Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[RobertoCarlos]

Uhhh, the bifrost can be summoned by Thor. That’s how he took his group to Wakanda.

that with his new axe?

Hasnt always been able to do that.

[Ausr]

that with his new axe?

Hasnt always been able to do that.

Eitri states that Stormbreaker has the power to summon the Bifrost. So assume that there is dark power in the weapon.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The DC films initially did this very well, actually. Especially Man of Steel. And they were excoriated for it, for being too grim and dark.

It's a matter of tone, and throughout the film the tone was grim and dark. Endgame starting out is supposed to be grim and dark due to the previous film's events. The tone will change probably by the climax.

[Sunseeker]

It seems amusing to me (and I hope it is) how Rocket is kinda stranded on Earth and I want to see the "oh god, you guys are so backwards" shit he has to go through. Although I'm surprised Thor didn't rainbow bridge him back to a planet or back to the Ravagers.

And is that Thor in Thano's farming hut?

It's probably more of "Thanos killed Groot, I want to fuck Thanos in the face with my gun." why he's still there. Also it certainly helps in making this teamup more one of a "teamup of convenience" than a teamup of true allies.

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This is like, the plot of The Leftovers on HBO. Which is far better as a media than anything the MCU is gonna do with Endgame and the true insanity of losing half the universe's population. In The Leftovers, I think they only lost 3% of the world's population, and it was devastating on a humanity-altering level.

Well sure, there would be a massive cultural, political and economic shift. I mean, ~5 billion people just went SNAP! If this lasted for any extended period of time, given out current development, there would likely be a massive push for automation as well as population re-distribution and education incentives. Lets assume that 50% of every profession just went SNAP! we just lost half our doctors, half our nurses, half our teachers. Factories could likely adapt quickly, but these other areas wouldn't.

Even if we ignore the universal implications of all of this, the ultimate problem is that if this situation existed for an extended period of time society would naturally adjust and adapt, even after initial moments of chaos. So the real threat is bringing everyone back to life even a few years later where they have effectively been replaced, and their position in life may simply no longer exist, and now force these places that "tightened the belt" to suddenly account for billions of people who have no place in society.

Thanos may have done something horrible, but the results of undoing it without resetting time could be far worse.

[Vakir]

The DC films initially did this very well, actually. Especially Man of Steel. And they were excoriated for it, for being too grim and dark.

It was grim and dark, but it was super pretentious about the way it did it. Dialogue was lofty and dripped with smug portent every god damn minute to the point where it meant everything was dialed to 11. If everything is at 11, nothing stands out. No one talks or acts like a real person. It felt like a professional filmmaker having the competency of a student filmmaker in terms of trying SO damn hard to be the most important thing in the world.

That's before getting into the noisy tone-deafness of the last 40 minutes or so which is another story entirely.

Marvel has its share of problems (namely it can be too winky and self-referential occasionally, the opposite problem), but its success is owed to the fact that it typically balances its tone internally and it places focus on different character dynamics primarily before going for a broader story.

Your darkness needs to be earned. Superman is the last person you want to do that with in your first installment, and it only got worse. It's the wrong venue to talk about the negative ramifications of superhumans because Superman is supposed to be generally representative of the idealistic side of that scale.

[Hobbidaggy]

Really digging this. I'm glad that they've gone serious with the tone - at least from the trailers - and are trying to capture the gravity of what happened.

Also nice to see that they might spent at least some time showing the world with half its population gone.

I do wonder though - there must also be some "lucky" people who basically survived with their entire families intact. For these people, the new world would be great - half the people, their loved ones still around them.

I would expect people would attack them. It’s always the case of the haves vs the have nots. They attack to make the situation the same. We lost our children you shouldn’t be allowed to have yours

[Ausr]

It's probably more of "Thanos killed Groot, I want to fuck Thanos in the face with my gun." why he's still there. Also it certainly helps in making this teamup more one of a "teamup of convenience" than a teamup of true allies.

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Well sure, there would be a massive cultural, political and economic shift. I mean, ~5 billion people just went SNAP! If this lasted for any extended period of time, given out current development, there would likely be a massive push for automation as well as population re-distribution and education incentives. Lets assume that 50% of every profession just went SNAP! we just lost half our doctors, half our nurses, half our teachers. Factories could likely adapt quickly, but these other areas wouldn't.

Even if we ignore the universal implications of all of this, the ultimate problem is that if this situation existed for an extended period of time society would naturally adjust and adapt, even after initial moments of chaos. So the real threat is bringing everyone back to life even a few years later where they have effectively been replaced, and their position in life may simply no longer exist, and now force these places that "tightened the belt" to suddenly account for billions of people who have no place in society.

Thanos may have done something horrible, but the results of undoing it without resetting time could be far worse.

Well, I was thinking maybe he would want to go off planet for technological gains. But then again, he has access to the Avengers compound and that has all of Tony's stuff along with Wakanda tech, assuming they let him in.

[s_bushido]

Eitri states that Stormbreaker has the power to summon the Bifrost. So assume that there is dark power in the weapon.

Was that actually in the movie? I just assumed that since his people were the ones that forged the hammer, axe, and the gauntlet that they might have built/helped build the Bifrost as well (and had their own version on that planet/station).

[ohwell]

Really digging this. I'm glad that they've gone serious with the tone - at least from the trailers - and are trying to capture the gravity of what happened.

Also nice to see that they might spent at least some time showing the world with half its population gone.

I do wonder though - there must also be some "lucky" people who basically survived with their entire families intact. For these people, the new world would be great - half the people, their loved ones still around them.

The problem is that there's a LOT of people that would have died as a result of the snap that weren't literally killed by the snap. If you're on a plane and the entire crew was a part of the snap, you probably died. If you're driving and a car nearby doing 50 has it's driver snapped, they probably killed some people. In the post credits a plane or helicopter hits a building, it probably killed people inside who lived through the snap. The odds are slim that entire families lived.

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Was that actually in the movie? I just assumed that since his people were the ones that forged the hammer, axe, and the gauntlet that they might have built/helped build the Bifrost as well (and had their own version on that planet/station).

Yes he LITERALLY says it in the movie. It has the power to channel the Bifrost.

[RobertoCarlos]

If you just need the bifrost to transport why did Heimdall/someone have to use the sword all that time and receive them etc.

It cant be as simple as just having the bifrost power

[Soulwind]

Most people assume that all the Avengers — and other Marvel characters — who were turned into dust at the end of Infinity War, are dead. But, what this new fan theory presupposes is: Maybe they’re not? And, maybe everyone “alive” at the end of that movie — including Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, the Hulk, et al. — are residing in an alternate universe and the other characters (like Spider-Man and Black Panther) are the ones who are alive. Sort of. Here’s what’s going on...

Article continues here: https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/mind...181436252.html

I read that theory shortly after Infinity War, and back then they even speculated about Far From Home being set in that alternate world in which only the dusted lived. It had the right name for that.

But at this point I'm pretty sure they just died, and I just hope that their resurrection will have some consequences. Like the theory that they'll restart the Universe without Thanos and/or the Infinity Stones, but now the X-gene has existed throughout history. Anything that doesn't make Infinity War pointless.

[Stormcall]

The odds are slim that entire families lived.

No, they aren't that slim. Yes, many people would have died, but many people, families included, could easily have lived. Take people living in a small town, like myself. If Thanos snapped right now, pretty much my entire block would live if they weren't snapped directly. There's not a lot of traffic at this time of day, and in small town streets, the speed is usually low to begin with. The odds of a plane or chopper flying over my specific block at the same time of the snap are about the same as my house getting hit by lightning-it COULD happen, but pretty unlikely.

[eschatological]

It was grim and dark, but it was super pretentious about the way it did it. Dialogue was lofty and dripped with smug portent every god damn minute to the point where it meant everything was dialed to 11. If everything is at 11, nothing stands out. No one talks or acts like a real person. It felt like a professional filmmaker having the competency of a student filmmaker in terms of trying SO damn hard to be the most important thing in the world.

Isn't a being with the powers of a god showing up exactly that? The most important thing in the world? I've always felt Thor was far too out of place in the MCU in terms of how casually he was accepted as, "Oh, it's the lightning-based Avenger." Superman was exactly the right person to do that with, because his intentions don't matter - it's how he's viewed that matters. He can be the Boy Scout, but human beings are going to question his intentions and his plans.

Thor has the same impact on the world as Black Widow, and Black Widow is a human assassin, and Thor is a god.


Also, MCU is very successful for ignoring the reality of the situation. People don't want to confront reality in their superhero movies, we get that, they just want the power fantasy. That doesn't make their tone "right," it just makes them atonal. Their tone is "we aren't really gonna address this." And man, that line about "focus on different character dynamics...." in the MCU? Really? The MCU has shallower character relationships than the NYC dating scene. I'm not saying the DCCU had good ones, but at least they attempted them.

[Vakir]

Isn't a being with the powers of a god showing up exactly that? The most important thing in the world? I've always felt Thor was far too out of place in the MCU in terms of how casually he was accepted as, "Oh, it's the lightning-based Avenger." Superman was exactly the right person to do that with, because his intentions don't matter - it's how he's viewed that matters. He can be the Boy Scout, but human beings are going to question his intentions and his plans.

When I say "the most important thing in the world," I mean the method in which the dialogue and situations are delivered. Nobody talks like a real person. Not a single piece of dialogue flows naturally. It took some of the small rough patches in the Nolan Batman films, where it was already more understandable due to a gothic influence, and turned them into mountains. That's what I mean when I say pretentious. You also need to establish a baseline for your concept first. It's an interesting theme and direction to explore, but the general public (as in, the average unwashed masses, not big comic fans that have already read those types of stories anyway) is less in denial of the ramifications of superhumans and more hasn't thought about them yet, at least in DC's context. You need to deliver a straight story and establish a universe that at least reflects standard comic books before you deconstruct it. Otherwise your deconstruction jumps straight to...a mopey asshole sitting in profile in front of a Jesus stained window. RLM: "Oh god, that was like a student film shot."

I'm not downplaying the intent behind it - DCEU could've 100% been the counterpart that worked, and it would mean we'd have two different tones to enjoy, where everyone wins - but I'm talking about the poor execution, not what they were trying to do.

Besides, Zack Snyder already semi-competently directed an adaptation that addressed this very issue with way better consistency, and it's unlikely anyone can ever do better than its source material.

Thor has the same impact on the world as Black Widow, and Black Widow is a human assassin, and Thor is a god.

I'd say they have different impacts even if they're roughly equivalent? One place I'll agree with you is that they gloss over, say, the massive fallout that the end of Winter Soldier should've had, releasing an absurd amount of privileged and country-altering information, but the reality is that a human spy/assassin is still able to have that kind of impact whereas Thor, a god, is less connected to the human world to begin with outside of a few core relationships, which is why we see less of a reaction to begin with. I actually thought the former was a good example of the whole idea of "one bullet or a few words can change an empire" and a clever method of making powersets not as important.

There's also some reactions to the existence of superhumans, like the fallout of AoU and the Sokovia accords - except I'd argue the former was some of the weakest aspects of MCU's writing. It addressed these things, but the weakness lies in the fact that your films need to have focus, and it felt like a criticism at something unavoidable. Placing less emphasis on "how does this impact the real world?" isn't necessarily some kind of willful ignorance or putting your head in the sand. It's the fact that your films need to target its tone consistently, or if you're going to address something like that, it needs to be laser-focused to fit into such a crowded setting.

Would it be interesting to make a standalone side-story about...I dunno, "how does an average civilian cope with the PTSD of seeing aliens and superpowers obliterate large buildings?" Sure. I'd actually love to see something like that. But if you were to shove that into a major story as a C-Plot, it would both dilute it and also fuck with the fact that the MCU targets a more optimistic tone as a whole.

Also, MCU is very successful for ignoring the reality of the situation. People don't want to confront reality in their superhero movies, we get that, they just want the power fantasy. That doesn't make their tone "right," it just makes them atonal. Their tone is "we aren't really gonna address this." And man, that line about "focus on different character dynamics...." in the MCU? Really? The MCU has shallower character relationships than the NYC dating scene. I'm not saying the DCCU had good ones, but at least they attempted them.

"Optimism, humor, informal" are tones. They are fallaciously labeled as "lesser" or nonexistent tones because there's still a stigma that darker and more pessimistic is somehow superior as a narrative, even when that itself is bungled.

As far as character relationships, I feel like that's a bit reductive. In large crossovers where there isn't room for anything deeper, I'd be inclined to agree. In the better films that are more targeted, the microcosms of the dynamics are absolutely there. Winter Soldier? It's effectively a buddy cop teamup, but it's about the juxtaposition between a weary and sometimes amoral operative who's seen it all vs. an idealist who's only just now learning to navigate the complicated and sometimes corrupt way that the government functions in the 2010s vs. the much easier and transparent 1940s. The former is spurred by said idealism as a reminder of what she's aiming for. The latter learns to adapt to the world as it changes while still not losing a sense of his ideals. The two bond and work together effectively because they're unified by the people they care about.

Both Guardians films? Rocket is an asshole but it's because he has enough self-loathing about what he is that he deliberately sabotages the relationships around him. Peter seems to contrast this which is why they're the primary focus of the group conflict, but they're actually more alike given his entire demeanor is driven by unresolved grief mixed with false bravado to cover for his own insecurities. Nebula and Gamora isn't addressed as well as it should be until 2, but two people clashing over shared abuse and trauma is a very real thing. They'll often blame each other or shoulder the guilt as a method of coping. All the violence and rivalry is indoctrinated, but the suffering and their dynamic is portrayed in a very human way. Peter and Yondu contrasts their connection to Thanos, since Yondu is still an abusive dickhead, but it humanizes the latter by recognizing that an extremely unfair universe and his own history is able to paint a person into being dysfunctional.

Just a couple. There's absolutely shallow examples out there, but it's reductive to say that people aren't invested in this universe because of the dynamics and tone of the relationships. If everyone was a complete carbon-copy outside of their powersets and everyone acted the same around each other, people wouldn't have their favorites to begin with and wouldn't be clamoring for X to work with Y.

The Superman adaptation I'd want? All-Star, without just cribbing lines from it. But it's optimistic, so I guess that means it denies the ramifications of superhumans.

[Shadowferal]

The DC films initially did this very well, actually. Especially Man of Steel. And they were excoriated for it, for being too grim and dark.

They also had a montage of talk about a religious aspect...which I liked.
Man of Steel was better than it was given credit for.

[ohwell]

No, they aren't that slim. Yes, many people would have died, but many people, families included, could easily have lived. Take people living in a small town, like myself. If Thanos snapped right now, pretty much my entire block would live if they weren't snapped directly. There's not a lot of traffic at this time of day, and in small town streets, the speed is usually low to begin with. The odds of a plane or chopper flying over my specific block at the same time of the snap are about the same as my house getting hit by lightning-it COULD happen, but pretty unlikely.

The odds are slim without even taking into account outside effects. Husband and wife, sure maybe. Start adding kids and the chances are less and less.

[BrownJames]

All series of Avengers is very interesting.

[RobertoCarlos]

Russo brothers say they regret filming back to back avengers films.

Its Joss Whedon with age of ultron all over again with getting burned out with the weight and demands of the project

Maybe Feige asked them to put in another thor bath scene

[Miamii Paradise]

Avengers Rock!!!. Best comics by far, no one makes them better than Marvel or D.C. Come at me!!!

[Gallahadd]

Avengers Rock!!!. Best comics by far, no one makes them better than Marvel or D.C. Come at me!!!

You need to read some IMAGE. They’ve been killing it for a few years now.