[EU] Brexit negotiations at a standstill

[Kiri]

-snip-

You just know that all they will take from those demands is "less regulations" and cheer.

[Nigel Tufnel]

There is one thing that is misleading in @Nigel Tufnel . It's not what they want Trump to get, it's what they want from any US President. Obama would have asked for the exact same list and who ever follows the cheeto-encrusted sea lion in the White House will ask for the same.

Yep, sure. I know very little about US politics... hypothetical scenario: if someone to the left of Obama e.g., Sanders had won the Democrat nomination and then beaten Trump, surely regulation would have improved? Wasn't Sanders pro labelling of GMOs? Had a public battle with Monsanto? Anyway... yep, I take your point.

[Huehuecoyotl]

snip

Nope, I didn't have you in mind. We might disagree over things but I would still classify you as an honest poster. WYSIWYG you might say. And I'm still hopeful of avoiding no-deal not because I'm an optimist, but because the Tories must recognise how much it will damage their party. Since this whole debacle sprang from their efforts to avoid just that, I can't reconcile how they would end up allowing it to cause more damage to them than ignoring the ERG ever could.

[Slant]

Nope, I didn't have you in mind. We might disagree over things but I would still classify you as an honest poster. WYSIWYG you might say. And I'm still hopeful of avoiding no-deal not because I'm an optimist, but because the Tories must recognise how much it will damage their party. Since this whole debacle sprang from their efforts to avoid just that, I can't reconcile how they would end up allowing it to cause more damage to them than ignoring the ERG ever could.

How would this be a debacle for them? The UK doesn't seem to have an alternative. They can literally burn the queen on a stake and nothing would happen. If they sold Westminster to the Chinese while giving the London area to Russia, you'd still have no alternative.

[Slant]

Labelling GMOs is one thing. The UK would not have to give them EVERYTHING on that list. But there are a few points in which the US would NOT budge.
4) Slash British cattle farming subsidies
9) Change how the NHS buys drugs
10) Ignore the presence hormones and pus in dairy products
11) Ensure Brits’ data can be transferred to foreign countries
12) Allow politicians, not courts, to handle legal disputes
13) Allow foreign businesses to sue the British state
16) Lift the UK ban on a growth hormone in pork
17) More antibiotics in livestock
18) Eliminate UK testing for a parasitic worm in pork
19) Dump law against chlorine-bleached chicken
16) Lift the UK ban on a growth hormone in pork
17) More antibiotics in livestock
18) Eliminate UK testing for a parasitic worm in pork
19) Dump law against chlorine-bleached chicken
23) Loosen regulation on direct selling
28) Change how the NHS prices US drugs

These are all points that they did not want to budge with in the TTIP. 13 is the big ticket; the TTIP was largely frozen in negotiations because the US would not drop that demand.

You're forgetting... the court was set to be a US court. Yes, that means the EU would have been subject to US law. That is, the British would. If you think the EU was bad, just wait until you get your "FTA" with the US. You'll think India had it easy under the British Empire.

[dribbles]

Separately.

@ Leavers

Here's What US Lobbyists Want Donald Trump To Get From A Post-Brexit Trade Deal

1) Scrap the safety-first approach to food quality and standards
2) Weaken data protection for consumers
3) Allow the sale of hormone-riddled beef
4) Slash British cattle farming subsidies
5) Allow new genetically-modified foods to be sold with minimal regulation
6) Stop people knowing what they’re eating is genetically-modified food
7) Get rid of Britain’s safety-first approach to chemicals
8) Bin protections for traditional British products
9) Change how the NHS buys drugs
10) Ignore the presence hormones and pus in dairy products
11) Ensure Brits’ data can be transferred to foreign countries ...
12) Allow politicians, not courts, to handle legal disputes
13) Allow foreign businesses to sue the British state
14) Stop Britain holding big social media companies to account
15) End rules that let British shoppers know what colourings are in their food
16) Lift the UK ban on a growth hormone in pork
17) More antibiotics in livestock
18) Eliminate UK testing for a parasitic worm in pork
19) Dump law against chlorine-bleached chicken
20) Legalise dangerous pesticides
21) Let fruit and veg be sold with pesticide residue on
22) Allow more carcinogens in pistachios
23) Loosen regulation on direct selling
24) A big shift on the definition of standards
25) Scrap the ‘Amazon Tax’
26) More toxic substances in glass that will be near food
27) Allow untested medical devices into the UK
28) Change how the NHS prices US drugs
29) Make the NHS pay as much as possible for new equipment
30) Bin rules to stop electrical waste ending up in landfill

Free trade! Yay!

Outside of the EU the UK will be weak and we will be screwed.

Oh Nigel, what are we going to do with you....

Secret plan for lower taxes after no-deal Brexit in bid to boost economy.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/08/secre...onomy-8472400/

So "Project After" has, quite sensibly, begun. Oh and "Project Bluebell", nothing to do with blue passports either.

Corporation, Vat, income tax, regulation cuts to boost business investment bringing a brexit dividend for all. Who would oppose tax cuts? Only those lazy people who don't pay any tax in the first place. There is a definite debate to be had that people, probably remainers, who haven't contributed to society shouldn't be allowed to shape its future. I would say nobody who has paid less than £10k in income tax over their lifetime should be able to vote. I'd even support a second referendum then.

Seriously I know many self employed people and you are the first in a lifetime I have met who wants more needless red tape regulation and more tax. Oh well, looks like it is going my way rather than yours.

Plans in place and well advanced for that sweet no deal brexit in just 49 days time.... nearly there now, Tick tock.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Hey, lunatic on the left meet lunatic on the right!

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There once was a communist burner
Who hated both mid and high earners
He called people cunts
But when it came to confront
He got his head kicked in by a Blairite.


Edit...

lunatic on the left seems to have had his posts deleted.

So to clarify, I'm not referring to the European posters above as lunatics.

Nor, really, Mr D - I disagree with you but I don't think you're mad.

Whereas, Citizen Smith here is clearly a few agits short of a prop.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh Nigel, what are we going to do with you....

Secret plan for lower taxes after no-deal Brexit in bid to boost economy.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/08/secre...onomy-8472400/

So "Project After" has, quite sensibly, begun. Oh and "Project Bluebell", nothing to do with blue passports either.

Corporation, Vat, income tax, regulation cuts to boost business investment bringing a brexit dividend for all. Who would oppose tax cuts? Only those lazy people who don't pay any tax in the first place. There is a definite debate to be had that people, probably remainers, who haven't contributed to society shouldn't be allowed to shape its future. I would say nobody who has paid less than £10k in income tax over their lifetime should be able to vote. I'd even support a second referendum then.

Seriously I know many self employed people and you are the first in a lifetime I have met who wants more needless red tape regulation and more tax. Oh well, looks like it is going my way rather than yours.

Plans in place and well advanced for that sweet no deal brexit in just 49 days time.... nearly there now, Tick tock.

Sorry, just realised I didn’t actually address your post.

I was overcome by the Muse and focused on my poetry.

Literally, none of the above has anything to do with the lowering of standards described in the Huff Post article I quoted.

In terms of taxes… let’s see. My bet will be that personal taxes will rise in the event of a no deal Brexit. It all depends on who you believe. Lies, damn lies, and statistics!

And with respect to red tape; maybe less in the long term, but in the short term I leave you with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...no-deal-brexit

As it stands, each haulier entering Britain will be required to submit a 40-field declaration form per consignment before travel.
“The form takes 10 minutes to fill out. If you take a large retailer who has 8,000 consignments [in one lorry], that would take 170 people eight hours to process one trailer,” said Richard Burnett, RHA chief executive.
“That is the worst-case scenario. But even if you took the average trailer which has 400 consignments per delivery, that would take nine people eight hours to process.”

ha ha ha - nine people, eight hours

[Pann]

And with respect to red tape; maybe less in the long term, but in the short term I leave you with this:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...no-deal-brexit

As it stands, each haulier entering Britain will be required to submit a 40-field declaration form per consignment before travel.
“The form takes 10 minutes to fill out. If you take a large retailer who has 8,000 consignments [in one lorry], that would take 170 people eight hours to process one trailer,” said Richard Burnett, RHA chief executive.
“That is the worst-case scenario. But even if you took the average trailer which has 400 consignments per delivery, that would take nine people eight hours to process.”

ha ha ha - nine people, eight hours

That is being dealt with by a scheme that allows registered businesses to declare their imports after they have arrived in the UK. It was discussed a few days ago but apparently this is the UK throwing its borders open and that by keeping the number of checks we have at the border for EU imports at zero we will all be eating horse and poisoning our babies.

[Nigel Tufnel]

since this is a defacto UK politics mega thread, christopher chope should be nuked from space, fed to pigs or have his bones ground down and put in maracas

What’s he done this time?

[Nigel Tufnel]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8770026.html

remember hes the geezer who blocked a debate on Hillsborough, the Alan Turing pardon, banning the use of wild animals in circuses, and a bill targeting ‘upskirting’ (and many more)

hes a climate change denier and to tie it into this thread i suppose, hes a brexiteer and part of leave means leave.

also wants the death penalty back.

all round nuclear cunt. Or Tory as they are known.

Yes, what a fucker.

So, reading about it, he objects to private members' bills unless they're sponsored by his Tory backbench friends, in which case he doesn't object.

Again, @Pann - which part of this archaic parliamentary procedure is it that I'm supposed to respect?

He won't be deselected or have the whip removed because, ya know, party politics.

Just to underline the point again: there is much in the UK's democratic process that I do not respect and will happily undermine.

- - - Updated - - -

That is being dealt with by a scheme that allows registered businesses to declare their imports after they have arrived in the UK. It was discussed a few days ago but apparently this is the UK throwing its borders open and that by keeping the number of checks we have at the border for EU imports at zero we will all be eating horse and poisoning our babies.

Yep, fair enough... I do remember now.

The basic point that Dribbles answered one question with answers to a totally different question still remains, though.

[Pann]

Yes, what a fucker.

So, reading about it, he objects to private members' bills unless they're sponsored by his Tory backbench friends, in which case he doesn't object.

Again, @Pann - which part of this archaic parliamentary procedure is it that I'm supposed to respect?

He won't be deselected or have the whip removed because, ya know, party politics.

Just to underline the point again: there is much in the UK's democratic process that I do not respect and will happily undermine.

I am not sure why you've directed this question at me or what it has to do with respecting the fact that leave collected more votes in the referendum

Yep, fair enough... I do remember now.

The basic point that Dribbles answered one question with answers to a totally different question still remains, though.

Did he but by the same token I would treat the article you linked with a healthy does of scepticism until further details are known.

[Nigel Tufnel]

I am not sure why you've directed this question at me or what it has to do with respecting the fact that leave collected more votes in the referendum

For reasons given previously, I question the validity of the initial vote. And I object to being told to respect teh will of teh people, when there's absolutely little to respect. Either the politicians and the media who lied or the people who believed them.

Did he but by the same token I would treat the article you linked with a healthy does of scepticism until further details are known.

Why would I treat it with scepticism? It’s as @Nymrohd has already stated: TTIP stalled because the US would not budge on some of the above points. I thought it was more to do with food safety disagreements than anything else.

When the UK leaves the EU, we will be weaker. We will be desperate if we leave with no deal. We will not have the collective bargaining power that we currently enjoy.

Your argument is basically, it’s not as bad as all that, see what happens, it’ll all turn out in the wash. And that, in my opinion, leads to complacency and inaction.

On the other hand, yes, what is it exactly I can do other than rant on an internet gaming forum.

[dribbles]

For reasons given previously, I question the validity of the initial vote. And I object to being told to respect teh will of teh people, when there's absolutely little to respect. Either the politicians and the media who lied or the people who believed them.



Why would I treat it with scepticism? It’s as @Nymrohd has already stated: TTIP stalled because the US would not budge on some of the above points. I thought it was more to do with food safety disagreements than anything else.

When the UK leaves the EU, we will be weaker. We will be desperate if we leave with no deal. We will not have the collective bargaining power that we currently enjoy.

Your argument is basically, it’s not as bad as all that, see what happens, it’ll all turn out in the wash. And that, in my opinion, leads to complacency and inaction.

Why would the UK hold up trucks entering if it is not in our interest? The answer for the diminishing number of people who still read the Guardian is that it won't. In the short term HMRC have already confirmed trucks will be able to cross the border and file customs forms at a later date. Not before travel as inaccurately reported in that piece from them you quoted.

And I am sure there are ports in Belgium and the Netherlands that would love UK business if the Frenchies throw a wobbly, though even they have promised otherwise...

Calais port boss expects little disruption from a no-deal Brexit

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1P31LO

No deal, no problem, let's go WTO!

On the other hand, yes, what is it exactly I can do other than rant on an internet gaming forum.

I stumbled across a toon with exactly your name on the mythic+ leaderboards a few weeks back whilst I was looking for my run to appear, go and bash your keyboard on one of them? I mean it is blowing a gale outside and raining, a bit inclement for marching the streets...

[Slant]

Why would the UK hold up trucks entering if it is not in our interest? The answer for the diminishing number of people who still read the Guardian is that it won't. In the short term HMRC have already confirmed trucks will be able to cross the border and file customs forms at a later date. Not before travel as inaccurately reported in that piece from them you quoted.

And I am sure there are ports in Belgium and the Netherlands that would love UK business if the Frenchies throw a wobbly, though even they have promised otherwise...

Calais port boss expects little disruption from a no-deal Brexit

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-br...-idUKKCN1P31LO

No deal, no problem, let's go WTO!



I stumbled across a toon with exactly your name on the mythic+ leaderboards a few weeks back whilst I was looking for my run to appear, go and bash your keyboard on one of them? I mean it is blowing a gale outside and raining, a bit inclement for marching the streets...

Misleading again, eh?

The article says the CALAIS port would have no delays. And that is mostly because they have actually prepared for a no-deal for over a year now, investing and preparing to hire new personnel and building new facilities. Calais and the other EU ports have never been the issue, because they're professionals. Now, tell me again... how's DOVER doing?

[Pann]

For reasons given previously, I question the validity of the initial vote. And I object to being told to respect teh will of teh people, when there's absolutely little to respect. Either the politicians and the media who lied or the people who believed them.

And? What does this have to do with an MP with a questionable record voting (this is probably the kindest thing I say) against a bill that protect young girls from FGM? Why did you feel the need to mention it and direct a question at me? It is completely unrelated to the ref!

Why would I treat it with scepticism? It’s as @Nymrohd has already stated: TTIP stalled because the US would not budge on some of the above points. I thought it was more to do with food safety disagreements than anything else.

When the UK leaves the EU, we will be weaker. We will be desperate if we leave with no deal. We will not have the collective bargaining power that we currently enjoy.

Your argument is basically, it’s not as bad as all that, see what happens, it’ll all turn out in the wash. And that, in my opinion, leads to complacency and inaction.

On the other hand, yes, what is it exactly I can do other than rant on an internet gaming forum.

Well for starters the article was not exactly what you would call impartial. What makes you think that the UK will suddenly accept terms that were deemed unacceptable whilst we were EU members?

We currently trade with the US somewhere in region of £160billion per annum without a FTA there is no reason why we need to sign a FTA that is on worse terms than we already enjoy. Plus any future FTA will be scrutinised by the press and opposition and the government arranging it will be very aware of the sensitivities of voters who will rightly be concerned about the potential terms especially as many of them will be looking to give the government a kicking in the voting booth over their handling Brexit.

In short voters will watching and the government is not going to sign up to a FTA that is likely to see them booted out of No. 10.

I do not claim that this will happen and you should treat what my take on the situation with scepticism as well. However I see little point getting angry over what might happen with a potential US FTA when at this time it does not contain a single word.

It is not as bad as all that but that doesn't mean things are good and everything is rosy.

[dribbles]

Misleading again, eh?

The article says the CALAIS port would have no delays. And that is mostly because they have actually prepared for a no-deal for over a year now, investing and preparing to hire new personnel and building new facilities. Calais and the other EU ports have never been the issue, because they're professionals. Now, tell me again... how's DOVER doing?

Calais is doing such a fine job of it, does Dover really have to worry too much initially "on the spot"? The HMRC paperwork exercise can be done in advance or later at leisure in the UK, there will be no delays at Dover as our man there confirms.

Lorries will be able to drive straight off ferries and Channel Tunnel trains without making customs declarations in the event of a no-deal Brexit, the government has announced.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47121225

So Calais sorted, Dover too.

No deal, no problem, let's go WTO!

[Pann]

Uh oh! Things are getting serious now!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rexit-searches

But the question is with all the planes being grounded why will they need the gloves?!

[dribbles]

Uh oh! Things are getting serious now!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rexit-searches

But the question is with all the planes being grounded why will they need the gloves?!

Hahahahaaaa bend over eurochums, bend over...

[Acidbaron]

Uh oh! Things are getting serious now!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rexit-searches

But the question is with all the planes being grounded why will they need the gloves?!

Not sure why you are trying to ridicule this while at the same page there are links to 4 more articles about stockpiling goods.

And on the EU side step one is stockpiling. Step two is finding new suppliers in other markets that provide a more stable supply.

[Pann]

Not sure why you are trying to ridicule this while at the same page there are links to 4 more articles about stockpiling goods.

And on the EU side step one is stockpiling. Step two is finding new suppliers in other markets that provide a more stable supply.

I am sorry for my flippant comment. I realise that a shortage of disposable rubber gloves is really, really important.

I bet if they'd put that we'd be out of disposable rubber gloves on the side of a bus no-one would have voted for Brexit!