the dreams of peace that Thrall and Jaina shared.

But that would make no sense - at least for that time Sylvanas. Varimathras was commanded by Sargeras himself and he answered to his call - what Sylvanas would have to do with the Burning Legion?

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Thrall? Move the orcs to a place where they could survive. Feralas only has a few Night Elf scouts, extensive ruins and many resources. There is natural growth space in Desolace and Thousand Needles. They could still have had a smaller population living in Durotar to control the area.

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Well I am always told by Blood Elf fans that they hate the Alliance because Garithos was Alliance. If we have to agree to that, then he was also betrayed by Sylvanas and murdered in cold blood. Her very first act as a ruler was to purge Lordaeron of humans. And then we are to be surprised that humans rebuffed her.

Except,he had nothing to do with the current Alliance. The Alliance of Lordaeron was a different faction which ceased to exist,when the last forces of Garithos were killed.

[Varodoc]

But that would make no sense - at least for that time Sylvanas. Varimathras was commanded by Sargeras himself and he answered to his call - what Sylvanas would have to do with the Burning Legion?

The fact that Varimathras was still loyal to Sargeras isn't relevant. Sylvanas wanted to commit suicide after the Lich King was dead, so it's not like she would care about the consequences of her betrayal. So she unleashed the Blight and hoped that the Lich King would die, which he almost did. She basically realized that the Wrathgate was the best shot she had at killing Arthas, and at the same time she could have her "revenge" on the Humans and avoid the consequences (because she would have committed suicide). Her plan actually makes sense, it's just that her fanboys refuse to let go of the past, even though retcons happen in literally every story.

Of course, as I was saying, Sylvanas ordering the Wrathgate and Varimathras planning to betray her do not depend on each other. Why should they? Varimathras didn't need the incident at the Wrathgate to backstab Sylvanas and summon Sargeras, he would have done so regardless of that.

Except,he had nothing to do with the current Alliance. The Alliance of Lordaeron was a different faction which ceased to exist,when the last forces of Garithos were killed.

Except that he had. Several Alliance leaders, chief among them King Magni Bronzebeard, saw him as the strongest warlord in the region and decided to send him troops. Why do you think Garithos had dwarves in his army?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Well,back then it was stated,that it was Putress,who betrayed Sylvanas and it was all behind her back. In BfA,there were sources,which mentioned,that she could've known about this attack all along.

Thats some No True Scotsman bullshit. You can't shrug your shoulders at something like the Wrathgate because it was technically Putress, and not Sylvanas who ordered the attack.

[Felixon]

The fact that Varimathras was still loyal to Sargeras isn't relevant. Sylvanas wanted to commit suicide after the Lich King was dead, so it's not like she would care about the consequences of her betrayal. So she unleashed the Blight and hoped that the Lich King would die, which he almost did. She basically realized that the Wrathgate was the best shot she had at killing Arthas, and at the same time she could have her "revenge" on the Humans and avoid the consequences (because she would have committed suicide). Her plan actually makes sense, it's just that her fanboys refuse to let go of the past, even though retcons happen in literally every story.

Of course, as I was saying, Sylvanas ordering the Wrathgate and Varimathras planning to betray her do not depend on each other. Why should they? Varimathras didn't need the incident at the Wrathgate to backstab Sylvanas and summon Sargeras, he would have done so regardless of that.



Except that he had. Several Alliance leaders, chief among them King Magni Bronzebeard, saw him as the strongest warlord in the region and decided to send him troops. Why do you think Garithos had dwarves in his army?

And the Horde was so stupid,that it's leaders actually believed her and let go 4000 of it's troops deaths uninvestigated?
Where is that mentioned,that Magni sent him forces and that those were not the survivors,that were stationed in Lordaeron?

[Varodoc]

And the Horde was so stupid,that it's leaders actually believed her and let go 4000 of it's troops deaths uninvestigated?

They didn't believe her, that's why she was pretty much forced to follow Garrosh's every whim to prove herself to the other Horde leaders again, and that's why Thrall sent his Kor'kron to keep the Banshee Queen under strict control.

Besides, there was no time to argue about who did what, seeing as the Lich King was still a direct threat, the Horde had just lost its main foothold in the East, and the Dark Titan himself was about to enter the world. Not a good time to investigate what happened behind the scenes, eh?

Where is that mentioned,that Magni sent him forces and that those were not the survivors,that were stationed in Lordaeron?

Taken from the Ask CDev - Round 3 with Metzen and Afrasiabi:

"Can we get some information on Garithos? Where he was from and on whose orders was he acting? Was there any significant event in his past that caused his hatred of non-human races?

Grand Marshal Othmar Garithos was the only son of a baron who ruled over lands in what would later be the Eastern Plaguelands that bordered Quel'Thalas. While his father ruled from the town of Blackwood on the shores of the similarly-named lake, Garithos joined the army as a knight during the Second War, where he saw combat in Quel'Thalas defending the elves' homeland from invading orcs. While he was in Quel'Thalas, however, a small band of orcs broke off from the main invading force and burned his home town to the ground, killing all of its inhabitants in spite of the valorous defense marshaled by its lord. Othmar's family perished doing their duty, defending the homes and lives of their subjects. He blamed the elves for the loss of his town and family, believing that the elves diverted forces away from the Alliance's true goal: the defense of humanity alone. After his father's death, Garithos was awarded his title and continued his service in the armies of Lordaeron. By the time of the Scourging of Lordaeron, he had attained the rank of Grand Marshal and was the highest ranked surviving military officer in the region, promoted not necessarily due to his own abilities, but his father's reputation and title. Cut off from the chain of command, Garithos amassed a small army of volunteers and conscripted civilians, and gave them the mission that he assumed the Alliance should have always had: the preservation of humanity above all else. Despite the ad-hoc nature of his forces, other states recognized him as potentially the last remnant of Lordaeron's government and certainly the strongest warlord in the area. As such, officials from neighboring non-human states such as Ironforge and Quel'Thalas sent him aid, ignorant of his intolerant policies."

[Syegfryed]

Thrall? Move the orcs to a place where they could survive. Feralas only has a few Night Elf scouts, extensive ruins and many resources. There is natural growth space in Desolace and Thousand Needles. They could still have had a smaller population living in Durotar to control the area.

>implying the elves there would let the orcs stay

they would probably say shit about sacred trees too, the problem was not rly the place but the elves, Durotar even being a shit place at least was no one's land close to the taurens and trolls

[Artelia]

Before they retconned Hellscream. The Night Elves forced the Orcs into a war for survival. When Thrall left the horde to Hellscream org had burnt down and the orcs were starving to death. Hellscream did the right thing and tried to trade with the Night Elves since they had resources. The Night Elves been stuck up twats refused. So Hellscream was left with no choice but to take Ashenvale for farm land or watch his people wither and die.

Now that was pretty good writing. But no they have to change it so he was always the evil one. Because apparently every part of wow lore needs to be as generic as possible now.

Before you created this post i use this in my mind as canon. When they recreated this?

[Kallisto]

And rightfully he did. What would you do if you had a punitive excursion in a hostile nation and found they tortured and experimented on your people all over the place, ask for peace and offer them trade incentives?

Scarlets were not his people. Nor were anyone not from Stormwind. All Lordaeron areas were hostile to the point they were attacking Forsaken first for the "crime" of just existing.

[Hyral]

Thrall? Move the orcs to a place where they could survive. Feralas only has a few Night Elf scouts, extensive ruins and many resources. There is natural growth space in Desolace and Thousand Needles. They could still have had a smaller population living in Durotar to control the area.

Thrall was a terrible Warchief, I think everyone agrees to that, but to say "Thrall made a wrong decision so all orcs should be fine starving to death" is ridiculous. We know what caused the problem, we are beyond that, the only solution the orcs saw was trying to trade with the neighboring people who were clearly drowning in an overabundance of resources and they were denied. What should Garrosh have done next? The elves are in no obligation to trade with the orcs sure, and the orcs are in no obligation to not kill them for food if they are dying. No matter who's fault their predicament is, Garrosh had to find a solution for his people, that's what a leader does. The elves were in the way of that solution.

[Super Dickmann]

And the Horde was so stupid,that it's leaders actually believed her and let go 4000 of it's troops deaths uninvestigated?
Where is that mentioned,that Magni sent him forces and that those were not the survivors,that were stationed in Lordaeron?

They didn't, they put the city under constant Kor'kron oversight. That's yet another reason why the line of bullshit they're selling us on Sylvanas makes no sense.

Sylvanas's sole motive at the time, per her internal narration, was to kill the Lich King. The Horde and Forsaken were a means to that end. We see from the cinematic itself that the catapults can be aimed to hit specific groups. Putress specifically sought to gas the living and the undead. Sylvanas however only had an interest in killing the Lich King. Dropping the entire arsenal on him raises the chance that he would die. Dropping one in his vague proximity and the rest over the Horde and Alliance gains her absolutely fuck all. In fact, it reduces her chance of killing the Lich King, her sole purpose in life.

You know what also reduces her chance of killing the Lich King? Having her city under the Warchief's direct oversight and drawing huge amounts of suspicion on herself, something with a higher chance of happening if she say, randomly attacked the Warchief's troops for no tangible benefit. The risk to reward ratio is massively tilted against Sylvanas and attacking the gathered forces there has zero benefit. She has no in-story motive to do it, going by her only stated motivation of wanting to kill the Lich King. It's not about being evil, it's about not being below the line of mental retardation.

This is without bringing up that the Forsaken intro and every piece of prior lore, including the actions of Varimathras and Putress directly contradict that interpretation of events. But they've settled on this nonsense and so help them they're going to push it. Next stop, Sylvanas engineered the Scourge invasion and opened the Dark Portal.

[Super Dickmann]

What exactly was she even doing to help kill the Lich King though? That's always been an idiocy in lore I did not see addressed. She was obviously not behind the efforts of the Forsaken cause if she was, she'd have had a clue what would soon happen. For someone with a single purpose in life, she was extremely hands off with the whole Northrend campaign.

The Hand of Vengeance was the main Horde faction except the Warsong Offensive, and they were preparing the plague to be dropped on the Lich King as well as making inroads into Howling Fjord and Dragonblight. Sylvanas did order the Blight created and I can even buy that she authorized it to be used against the Lich King at the Wrathgate, with Putress being the one to decide to use it against everyone instead and trigger his and Varimathras's coup. Up to that point, the Forsaken were pretty involved.

After that the Undercity was under martial law so the Forsaken stopped being involved, but Sylvanas herself was in all the ICC dungeons and personally tried to kill Arthas, despite being outmatched. Incidentally another reason why this retcon is bad, since Sylvanas has always been the kind to see the results of her work up close, especially something that was the reason for her existence.