Calia and the Desolate Council (spoilers for Before the Storm)

[Hugnomo]

Noticing Derek's new model, and the hint of Calia's possible appearance in-game in the near future (maybe to help Derek's "state"), my interest for an undead lightforged allied race has arisen once more.

So I have a question for those of you who read Before The Storm by Christie Golden:
If the much speculated on lightforged undead allied race comes to be with Calia leading it, would you wish for her to raise the Desolate Council once more?
I loved the Desolate Council in the book, all they wanted was to see their human family members. And Calia inadvertently got them killed instead. Could she grant them their wish be raising them into lightforged undead on the alliance, rewarding their bravery with the comfort of reuniting with their families? (I guess Elsie has no one left but still).

Their tombs are in-game, in Arathi.

[derpkitteh]

i would have preferred they be the new leaders of the forsaken, after sylvanas' death. it's a shame they were wasted like that.

i don't know if i'd like for them to be raised by calia. i guess, but it would be different since they would be lightforged.

[Hugnomo]

i would have preferred they be the new leaders of the forsaken, after sylvanas' death. it's a shame they were wasted like that.

i don't know if i'd like for them to be raised by calia. i guess, but it would be different since they would be lightforged.

Do you think they'd still return to the horde? In essence, they defected at the meeting. Maybe with Sylvanas gone I guess. Either way, in whatever capacity they come back I would be happy, I really enjoyed them.

[Whitedragon]

Do you think they'd still return to the horde? In essence, they defected at the meeting. Maybe with Sylvanas gone I guess. Either way, in whatever capacity they come back I would be happy, I really enjoyed them.

They didn't defect Sylvanas just used the confusion as a good opportunity to get rid of them.

[derpkitteh]

Do you think they'd still return to the horde? In essence, they defected at the meeting. Maybe with Sylvanas gone I guess. Either way, in whatever capacity they come back I would be happy, I really enjoyed them.

no, i don't. i think they would side with calia.

what i meant is that i would have preferred they not died in the first place. a leadership comprised of a council of rulers would make the forsaken more interesting than a singular queen imo. but that's no longer an option.

[omeomorfismo]

desolate council was a plague that luckily died in the same book where they were introduced.
apparently, in a society full of sociopaths, with all high rankings like apothecaries, deathstalkers, deathguards and dark rangers fully sadistic, having suddendly an entire government composed of wannabe bartolomews, a freak that went with the argents crusader since vanilla, is perfectly fine. for reasons...

but unluckily now we have that shitty undead calia that as a sword of damocles is over the forsaken's characterization. i can only hope that she will stay far away from horde and forsakens otherwise we will be murdered in the next honor shit human potential meme like varok and baine or even night elfs...

[Hugnomo]

no, i don't. i think they would side with calia.

what i meant is that i would have preferred they not died in the first place. a leadership comprised of a council of rulers would make the forsaken more interesting than a singular queen imo. but that's no longer an option.

I completely agree.

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desolate council was a plague that luckily died in the same book where they were introduced.
apparently, in a society full of sociopaths, with all high rankings like apothecaries, deathstalkers, deathguards and dark rangers fully sadistic, having suddendly an entire government composed of wannabe bartolomews, a freak that went with the argents crusader since vanilla, is perfectly fine. for reasons...

but unluckily now we have that shitty undead calia that as a sword of damocles is over the forsaken's characterization. i can only hope that she will stay far away from horde and forsakens otherwise we will be murdered in the next honor shit human potential meme like varok and baine or even night elfs...

I mean, I too think that Calia's and the Desolate Council's characterization and themes clash with the Forsaken identity and reason why players such as yourself enjoy them. Which is why I don't think Calia will ever be the Forsaken leader (as others have speculated). But an undead light race on the alliance? I see it. And I even think it has potential to be interesting in a completely different way. Their connection to the light having them thematically more righteous and lawful than the forsaken, but also dangerously obedient (as the light has shown to be strict doctrine i.e. Xera), distinctly contrasting with the paramount free will of the forsaken.
So while the forsaken remain the decrepit, metal victorian dr. frankensteins, the lightforged undead could stand as the baroque disciples of the light, martyrs and bartholomews as you put it, both retaining and affirming their identities on each faction, without diluting their themes.

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They didn't defect Sylvanas just used the confusion as a good opportunity to get rid of them.

Some did. Some didn't. Sylvanas indeed took the oportunity to get rid of them all.

[omeomorfismo]

I completely agree.

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I mean, I too think that Calia's and the Desolate Council's characterization and themes clash with the Forsaken identity and reason why players such as yourself enjoy them. Which is why I don't think Calia will ever be the Forsaken leader (as others have speculated). But an undead light race on the alliance? I see it. And I even think it has potential to be interesting in a completely different way. Their connection to the light having them thematically more righteous and lawful than the forsaken, but also dangerously obedient (as the light has shown to be strict doctrine i.e. Xera), distinctly contrasting with the paramount free will of the forsaken.
So while the forsaken remain the decrepit, metal victorian dr. frankensteins, the lightforged undead could stand as the baroque disciples of the light, martyrs and bartholomews as you put it, both retaining and affirming their identities on each faction, without diluting their themes.

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Some did. Some didn't. Sylvanas indeed took the oportunity to get rid of them all.

the main problem in your optimism is that literally half of the forsaken characterization was their unaccepted state of undeath, they were hated, shunned, even hunted for their very being.
giving undeads to ally will simply erase that. (and i know, ally has dk, but they were "justified" as little more than mercenary, still hated btw)

and thats without touching all the night elf problem that it would generate

[Aurabolt]

If the much speculated on lightforged undead allied race comes to be with Calia leading it, would you wish for her to raise the Desolate Council once more?

I feel like if Blizzard truly intended to build on the game-changing possabilities the Desolate Council would have introduced--specifically the council serving as a check to Sylvanas and mediator between the The Undercity and Stormwind--they wouldn't have been killed off along with the Forsaken who had been accepted by their living family members. I think the fact that Sylvanas is Warchief is the driving reason why the Desolate Council HAD to be killed off. The other Forsaken + Calia were collateral. If she wasn't, she probably would have let the Forsaken with living family members defect. Calia would've died regardless since she was presented as someone who was a credible threat to her as ruler of Lordaeron.

I hope I'm surprised but do feel like the direct fallout from suppression of the Desolate Council won't be revisited until later on. There have been zero references to it since the expansion launched aside from speculation involving Derek Proudmoore. LF Undead sounds a bit too...contrived to me. Calia is a unique case as is Alonsus Faol, who is also Undead but not aligned with the Forsaken.

What sounds more likely to me is a large number of Forsaken decide to split from Sylvanas and more so when word spreads of what she tried to do with Derek. The one thing that set Sylvanas apart from the Lich King especially post-Cata is the New Forsaken retain their free will. Everyone is given the freedom to choose if they want to willingly serve Sylvanas and the Horde or not. Those who don't can either leave or have their second death as long as they don't become a problem to be put down in time. The post-Cata Forsaken intro quest chain involves putting down some rogue Forsaken outside Deathknell so...yeah.

If she starts robbing Undead of their free will, you can be damned sure a lot of people will have a big problem with that. That's the one thing I could see that would cause a split from within the Forsaken. Calia could make the case Sylvanas only sees the Forsaken as fodder for the Horde War Machine and wants to take them back to their days as mindless Scourge: "Those who don't serve The Banshee Queen willingly will be made to do so."

[Hugnomo]

the main problem in your optimism is that literally half of the forsaken characterization was their unaccepted state of undeath, they were hated, shunned, even hunted for their very being.
giving undeads to ally will simply erase that. (and i know, ally has dk, but they were "justified" as little more than mercenary, still hated btw)

and thats without touching all the night elf problem that it would generate

I guess, but that ship has already sailed with Before the Storm. Humans get to see forsaken as individuals and embrace them, heck, even Gen comes to that realization.

The night elf problem? As in Night elves not accepting forsaken into the alliance's ranks because of Teldrassil? The Desolate council were killed prior to that and had no responsibility in it, and we don't know if Calia would make up a race of defecting forsaken, or raise new ones. (New ones wouldn't trigger night elves since they would not have been responsible for teldrassil either). Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, I apologize if I am!

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I feel like if Blizzard truly intended to build on the game-changing possabilities the Desolate Council would have introduced--specifically the council serving as a check to Sylvanas and mediator between the The Undercity and Stormwind--they wouldn't have been killed off along with the Forsaken who had been accepted by their living family members. I think the fact that Sylvanas is Warchief is the driving reason why the Desolate Council HAD to be killed off. The other Forsaken + Calia were collateral. If she wasn't, she probably would have let the Forsaken with living family members defect. Calia would've died regardless since she was presented as someone who was a credible threat to her as ruler of Lordaeron.

I hope I'm surprised but do feel like the direct fallout from suppression of the Desolate Council won't be revisited until later on. There have been zero references to it since the expansion launched aside from speculation involving Derek Proudmoore. LF Undead sounds a bit too...contrived to me. Calia is a unique case as is Alonsus Faol, who is also Undead but not aligned with the Forsaken.

What sounds more likely to me is a large number of Forsaken decide to split from Sylvanas and more so when word spreads of what she tried to do with Derek. The one thing that set Sylvanas apart from the Lich King especially post-Cata is the New Forsaken retain their free will. Everyone is given the freedom to choose if they want to willingly serve Sylvanas and the Horde or not. Those who don't can either leave or have their second death as long as they don't become a problem to be put down in time. The post-Cata Forsaken intro quest chain involves putting down some rogue Forsaken outside Deathknell so...yeah.

If she starts robbing Undead of their free will, you can be damned sure a lot of people will have a big problem with that. That's the one thing I could see that would cause a split from within the Forsaken. Calia could make the case Sylvanas only sees the Forsaken as fodder for the Horde War Machine and wants to take them back to their days as mindless Scourge: "Those who don't serve The Banshee Queen willingly will be made to do so."

Forsaken defecting because of Sylvanas denying free will to Derek is a reasonable idea. It's their most fundamental tenet as a race.
Regarding setup and hints towards it, I will agree that there haven't been many. But the Desolate Council's tombs in Arathi, and Jaina asking about Calia are exciting small things that give me hope
Jaina may ask for Calia's help in regards to her undead brother? his new model has white eyes, like Calia is described to have after being rezzed. maybe this new model comes into existence after a Calia intervention, and the first example of a lightforged undead? whishful thinking

[Jekyll]

I really hope if we get to play these light bound undeads, they would spawn in the crypt inside Uther's tomb, as a throwback to vanilla undead spawn point.

And also please let them be hunters as well, unlike vanilla human and undead.

And to make things spicier, let them be druids well, and they can share kul tiran forms but with light magic glowing tint instead of green and blue.

[Super Dickmann]

Hopefully they stay in the ditch where they belong and Calia follows them. The Nu-Forsaken are among Blizzard's worst ideas in an expansion full of them. Put Voss in charge as a compromise candidate and forget this whole nonsense ever happened.

[Amaterasu65]

Hopefully they stay in the ditch where they belong and Calia follows them. The Nu-Forsaken are among Blizzard's worst ideas in an expansion full of them. Put Voss in charge as a compromise candidate and forget this whole nonsense ever happened.

Voss or Nathanos are gonna be the future Forsaken leaders because Calia was never meant to be Horde.

[Verdugo]

I like Lightforged Undead.

Then keep it to yourself.

[omeomorfismo]

I guess, but that ship has already sailed with Before the Storm. Humans get to see forsaken as individuals and embrace them, heck, even Gen comes to that realization.

The night elf problem? As in Night elves not accepting forsaken into the alliance's ranks because of Teldrassil? The Desolate council were killed prior to that and had no responsibility in it, and we don't know if Calia would make up a race of defecting forsaken, or raise new ones. (New ones wouldn't trigger night elves since they would not have been responsible for teldrassil either). Or maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, I apologize if I am!

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Forsaken defecting because of Sylvanas denying free will to Derek is a reasonable idea. It's their most fundamental tenet as a race.
Regarding setup and hints towards it, I will agree that there haven't been many. But the Desolate Council's tombs in Arathi, and Jaina asking about Calia are exciting small things that give me hope
Jaina may ask for Calia's help in regards to her undead brother? his new model has white eyes, like Calia is described to have after being rezzed. maybe this new model comes into existence after a Calia intervention, and the first example of a lightforged undead? whishful thinking

and thats exactly the reason because desolate council was easily one of the worst thing about the book, and why blizzard is on the brick of destroying even forsaken characterization.

and no, night elf problem because they are inherently a druidic society that, logically, should never accept "abominations" and "blasphemy" like and entire undead population. damn, even humans shouldnt even accept undead considering how sticked they are with light religion. even the entire faol and turalyon speak actually doesnt make any sense

[Amaterasu65]

Nathanos doesn't give a shit about the Forsaken. There is no chance that Sylvanas will go away and Nathanos will not follow her.

Nathanos had shown some small signs that he isn't that fond of current Sylvanas' mannerisms. If Sylvanas ever betrays his trust and loyalty it might be a wake up call for him. If they're gonna throw him in our faces so much, why not develop him in a way other than what we've seen so far?

[Amaterasu65]

Sylvanas comes first is what Nathanos is about. He might feel some remorse to better humanize him but he will die for his queen. Actually making him suddenly care for the Forsaken OVER Sylvanas would seem completely weird. Voss on the other hand was reintroduced with a very clear narrative in mind from her first interaction in BfA. She is all about caring for new Forsaken.

Thing about Voss is that she's somehow irrelevant, a veeery side character at best. If this expansion is the last where Sylvanas leads the Forsaken, Voss getting the mantle next expansion when she's kinda unknown to most Forsaken is kinda ugh.

[Amaterasu65]

What mantle? Voss would be unlikely to act as Queen. There would be a new Desolate Council and Voss would represent the Forsaken in the Horde councils.

The mantle of leadership. Also doubt a never before seen council would be a good alternative. Lackluster. Voss' redeeming quality is her humanity, she shows sympathy for the Forsaken's fate. She would probably be like Thrall, trying to make the Forsaken more peaceful than genocidal with plague and what not.

[omeomorfismo]

The mantle of leadership. Also doubt a never before seen council would be a good alternative. Lackluster. Voss' redeeming quality is her humanity, she shows sympathy for the Forsaken's fate. She would probably be like Thrall, trying to make the Forsaken more peaceful than genocidal with plague and what not.

redeeming? in the forsaken? she would stay far away from the forsakens. forsaken peaceful? why?

[Super Dickmann]

The mantle of leadership. Also doubt a never before seen council would be a good alternative. Lackluster. Voss' redeeming quality is her humanity, she shows sympathy for the Forsaken's fate. She would probably be like Thrall, trying to make the Forsaken more peaceful than genocidal with plague and what not.

Voss has zero problem with killing or blight. She uses both and she happily leads the alliance into a chase to get them blown up by explosives, so their leader's corpse can be harvested for raising. She's still Forsaken after all. What nu-Voss has to her advantage, is that her care for them is genuine but she still has most of their core themes intact. My preferred candidate is still Nathanos, but Voss is safer.
@Nymrohd

The concept of Lightforged undead would actually be interesting if they weren't hacks afraid to show the Alliance display a hint of moral ambiguity. Think about it like this. Your regular Forsaken needs no food, water or rest. He is functionally immortal in the long term. What binds him to humanity are the grudges, regrets and despair his state infuses on him. That the other races can enjoy things he never can and that the alternative to his state is oblivion.

Your Lightforged Forsaken would lack any of these negative emotions. On the contrary, the Lightforged undead is essentially a biological machine. Immortal, tireless and constantly happy because of the Light. And yet, all around them is carnage, war and wastefulness. Work with that. To be undead is to be cursed, but where your regular Forsaken gets these from a dark place, the Lightforged would view them more with pity. They are effectively perfect and self-sufficient and require nothing. In the Light we are one after all, and were everyone as enlightened, they'd be provably happier - after all, they are as compared to their miserable existence as regular undead.

Of course, this will never be used. Calia is just a perfect samaritan and the lightforged Forsaken will easily integrate into the Alliance/Horde. But the concept has potential.