Horde Leaders React to Baine (8.1.5 Spoilers)

[Syegfryed]

The Horde have been practicing slavery without stop from their founding to now and have DKs that raise mindless ghouls. Baine's and Saurfang's principles on this are an inconsistent joke.

slavery of enemies is one thing, and its still is a thing very rare, that you barely see in the game, with the interactions of the game its pretty much something not accepted, in fact the only "slavery" thing i remember now is some alliance prisoners in nortrend, prisoners in SoO and the slaves who fight in the renas ( who is not something legal)

DKS are rare exceptions, they do not live in society and do their own things in secret, also, mindless ghouls are less a problem than someone rised s forsaken and denied his free will, something the forsakens always have being proud for

[sillag]

does anyone else have a real problem with how the horde has become the faction of polticking and everyone being too afraid to act and having to lurk around in the shadows out of fear of stepping on sylvanas's toes. while the alliance is the faction where there is no politics and if someone wants to get something done they just go get some people and get it done.

tyrande wants to reclaim darkshore: "fuck u anduin im going to reclaim darkshore." and anduin is fine with it after like 2 seconds of thought and genn goes along and they make a heroic offensive against the horde there

meanwhile on the horde baine is sneaking around like he's a tauren rogue and lor'themar, thalyssra, etc are just keeping their eyes down when baine gets carted away. not a word of protest from a single one of them even though they're all thinking it as we can see from their lines afterwards

im sorry when did the blood and thunder horde turn into this. whatever you think about garrosh or grom or anyone else they would take action. cairne and thrall wouldn't be standing there speechless while baine is frogmarched into the forsaken gulag. i thought i hated baine most of all but this cutscene puts every horde faction leader except geyrah and gallywix beneath him for being snivelling little cowards.

and sure i understand people are happy that ji firepaw gets the privelege of being permitted to exist in this shitshow but does anyone want to run by me why the leader of the "act first, think later" huojin is standing there playing with his panda cock while baine is sent to jail by the warchief for doing something that was, by panda standards, obviously morally correct. does the thought never cross ji's mind that the last time this happened, the leader imprisoned by the warchief was tortured to the brink of death, and also that it was him personally who it happened to. but no fuck it let's have him say "hoho good thing baine got that out of his system, otherwise the sha might have consumed him!"

"hey jim the fans are saying they want this ji firepaw guy in the cutscene. i don't know what he should say after the event though. what's a panda thing to say"

"idk dude. just put something about the sha those were the bad guys of pandaria right. the final boss was the sha of something i think?"

i physically cant do it anymore. i cant belong to this shit horde.

[Maxilian]

I saw that Wowhead added Ji FirePaw to those that react to Baine and Sylvanas, and he says:

I can sense much anger and frustration among those gathered here today. In my homeland, we saw such feelings manifest into very real threats after we spent too much time and energy suppressing them.

Baine had to act, lest his anger turn into a greater threat to the Horde.

We should all take a lesson from this.

I do find this quite interesting, and to be fair, he's right, if those things are not addressed them it will only become worse

[Syegfryed]

Nobody asked for other's opinion.
The Horde is the instrument of Warchief's desires. What other participants think doesn't matter.

this shit don't work since what they did with Garrosh, like i said before, the current warchief is also a previous traitor and his leadership is illegitimate, what she think and other participants don't matter

Besides, you can't really feel sympathy for somebody who's been a rotting corpse for 20+ years.

im sorry?

Nazgrim did. In the end even when he knew Garrosh was doing things that were morally questionable he chose not to betray his oath because then his honor would be forfeit.

and he died, the only correct one, everyone beside him is also traitor.

A betrayer also deserve betrayal and no loyalty imo

[Maxilian]

does anyone else have a real problem with how the horde has become the faction of polticking and everyone being too afraid to act and having to lurk around in the shadows out of fear of stepping on sylvanas's toes. while the alliance is the faction where there is no politics and if someone wants to get something done they just go get some people and get it done.

tyrande wants to reclaim darkshore: "fuck u anduin im going to reclaim darkshore." and anduin is fine with it after like 2 seconds of thought and genn goes along and they make a heroic offensive against the horde there

meanwhile on the horde baine is sneaking around like he's a tauren rogue and lor'themar, thalyssra, etc are just keeping their eyes down when baine gets carted away. not a word of protest from a single one of them even though they're all thinking it as we can see from their lines afterwards

im sorry when did the blood and thunder horde turn into this. whatever you think about garrosh or grom or anyone else they would take action. cairne and thrall wouldn't be standing there speechless while baine is frogmarched into the forsaken gulag. i thought i hated baine most of all but this cutscene puts every horde faction leader except geyrah and gallywix beneath him for being snivelling little cowards.

and sure i understand people are happy that ji firepaw gets the privelege of being permitted to exist in this shitshow but does anyone want to run by me why the leader of the "act first, think later" huojin is standing there playing with his panda cock while baine is sent to jail by the warchief for doing something that was, by panda standards, obviously morally correct. does the thought never cross ji's mind that the last time this happened, the leader imprisoned by the warchief was tortured to the brink of death, and also that it was him personally who it happened to. but no fuck it let's have him say "hoho good thing baine got that out of his system, otherwise the sha might have consumed him!"

"hey jim the fans are saying they want this ji firepaw guy in the cutscene. i don't know what he should say after the event though. what's a panda thing to say"

"idk dude. just put something about the sha those were the bad guys of pandaria right. the final boss was the sha of something i think?"

i physically cant do it anymore. i cant belong to this shit horde.

You know, that this happened with Garrosh horde right? the difference is that instead of trying to outright kill Voljin ermmm Baine, he got thrown into Prison (IMHO that was a smart choice, as outright killing him makes him a martyr and would push everyone to act faster)

[sillag]

You know, that this happened with Garrosh horde right? the difference is that instead of trying to outright kill Voljin ermmm Baine, he got thrown into Prison (IMHO that was a smart choice, as outright killing him makes him a martyr and would push everyone to act faster)

i sincerely believe sylvanas could have killed baine there and then and the useless gaggle of b-list characters we laughingly call the horde faction leadership would not have reacted any differently.

[Maxilian]

i sincerely believe sylvanas could have killed baine there and then and the useless gaggle of b-list characters we laughingly call the horde faction leadership would not have reacted any differently.

But why are they "bad" for reacting like that? i mean... is logical and smart, even most of them basically point out "We need time before we strike".

[Super Dickmann]

slavery of enemies is one thing, and its still is a thing very rare, that you barely see in the game, with the interactions of the game its pretty much something not accepted, in fact the only "slavery" thing i remember now is some alliance prisoners in nortrend, prisoners in SoO and the slaves who fight in the renas ( who is not something legal)

DKS are rare exceptions, they do not live in society and do their own things in secret, also, mindless ghouls are less a problem than someone rised s forsaken and denied his free will, something the forsakens always have being proud for

A ghoul or say, a skeleton made out of the body of a Horde soldier who died in some way, maybe if exposed to Blight, also lacks free will. Derek on the other hand has free will, he's just being tortured into compliance, which effectively makes him a slave. Raising a ghoul is if anything worse.

Rehgar was a slaver, who had a belf slave, so a member of the Horde, and was a top advisor to Thrall. Garry had the gladiatorial slaves you fight on the Durotar coast, we have slaves mining in Warfang and so on. As for Death Knights, Sylvanas has some in Warfang and some show up in the Ally version of Stormsong, so it's clearly still practiced. Derek was an Alliance member who's last standing membership was under Daelin "Kill all orcs" Proudmoore.

I don't know why people pretend this was a morally correct choice. Nothing confers Derek's life with superior value to those that Baine kills to free him and at least those guys were fighting the Alliance rather than being members of it. It's definitely not because he cares about free will or necromancy, since he's not spoken up about it any time it's happened on a larger scale before. And you know what else takes away people's free will? Killing them. When you're dead, you don't have any free will at all.

[Maxilian]

Because every character there present is not the smart calculating type.

But none are known for being hot headed, the only one that may fall in that category is the UA Orcs leader, and she's on the side of Sylvanas. (and maybe Baine sometimes, but he's like the one in the middle of it all)

Note: Well Ji is hot headed or used to be in the Pandaren starting area

[sillag]

But why are they "bad" for reacting like that? i mean... is logical and smart, even most of them basically point out "We need time before we strike".

because it's boring and cowardly and not the horde i know. the horde is supposedly a take no prisoners faction of passion and action. these guys are mewling around like its a boring episode of game of thrones. someone hit someone with a goddamn hammer please.

[Maxilian]

And you know what else takes away people's free will? Killing them. When you're dead, you don't have any free will at all.

This is the only thing i don't agree with you.

In some cases, you do have your free will, but that depends on your afterlife.

If you end up in the Emerald Dream (As some end up there -normally druids, and some animals, maybe even all Worgen get thrown there at the end, who knows-) you would still have your free will (unless you get corrupted by something in there)

Follower of the Light end up somewhere, we don't know where they end when they die (and maybe not all followers of the light), but if we take Alleria's vision as 100% true, then you're right, no free will is waiting for them

Shadowlands A, if you go where sylvanas went, then you become a prisioner that is in eternal torture (so... i guess your free will is just -hey you can try to scream, but you will fail as you have no body! -)

NONELAND, in many cases, we see that the soul don't go anywhere after dead, it actually stays in the corpse sleeping or in slumber (as the Horde War campaign show with Derek and when you're looking for the captain corpse in the graveyard)

Valhala, I don't know if the Varlajar have free will, most of them that get pulled into Varlajar are happy because of it, but when they become Varlajar they also become completely loyal to Odyn, so... their free will may be affected (in the end, we do know that he's willing to violate others free will, as we saw with Helya)

So.... we don't really know if Dead takes away your free will, it may, it may not, in most cases, it depends where you go after you die, and IMHO that very question is what make the Forsaken interesting, and why i hate the idea of light Forsaken

[Florena]

A ghoul or say, a skeleton made out of the body of a Horde soldier who died in some way, maybe if exposed to Blight, also lacks free will. Derek on the other hand has free will, he's just being tortured into compliance, which effectively makes him a slave. Raising a ghoul is if anything worse.

Rehgar was a slaver, who had a belf slave, so a member of the Horde, and was a top advisor to Thrall. Garry had the gladiatorial slaves you fight on the Durotar coast, we have slaves mining in Warfang and so on. As for Death Knights, Sylvanas has some in Warfang and some show up in the Ally version of Stormsong, so it's clearly still practiced. Derek was an Alliance member who's last standing membership was under Daelin "Kill all orcs" Proudmoore.

I don't know why people pretend this was a morally correct choice. Nothing confers Derek's life with superior value to those that Baine kills to free him and at least those guys were fighting the Alliance rather than being members of it. It's definitely not because he cares about free will or necromancy, since he's not spoken up about it any time it's happened on a larger scale before. And you know what else takes away people's free will? Killing them. When you're dead, you don't have any free will at all.

For ghouls it depends if their soul is attached. Those skeletons raised at undercity may well not have had the souls or minds of the original people still in them at all, more like empty puppets since SYlvanas' necromancy isn't as powerful as the val'kyr.

[Maxilian]

because it's boring and cowardly and not the horde i know. the horde is supposedly a take no prisoners faction of passion and action. these guys are mewling around like its a boring episode of game of thrones. someone hit someone with a goddamn hammer please.

What's the Horde you know? the one from Warcraft 1 and 2? cause even then, the Horde have always been "Follow your Warchief, to the end" and those that did not, died really fast or had to plot in the shadows (like Durotan)

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I don't know why people pretend this was a morally correct choice. Nothing confers Derek's life with superior value to those that Baine kills to free him and at least those guys were fighting the Alliance rather than being members of it. It's definitely not because he cares about free will or necromancy, since he's not spoken up about it any time it's happened on a larger scale before. And you know what else takes away people's free will? Killing them. When you're dead, you don't have any free will at all.

It may not be morally correct, Baine was simply action upon his values, be then right or wrong (as we have seen before, as he kicked the people who fought against the Alliance after the destruction of Taurajo -i don't know the full details of this-)

[Jastall]

The Horde have been practicing slavery without stop from their founding to now and have DKs that raise mindless ghouls. Baine's and Saurfang's principles on this are an inconsistent joke.

If memory serves slavery is used very, very rarely, being more akin to putting prisoners to work which is not really the same, and if Rhegar's (illegal) treatment was any indication the "slaves" are that on only the most technical of terms. And we don't even know if the Horde has DKs lorewise, they should have been booted out after their stunts with Nazgrim and breaking into the Undercity to steal Warchief Morally Grey's favorite torture victim. Obviously this can't translate to gameplay but it's a poor argument given that the Orcs were ready to lynch DKs before whomever is Warchief tells them to calm down. If they even are accepted, they definitely live on the fringes, and most importantly aren't the friggin Warchief.

Now I do agree that the principles on display are inconsistent as hell when Baine and Saurfang say nothing of Sylvanas killing her own troops and raising them as mindless undead, but raising one guy as a Forsaken then brainwashing him is the devil's work and worthy of killing other Forsaken. But your examples aren't the best ones.

[Ashiraya]

Why are people still bothering with the Blood Oath anyway?

Every current member of the Horde bar the most recent recruits have all betrayed their oath and their Warchief. For orc veterans, more than once.

The Horde should at this point have an established culture of scrutinising their leaders and quickly replacing them if something's not quite right, far more so than the Alliance. And yet somehow it seems to be a surprise every time.

Sure, sure, loyalty before honour and all that, but how long is this clown carnival going to go on before they realise that the Horde and the Warchief are different things? Sometimes it's actually possible to be loyal to the former while also acknowledging that the latter is going totally bananas.

[Maxilian]

Now I do agree that the principles on display are inconsistent as hell when Baine and Saurfang say nothing of Sylvanas killing her own troops and raising them as mindless undead, but raising one guy as a Forsaken then brainwashing him is the devil's work and worthy of killing other Forsaken. But your examples aren't the best ones.

Well the part of killing her own people was a deal breaker for Saurfang (he wanted to die after that).

Though as someone pointed out, the part of raising them as mindless undead, may not be as bad as some people point out, as their are soulless husk, more like automatons, though the part of killing them with the plague is still bad

[Super Dickmann]

@Jastall

Covered this in a later post. There are DKs in Sylvanas's employ both in Stormheim and later in Warfang. I can only assume they're defectors since I doubt she'd be all that happy with the Ebon Blade. As for slavery, Rehgar was still a top advisor to Thrall and you had giant crowds watching the gladiatorial fights to the death, so I really doubt it was anything but an open secret. Past that every expansion you have at least one example of slavery. This in the Vanilla period, TBC with the belf leper gnome slaves, Forsaken and orcs in Cataclysm, etc. Additionally, the Horde now has voidcasters that suck out the souls of fallen soldiers, and they're right on the beach.

@Bright-Flower

Ghouls have souls, per CDev:

The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence. The primary exception to this rule are liches, as liches bind their souls to a phylactery and then use the phylactery to generate a physical form; this process is why lich bodies look nothing like their mortal bodies, and also why you have to destroy a lich’s phylactery to truly kill them.

Source: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...4613?page=3#49

Some skeletons may have souls, some don't. It's inconsistent. In this case it's mostly immaterial since what matters is that to both MU orcs and tauren, who practice ancestor worship, raising their own dead would be a really big deal. Even Gul'dan didn't dare do it for fear of getting lynched and back then the orcs were committing genocide on Tuesdays and were high on demon blood.

@Maxilian

I was mostly taking the piss in the sense that slavery of one dude is bad and all, but killing people is equal to or worse. After all, if you kill someone who didn't want to be killed, you're violating their free will in the ultimate sense as once dead, they can never exercise that will again. But if we are discussing what would happen to those Baine would kill, the assumption is that Forsaken default to the Shadowlands, i.e the hell equivalent, so Baine put at least those three officers in hell to free Derek.

The morality of this game is a joke the second you start thinking about it. The issue isn't that Baine is legally wrong, that's a given, it's that he's also morally wrong.

@Ashiraya

The Horde is a completely hollow organisation, what with being created solely to conquer and being purposefully completely top down and based on personal loyalty because that's what the Legion wanted out of it. It was never structurally reformed. Most of the races have fuck all in common except wearing the same tabard. The Horde has no written norms or agreed upon cultural values that don't fall apart under the slightest scrutiny. The only thing you can call upon is the Blood Oath and per the Blood Oath, the Horde and the Warchief are one.

[Unholyground]

It would be interesting if Baine was killed then raised as a forsaken and then inevitably became their new leader when Sylvanas leaves.

[Zandalariprelate]

But none are known for being hot headed, the only one that may fall in that category is the UA Orcs leader, and she's on the side of Sylvanas. (and maybe Baine sometimes, but he's like the one in the middle of it all)

Note: Well Ji is hot headed or used to be in the Pandaren starting area

But what would Ji do this time? The current the horde leadership isn't very powerful and taking down the screecher and beta boy will surely be hard, without mention the alliance hasn't revealed any negociation plan with them(something like Varian did with the belves which fuled the rebellion), Anduin plans for peace but Dazzalor shows everyone is free to do whatever they want as long the little shit turn a blind eye or isn't informed of anything(you can see a lot of civilians and dinosaurs being killed by elementals of fire, kultirans and alliance soldiers). This expansion is making an superb job is making the faction more shit than Legion

[Maxilian]

@Maxilian

I was mostly taking the piss in the sense that slavery of one dude is bad and all, but killing people is equal to or worse. After all, if you kill someone who didn't want to be killed, you're violating their free will in the ultimate sense as once dead, they can never exercise that will again. But if we are discussing what would happen to those Baine would kill, the assumption is that Forsaken default to the Shadowlands, i.e the hell equivalent, so Baine put at least those three officers in hell to free Derek.

The morality of this game is a joke the second you start thinking about it. The issue isn't that Baine is legally wrong, that's a given, it's that he's also morally wrong.

I agree that the morality of the game is all over the place, but death (and the aftermatch of it) is something that i have hoped were the main character of this expansion, they may still pull it off but with all that have happened, it would be hard for them to put an OK outcome

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But what would Ji do this time? The current the horde leadership isn't very powerful and taking down the screecher and beta boy will surely be hard, without mention the alliance hasn't revealed any negociation plan with them(something like Varian did with the belves which fuled the rebellion), Anduin plans for peace but Dazzalor shows everyone is free to do whatever they want as long the little shit turn a blind eye or isn't informed of anything(you can see a lot of civilians and dinosaurs being killed by elementals of fire, kultirans and alliance soldiers). This expansion is making an superb job is making the faction more shit than Legion

That's why they have to buy time, cause they don't have such an easy answer this time, though they do have Saurfang incognito, and he have some of a relationship with Anduin (as he was freed by him), so its a start.

It may end up going nowhere though