Do you support Alliance genocide of Horde races?

[TheImperios]

Of course it is. Senseless slaughter is the only thing the Horde races exist for.

Orcs, trolls, zombies do nothing but kill and consume no matter the franchise. They are monster races, not people.

And how do you deal with evil monsters? You exterminate them. Genocide it is.

[Flarelaine]

Yet, they still walk.

Which is conduct unbecoming a corpse, don't you think?

[TheImperios]

> Genocide
> Fun

Pick one.

Seriously speaking, while it may be politically incorrect to call it "fun", genocide is an interesting thing to explore in a story. There's a reason Schindler's List is considered a masterpiece. Great atrocities are perfect environments for exploring the condition of the human (and in our case, not only human) soul; how catastrophe can awaken the best, or the worst, within its survivors, how it perpetrators deal with pain and guilt, either by lying to themselves and justifying their crimes, or by striving towards redemption.

The only reason the Burning of Teldrassil was bad (outside Sylvanas's poor motivation and catapults that shoot over the sea) was because they did not explore its conequences. Saurfang was the only Horde character who reacted to the Burning in any meaningful way. Imagine if Sylvanas was actually a person with feelings, rather than a mindless killing machine. How would she have reacted once she realised what she had done? And what of the soldiers who fired the catapults? Ivan the Terrible spent half his life praying for repentance for his atrocities. Sakharov, the inventor of the hydrogen bomb, was so terrified by the thing he created that he became a dedicated pacifist. But no, no self-reflection whatsoever from Sylvanas. Apparently, finding her sister's necklace can make her cry and break into song, but killing thousands of civilians? Nah.

And what of the Alliance? The only person to show any shock over the Burning of Teldrassil is Delaryn, and even that is only to justify her defection. The rest of the Alliance are still as noble and pure as ever. People do not work like that. Just look at WW2: after the Nazis tried to exterminate the Slavs, the response of the USSR was brutal. The Soviet army ran over Germany like a storm, raping and pillaging left and right. Why wasn't there such a response from the night elves? Where are the orcish children slaughtered by the vengeful kaldorei in retribution?

That's why Horde genocide could be great. For the Alliance, it would represent a moral dilemma: ensure lasting peace by destroying the belligerent Horde, or spare it, but risk future conflicts? It would also show how war can twist even the naturally noble people, and how hate and grief can make you as bad as your enemy. For the Horde, it would be a great motivator to participate in the story, greater than anything Sylvanas could provide. What is more compelling: to fight because some emo elf told you "Yeah the Alliance's going to attack us eventually", or for the survival and freedom of your very race? A lot of drama could be squeezed from such a storyline.

[Verdugo]

Which is conduct unbecoming a corpse, don't you think?

You can tell it to that corpse in person.

[Techno-Druid]

Seriously speaking, while it may be politically incorrect to call it "fun", genocide is an interesting thing to explore in a story. There's a reason Schindler's List is considered a masterpiece. Great atrocities are perfect environments for exploring the condition of the human (and in our case, not only human) soul; how catastrophe can awaken the best, or the worst, within its survivors, how it perpetrators deal with pain and guilt, either by lying to themselves and justifying their crimes, or by striving towards redemption.

The only reason the Burning of Teldrassil was bad (outside Sylvanas's poor motivation and catapults that shoot over the sea) was because they did not explore its conequences. Saurfang was the only Horde character who reacted to the Burning in any meaningful way. Imagine if Sylvanas was actually a person with feelings, rather than a mindless killing machine. How would she have reacted once she realised what she had done? And what of the soldiers who fired the catapults? Ivan the Terrible spent half his life praying for repentance for his atrocities. Sakharov, the inventor of the hydrogen bomb, was so terrified by the thing he created that he became a dedicated pacifist. But no, no self-reflection whatsoever from Sylvanas. Apparently, finding her sister's necklace can make her cry and break into song, but killing thousands of civilians? Nah.

And what of the Alliance? The only person to show any shock over the Burning of Teldrassil is Delaryn, and even that is only to justify her defection. The rest of the Alliance are still as noble and pure as ever. People do not work like that. Just look at WW2: after the Nazis tried to exterminate the Slavs, the response of the USSR was brutal. The Soviet army ran over Germany like a storm, raping and pillaging left and right. Why wasn't there such a response from the night elves? Where are the orcish children slaughtered by the vengeful kaldorei in retribution?

That's why Horde genocide could be great. For the Alliance, it would represent a moral dilemma: ensure lasting peace by destroying the belligerent Horde, or spare it, but risk future conflicts? It would also show how war can twist even the naturally noble people, and how hate and grief can make you as bad as your enemy. For the Horde, it would be a great motivator to participate in the story, greater than anything Sylvanas could provide. What is more compelling: to fight because some emo elf told you "Yeah the Alliance's going to attack us eventually", or for the survival and freedom of your very race? A lot of drama could be squeezed from such a storyline.

The problem is that Blizzard can't really do genocides properly. At this point, pretty much every race has gone through a genocide or ethnic cleansing of some kind at this point and it's just not very interesting. Especially with most of the races having fought alongside each other sporadically for years now.

[Flarelaine]

No, because this is not real world and undead are a race, like it or not. Show understanding for differences or be a racists.

Oh, it's not racism, it's vitalism.

But then again, they are only a race in game mechanic terms. Otherwise, they are humans suffering from an affliction.

[Eggroll]

Oh, you mean the typical "they're not Alliance until it's convenient to the argument" trick.

No, it means when someone had to sacrifice themselves to save others there WAS NOT enough time for everyone to get off..

That didn't factor in any material that followed.

Exactly, thanks for proving my point. The Horde didn't honor the treaty, and Manduin the chicken didn't honor Varian's promise to end the Horde if they fail to uphold honor again.

[ausoin]

first war started by orcs.

The same orcs that started the war with the Dreanei, who werent then in the Alliance but neither was Stomrwind back then.

4)Kul'tiras attacking Horde as a member of alliance in founding of Durotar so alliance started it.

Thrall attacked Alliance outposts and stoled Alliance ships, for a good cause, but he technically started it.

5)Alliance troops killed a forsaken diplomat sent to stormwind before start of vanilla(chronicles 3), which is considered a declaration of war led to battle of southshore.

Actually, it wasn't confirmed they were killed, Sylvanas expected so because they never returned, but it doesn't mean they killed them instead of countless of other threats between Stormwind and Lordaeron. That being said it wouldn't be surprising if they did kill them.

6)Alliance attacking Alterac mountains in vanilla and trying to wipe out frostwolf which didn't take part in second war.

Same as the Warsong attacking the NE in vanilla, you didnt add them to the list. Or the Forsaken attacking humans in Arathi. Both of which lead to the two battlegrounds.

9)Forsakens attacking Gilneas before they joined alliance.

Why count that as neutral and not the first war since there wasnt even an Alliance then?

[Terongor]

The same orcs that started the war with the Dreanei, who werent then in the Alliance but neither was Stomrwind back then.



Thrall attacked Alliance outposts and stoled Alliance ships, for a good cause, but he technically started it.



Actually, it wasn't confirmed they were killed, Sylvanas expected so because they never returned, but it doesn't mean they killed them instead of countless of other threats between Stormwind and Lordaeron. That being said it wouldn't be surprising if they did kill them.


Same as the Warsong attacking the NE in vanilla, you didnt add them to the list. Or the Forsaken attacking humans in Arathi. Both of which lead to the two battlegrounds.



Why count that as neutral and not the first war since there wasnt even an Alliance then?

Draenai wiped out orchiss clans down to everysingle woman and children they could find before the war against draenai started. Also other orc clans didn't know the truth and they were told it happened unprovoked. So as draenai made the first move they started the war.

Also counting pre lord of the clans stuff here is in many ways wrong as we are comparing alliance and horde doings. As metzen said old horde and current horde are differant as such are responsible what others has done. Same as new horde and fel horde are differant.

That alliance outpost captured Grom hellscream and warsong clan as they were just moving by.

Its heavily imblied and alliance humans in lordaeron area before start of vanilla attacked forsakens and thinking they were scourge so still alliance started it.

The outpost was started in wc3 by Grom and has being active eversince and nelfs attacked it first in wc3 and still keep attacking it as it just collects wood. I didn't count it as it started before nelfs joined the alliance and they started it.

I didn't count that neutral... I counted the third war as neutral.... as it was started by Scourge and Legion.

[ausoin]

Draenai wiped out orchiss clans down to everysingle woman and children they could find before the war against draenai started. Also other orc clans didn't know the truth and they were told it happened unprovoked. So as draenai made the first move they started the war.

When did that happen?

Also counting pre lord of the clans stuff here is in many ways wrong as we are comparing alliance and horde doings. As metzen said old horde and current horde are differant as such are responsible what others has done. Same as new horde and fel horde are differant

But you used the first and second war as a Horde point, so...

That alliance outpost captured Grom hellscream and warsong clan as they were just moving by.

Thrall attacked Interment camps, battled against Alliance soldiers and knights, and stoled ships. He started it. The Warsong were still figting their Second war with the humans since they evaded capture.

Its heavily imblied and alliance humans in lordaeron area before start of vanilla attacked forsakens and thinking they were scourge so still alliance started it.

No its the other way around, most non Scarlet humans were just farmers driven to paranoia because of the raids from Brill. Also before the start of vanilla the Forsaken turned against human soldiers under Garithos despite promising them Lordareon if they helped them, though they werent part of Stormwinds alliance.

And the survivors in Tirisfal arent even in the Alliance.

The outpost was started in wc3 by Grom and has being active eversince and nelfs attacked it first in wc3 and still keep attacking it as it just collects wood. I didn't count it as it started before nelfs joined the alliance and they started it.

An outpost on foreign territory, after they discovered it was occupied they didn't left, it was NE lands and they stayed and chopped woods despite knowing it wasnt their land.

I didn't count that neutral... I counted the third war as neutral.... as it was started by Scourge and Legion.

My mistake.

[Terongor]

When did that happen?



But you used the first and second war as a Horde point, so...



Thrall attacked Interment camps, battled against Alliance soldiers and knights, and stoled ships. He started it. The Warsong were still figting their Second war with the humans since they evaded capture.



No its the other way around, most non Scarlet humans were just farmers driven to paranoia because of the raids from Brill. Also before the start of vanilla the Forsaken turned against human soldiers under Garithos despite promising them Lordareon if they helped them, though they werent part of Stormwinds alliance.



An outpost on foreign territory, after they discovered it was occupied they didn't left, it was NE lands and they stayed and chopped woods despite knowing it wasnt their land.


My mistake.

During draenor bladewind clan a year before war of against the draenai started.

Yeah I added them here to be fair in a way.

So Thrall attacked camps were countless innocent orchiss woman and children were starved to death, forced to kill each other on gladiatorial combat and were done magical experiments by kirin tor and warsong clan only fought in aftermath of the second war trying to prevent alliance from chasing ner'zhul into draenor which ended when horde of draenor was destroyed. also chronicles 3 stated neither started a war and chronicles 3 stated it Daelin who started the war because orcs murdered his son with red dragons which were btw dragonmaw which weren't part of the horde in wc3.

I meant the humans in hillsbrad foothills area and in vanilla dalaran troops in silverpine were friendly to alliance but triedti wipe out forsakens.

As they had no knowledge of borders when they made the outpost and NE didn't send diplomats asking them to leave the first thing they sent was an armed force to slaughter them while yes they were technically right to attack, but they still didn't try to solve it diplomatically as such they started the war.

[ausoin]

During draenor bladewind clan a year before war of against the draenai started.

The Bladewind attacked the Dreanei first. They attacked and raided Dreanei caravans and enslaved those they captured, one such person was Marads own sister who was raped and she later gave birth to Garona.

So Thrall attacked camps were countless innocent orchiss woman and children were starved to death, forced to kill each other on gladiatorial combat and were done magical experiments by kirin tor and warsong clan only fought in aftermath of the second war trying to prevent alliance from chasing ner'zhul into draenor which ended when horde of draenor was destroyed. also chronicles 3 stated neither started a war and chronicles 3 stated it Daelin who started the war because orcs murdered his son with red dragons which were btw dragonmaw which weren't part of the horde in wc3.

Thrall attacked the Alliance first, period, what was being done in the camps means nothing in this context.
They kept amongst others all the orcs that came and invaded Azeroth, the orcs that Thrall wanted to free, who later had children in the camps but Thrall still attacked the Alliance first. He attacked to free prisoners of war, its not like he just took those that had nothing to do with the war.

Grom after the defeat of Nerzhull Horde continued to avoid capture. That Alliance outpost had every right to imprison him.

I meant the humans in hillsbrad foothills area and in vanilla dalaran troops in silverpine were friendly to alliance but triedti wipe out forsakens.

The Forsaken started attacking Southshore first, and they tried to claim Arathi as well. If I'm not mistaken there weren't any texts that said the Hilsbrad peasants were going all out and invading the otherwise peaceful Forsaken territory for no reason.

Arch Lord Varimathras had sent his agents to spy on the humans of Hillsbrad for some time.[3] When the time was right, Varimathras had High Executor Darthalia wage war on the humans of Hillsbrad so that they could quell humanity and buy their apothecaries enough time to develop the new plague

As they had no knowledge of borders when they made the outpost and NE didn't send diplomats asking them to leave the first thing they sent was an armed force to slaughter them while yes they were technically right to attack, but they still didn't try to solve it diplomatically as such they started the war.

The orcs and NE allied afterward meaning any war stopped the second the Warchief himself allied with them, but the orcs still remained after that and continued to chop trees. Which directly led to their alliance breaking.

[Terongor]

The Bladewind attacked the Dreanei first. They attacked and raided Dreanei caravans and enslaved those they captured, one such person was Marads own sister who was raped and she later gave birth to Garona.




Thrall attacked the Alliance first, period, what was being done in the camps means nothing in this context.
They kept amongst others all the orcs that came and invaded Azeroth, the orcs that Thrall wanted to free, who later had children in the camps but Thrall still attacked the Alliance first. He attacked to free prisoners of war, its not like he just took those that had nothing to do with the war.

Grom after the defeat of Nerzhull Horde continued to avoid capture. That Alliance outpost had every right to imprison him.



The Forsaken started attacking Southshore first, and they tried to claim Arathi as well. If I'm not mistaken there weren't any texts that said the Hilsbrad peasants were going all out and invading the otherwise peaceful Forsaken territory for no reason.





The orcs and NE allied afterward meaning any war stopped the second the Warchief himself allied with them, but the orcs still remained after that and continued to chop trees. Which directly led to their alliance breaking.

Yeah they did, but the others orcs didn't know about this. Gul'dan killed few survivors and then told other clans that Draenai attacked unprovoked. From perspective of other clans it was Draenai wiped out a clan before they did anything to them.

Still doesn't matter for this argument as chronicles 3 stated Daelin started the war against the orcs in TFT no buts or anything. If chronicles stated KT started the war then they started the war.

Alliance had no right to capture Grom as he wasn't alliance citizen.

There were texts that during after TFT Dalaran forces which were allied with southshore had killed wandering forsakens and helped othe human factions against Undeads and other horde races in silverpine attacking them. as Dalaran was a member of the alliance and southshore too which means that Dalaran forces in silverpine did to the first strike.

NE never demanded them on stopping as a term for the alliance as such it means orcs claimed the territory and NE never demanded it back as such it was NE aggresion again.

[ausoin]

Yeah they did, but the others orcs didn't know about this. Gul'dan killed few survivors and then told other clans that Draenai attacked unprovoked. From perspective of other clans it was Draenai wiped out a clan before they did anything to them.

But that still cant be lebeled off as the Dreanei starting the war since we know what actually happened.

Still doesn't matter for this argument as chronicles 3 stated Daelin started the war against the orcs in TFT no buts or anything. If chronicles stated KT started the war then they started the war.

Yes but Thrall actions should also be put on the list since he himself attacked the Alliance. If we count the dwarves actions against the Frostwolves then its only fair to do the same with Thrall.

Alliance had no right to capture Grom as he wasn't alliance citizen.

He invaded and waged war against the Alliance, and they had no right to imprison him? Are you joking?

There were texts that during after TFT Dalaran forces which were allied with southshore had killed wandering forsaken and helped othe human factions against Undeads and other horde races in silverpine attacking them. as Dalaran was a member of the alliance and southshore too which means that Dalaran forces in silverpine did to the first strike.

For the sake of it lets say you are right, but what did Southshore had to do with a couple of mages in some far out backwater village? Or what did the humans from Arathi had to do with it, because the Forsaken launched attacks there as well. You seriously think the Forsaken launched entire campgains because of a couple of mages were in a village in Silverpine? That they were all in a state harmony, not wanting to attack anyone but immediatly when they heard about a couple of those meddling mages in some village they decided its war to the death? From Tirisfal its clear they hate any human presence and they give quests to wipe them all out.

NE never demanded them on stopping as a term for the alliance as such it means orcs claimed the territory and NE never demanded it back as such it was NE aggresion again.

The wilds of the Ashenvale forest will succumb to the might of the Horde, <race>. Nothing the Silverwing say or do can stop our sovereign imperative. Kalimdor belongs to the Horde. How dare they attempt to prevent us from harvesting what is rightfully ours!

Let the pride swell in your chest as you cut down their weak attempts at slowing our progress. Destroy the Silverwing Sentinels, and earn a Warsong mark of honor. Return to me with such a mark, <name>, and you will be rewarded.

[Terongor]

But that still cant be lebeled off as the Dreanei starting the war since we know what actually happened.



Yes but Thrall actions should also be put on the list since he himself attacked the Alliance. If we count the dwarves actions against the Frostwolves then its only fair to do the same with Thrall.



He invaded and waged war against the Alliance, and they had no right to imprison him? Are you joking?



For the sake of it lets say you are right, but what did Southshore had to do with a couple of mages in some far out backwater village? Or what did the humans from Arathi had to do with it, because the Forsaken launched attacks there as well. You seriously think the Forsaken launched entire campgains because of a couple of mages were in a village in Silverpine? That they were all in a state harmony, not wanting to attack anyone but immediatly when they heard about a couple of those meddling mages in some village they decided its war to the death? From Tirisfal its clear they hate any human presence and they give quests to wipe them all out.

As draenai wiping them of caused the orcs going into war so yes we can as even Velen said in chronicles 2 that wiping out a clan would cause a total war against the orcs and draenai knowingly caused it and didn't try to do any diplomacy.

As it didn't cause a major battle or a war no it doesn't as it would lead into having to list EVERYLAST SKIRMISH and KT troops killing darkspears on their island and all that which didn't leave into a major battle.

How did he invade? he tried to protect the dark portal from the alliance and later just tried to find out a way to free the orcs.

It doesn't matter that they don't want to attack or get attacked they are allied to people who has attacked and dalaran controlled alot of area in vanilla silverpine.

Most of that can be taken as nationalistic motivational speak and as the area which they gather lumbers is still the same as Orcs have always used to terms to motivate . Silverwing is the faction that tries to end the horde gathering lumber, whiches words and actions tries to stop the orcs taking the woods

[ausoin]

As draenai wiping them of caused the orcs going into war so yes we can as even Velen said in chronicles 2 that wiping out a clan would cause a total war against the orcs and draenai knowingly caused it and didn't try to do any diplomacy.

Yes yes its always the Alliance races that have to do any diplomacy, always.

As it didn't cause a major battle or a war no it doesn't as it would lead into having to list EVERYLAST SKIRMISH and KT troops killing darkspears on their island and all that which didn't leave into a major battle.

Neither did the dwarves against the frostwolves then.

How did he invade? he tried to protect the dark portal from the alliance and later just tried to find out a way to free the orcs.

Um maybe ambushing Alliance forces under Danath? Or sieging an Alliance stronghold, Netherguard? No that's def not waging war and invading.

It doesn't matter that they don't want to attack or get attacked they are allied to people who has attacked and dalaran controlled alot of area in vanilla silverpine.

Yeah expect the Forsaken didnt attack becuase of those mages, the starting zone presents a clear picture of the Forsaken views of human survivors, they didnt launch all those campgains because some mages were in a backwater village doing mumbo jumbo.

Most of that can be taken as nationalistic motivational speak and as the area which they gather lumbers is still the same as Orcs have always used to terms to motivate Silverwing is the faction that tries to end the horde gathering lumber, whiches words and actions tries to stop the orcs taking the woods

His motivational speak is shared amongst most orcs, even Saurfag. The point is Ashenvale is NE territory, the Warsong clan refused to leave, even after they found out it was occupied, the NE attacks in vanilla prove they dont want orcs in their land.

[Terongor]

Yes yes its always the Alliance races that have to do any diplomacy, always.



Neither did the dwarves against the frostwolves then.


Um maybe ambushing Alliance forces under Danath? Or sieging an Alliance stronghold, Netherguard? No that's def not waging war and invading.



Yeah expect the Forsaken didnt attack becuase of those mages, the starting zone presents a clear picture of the Forsaken views of human survivors, they didnt launch all those campgains because some mages were in a backwater village doing mumbo jumbo.



His motivational speak is shared amongst most orcs, even Saurfag. The point is Ashenvale is NE territory, the Warsong clan refused to leave, even after they found out it was occupied, the NE attacks in vanilla prove they dont want orcs in their land.

Well its the fault that does the actions what escalates the thing and yeah horde does stuff, but many things which we talked before were escalated by the alliance. As after the draenai defeated the ogres some major orcs clans viewed draenai as the treacherous invaders. After the destruction of the bladewind clan even the ancestral spirits told to orcs that Draenai wanted to wipe them all out like the bladewind clan.

As Velen knew that some major clans viewed them as treacherous invaders it would only make sense for him to try to negotiate with other clans and prove their innocence as everything from orcs pov pointed draenai being evil.

As the orc rogue commander in bfa refers that battle for alterac took many days and alliance invaded frostwolf land and tried to take it. I would say that is a major battle.

Its the same kind of attacking as alliance invaded draenor with out any reason.

Well they still attacked first as such forsakens only sought to protect their lands from alliance bringing more troops there.

They didn't demand the orcs the leave in wc3 when they made the alliance and peace, as such alliance as when they make peace they didn't demand orcs to leave ashenvale in wc3 they regonise the outpost as orchiss territory.

[ausoin]

Well its the fault that does the actions what escalates the thing and yeah horde does stuff, but many things which we talked before were escalated by the alliance. As after the draenai defeated the ogres some major orcs clans viewed draenai as the treacherous invaders. After the destruction of the bladewind clan even the ancestral spirits told to orcs that Draenai wanted to wipe them all out like the bladewind clan.

As Velen knew that some major clans viewed them as treacherous invaders it would only make sense for him to try to negotiate with other clans and prove their innocence as everything from orcs pov pointed draenai being evil.

As the orc rogue commander in bfa refers that battle for alterac took many days and alliance invaded frostwolf land and tried to take it. I would say that is a major battle.

Its the same kind of attacking as alliance invaded draenor with out any reason.

Well they still attacked first as such forsakens only sought to protect their lands from alliance bringing more troops there.

They didn't demand the orcs the leave in wc3 when they made the alliance and peace, as such alliance as when they make peace they didn't demand orcs to leave ashenvale in wc3 they regonise the outpost as orchiss territory.

Yeah but they still were the agressors, its a moot point to discuss anyway since it was the old Horde.

And Thrall attacks on the camps formed one of the most numerous and powerfull races of the todays Horde. His battles were also numerous and lasted for a good while.

Alliance attacking Dreanor for no reason? They opened the portal and immediatly besieged a Alliance stronhold, ambushed a Stormwinds army under Danath and raided Alliance locations to obtain powerfull artifacts. Cmon now.

The Arathi battleground and Southshore had nothing to do with a couple of mages in Silverpine, also where is this logic with the case of Grom and how the Alliance had no right to imprison Grom? Or attack Dreanor?

They didnt regnocise anything, talk about headcanon, in vanilla they fought to push the orcs out, that is a clear message of their demands.

[Terongor]

Yeah but they still were the agressors, its a moot point to discuss anyway since it was the old Horde.

And Thrall attacks on the camps formed one of the most numerous and powerfull races of the todays Horde. His battles were also numerous and lasted for a good while.

Alliance attacking Dreanor for no reason? They opened the portal and immediatly besieged a Alliance stronhold, ambushed a Stormwinds army under Danath and raided Alliance locations to obtain powerfull artifacts. Cmon now.

The Arathi battleground and Southshore had nothing to do with a couple of mages in Silverpine, also where is this logic with the case of Grom and how the Alliance had no right to imprison Grom? Or attack Dreanor?

They didnt regnocise anything, talk about headcanon, in vanilla they fought to push the orcs out, that is a clear message of their demands.

That is true, but defensive war is defined as in many cases as attacking perceived hostile force before it attacks you as an act of maintaning indepence or survival.

We I admit there one more major war/battle started by horde.

As Alliance knew they were going to leave draenor for other world which would make their treath to azeroth minimal.

As the forces in arathi and southshore were allied with the mages who were currently attacking the horde as opposed. capturing Grom who only tried keep his people safe from things happening in interment camps.

If you make an peace with an enemy and ally with him and don't demand the lands they took from you by regnocise the land as theirs. As they you can't be in war and allied at the same time they made peace in Hyjal and clearly NE didn't demand warsong operations to stop then as they were gathering lumber there still from wc3 till vanilla atleast.

[ausoin]

That is true, but defensive war is defined as in many cases as attacking perceived hostile force before it attacks you as an act of maintaning indepence or survival.

We I admit there one more major war/battle started by horde.

As Alliance knew they were going to leave draenor for other world which would make their treath to azeroth minimal.

As the forces in arathi and southshore were allied with the mages who were currently attacking the horde as opposed. capturing Grom who only tried keep his people safe from things happening in interment camps.

If you make an peace with an enemy and ally with him and don't demand the lands they took from you by regnocise the land as theirs. As they you can't be in war and allied at the same time they made peace in Hyjal and clearly NE didn't demand warsong operations to stop then as they were gathering lumber there still from wc3 till vanilla atleast.

Who says the orcs wouldnt have returned? The portal was only shut after taking back one of the stolen artifacts from Dreanor. And Nerzull portals from Dreanor would have destroyed the Eastern kingdom if left unchecked since it corrupted the land.

This is really streching it, going by that the Horde is already at total war against the Alliance. Those mages started the whole thing!

Grom attacked and waged war against the Alliance they had every right to imprison him, end of story.

Who says they didnt demand? They cleary didnt want them there. Its their lands and the Warsong didnt care,and Thrall did nothing about it because the plot demanded it.