Why is M Jaina so mistuned?

[spleen1015]

Other than the tuning, how does every one feel about this fight? On another board that totally unrelated to WoW, but has a small WoW player base, it was said that this is the best raid encounter ever. That's subjective, but was wondering the opinions here.

[Faesroll]

Why does it feel like all the players bitching about the raid's difficulty don't even step into mythic

[Poe]

Only problem I have with this raid is how mythic champions is easier than final 6 bosses on heroic. And arguably easier than some normal mode bosses.

A mythic boss should never be easier than half the raid on heroic or god forbid a normal mode boss.

[Frolk]

Why does it feel like all the players bitching about the raid's difficulty don't even step into mythic

Cause all mythic raiders are "elitists" and they expect ppl to "put in effort", so they stick to lfr/normal "raiding"

[spxhqtn]

Cause all mythic raiders are "elitists" and they expect ppl to "put in effort", so they stick to lfr/normal "raiding"

What's wrong with putting in effort?

[Frolk]

What's wrong with putting in effort?

Ask the ppl who shit on mythic raiders for various reasons. Putting in effort=no lifer according to lfr "raiders"

[MrExcelion]

Other than the tuning, how does every one feel about this fight? On another board that totally unrelated to WoW, but has a small WoW player base, it was said that this is the best raid encounter ever. That's subjective, but was wondering the opinions here.

Ask after us lowly mortals on MMOC kill it, haha

Some aspects are interesting, though I could see people taking issue with the blandness of P2 mechanics

Definitely looks like a significant improvement over G'huun

[Argorwal]

I think the fact that she was killed before first reset just goes to show how undertuned she is. imo to kill any boss in the second half of a raid, your entire raid should numerically have to be in at least 75% gear from the previous half of the raid, and to kill the last boss your raid should have to be in at least 90% of gear from the raid as a whole, before that boss. it should take weeks before even the best guilds clear these raids. its pitifully undertuned.

You want a guild as skilled as Method to be at ~412 average item level in a raid that drops 415 to even have a shot at the kill? Rather than the 405 they did it at? Even with their skill and class stacking capability?

How would a guild outside the top 10 ever kill a boss that is both so numerically challenging and mechanically challenging that the best players in the world "require" near full raid gear?

The gear gap of later guilds being in better gear is what makes up the skill gap in their ability to push their classes and raids to the limit. A boss like this would stonewall virtually everyone until massive nerfs come out, even more so than the 3-5 waves of nerfs every final boss gets over a raid tier.

[Orwell7]

You want a guild as skilled as Method to be at ~412 average item level in a raid that drops 415 to even have a shot at the kill? Rather than the 405 they did it at? Even with their skill and class stacking capability?

How would a guild outside the top 10 ever kill a boss that is both so numerically challenging and mechanically challenging that the best players in the world "require" near full raid gear?

The gear gap of later guilds being in better gear is what makes up the skill gap in their ability to push their classes and raids to the limit. A boss like this would stonewall virtually everyone until massive nerfs come out, even more so than the 3-5 waves of nerfs every final boss gets over a raid tier.

Actually this is very simple - if you think about it, which raids was the most popular, which was considered among the best?

The answer is the HARDEST and MOST CHALLENGING ones!
Big raids like HFC, Antorus, SoO, ToT, Ulduar, ICC, BRF, even Naxxramas 25 was popular and well received when wotlk came out.

Even with many bosses, in the past Blizzard was able to tune the instances properly, to make them really challenging for even the top players and the rest of us.
How? -> by making gear progression INSIDE the instance. This can include item-level scaling by making the middle bosses drop +5, and end-bosses drop +10 item levels, as well as drops like legendaries, OP trinkets, OP set bonuses (!).
Also, most of these instances had built-in nerfs over the course of their lifetime, making the difficulty of the "first ones" even bigger.

Some examples: ICC 5-30% nerf, HFC - Archimonde trinkets and greater ilvls, SoO - warforges + valor point upgrades.
Generally, people DO LIVE UP to the expectations. Even if a boss is a freakin' nightmare, we will do it eventually. If they are so overtuned nerfs are recommended.

So there are a LOT of tools to make the world first race more interesting.
This whole RNG-thing just makes it -in my opinion- a little unfair, just look at the sheer number of heroic runs and HOW they did it. This feels awkward... I look for RPG elements and one of the BIGGEST selling points for me in an RPG is to make myself become stronger and stronger.
To see a clear path of HOW I can be stronger. ARPG should have this randomness, not an MMO. I think most of us love gear progression, and valor upgrades or points, currencies, set bonuses and other "spreadsheet"s are fun!
To optimize my gear with multiple colored sockets - yes, I know there IS an optimal answer, but hey, I would gladly use versa/mastery gems on my destro lock just to make the healers life a little easier. I can do that now, OK, but maybe getting 1-2 bonuses and the rest are defensives? I think it's fun.

Oh and how can I forget hard modes! I still cannot get over this right-click and switch the instance difficulty thing. I know we used to it but it DOES lessen the impression of clearing _THE_ raid, and not just a "version" of the raid.

[Corroc]

Big raids like HFC, Antorus, SoO, ToT, Ulduar, ICC, BRF, even Naxxramas 25 was popular and well received when wotlk came out.

This is the moment that everyone knew he fucked up.
Naxx didn't even feel like raid. Only reason guilds kept doing it until Ulduar was because of the achievement that required no one to die in the run.

[Volardelis]

There is a portion of players who believe the bugged overtuned encounters of yesteryear (fucking Mu'ru god I hate bringing up Mu'ru) are indications that raids are too easy now. They want fucked up and broken raids so they can say "it's take x guild x weeks to clear! :O".

Person 1 "back in my day, no-one killed Kael'thas until BT came out"

person 2 "because he was bugged"

Person 1 "Fake news!"

What is even more funny is that Illidan was killed before Archimonde, (by 4 days), even though Archimonde was "meant" to be done before Black Temple.

[Argorwal]

Actually this is very simple - if you think about it, which raids was the most popular, which was considered among the best?

The answer is the HARDEST and MOST CHALLENGING ones!
Big raids like HFC, Antorus, SoO, ToT, Ulduar, ICC, BRF, even Naxxramas 25 was popular and well received when wotlk came out.

Even with many bosses, in the past Blizzard was able to tune the instances properly, to make them really challenging for even the top players and the rest of us.
How? -> by making gear progression INSIDE the instance. This can include item-level scaling by making the middle bosses drop +5, and end-bosses drop +10 item levels, as well as drops like legendaries, OP trinkets, OP set bonuses (!).
Also, most of these instances had built-in nerfs over the course of their lifetime, making the difficulty of the "first ones" even bigger.

Some examples: ICC 5-30% nerf, HFC - Archimonde trinkets and greater ilvls, SoO - warforges + valor point upgrades.
Generally, people DO LIVE UP to the expectations. Even if a boss is a freakin' nightmare, we will do it eventually. If they are so overtuned nerfs are recommended.

So there are a LOT of tools to make the world first race more interesting.
This whole RNG-thing just makes it -in my opinion- a little unfair, just look at the sheer number of heroic runs and HOW they did it. This feels awkward... I look for RPG elements and one of the BIGGEST selling points for me in an RPG is to make myself become stronger and stronger.
To see a clear path of HOW I can be stronger. ARPG should have this randomness, not an MMO. I think most of us love gear progression, and valor upgrades or points, currencies, set bonuses and other "spreadsheet"s are fun!
To optimize my gear with multiple colored sockets - yes, I know there IS an optimal answer, but hey, I would gladly use versa/mastery gems on my destro lock just to make the healers life a little easier. I can do that now, OK, but maybe getting 1-2 bonuses and the rest are defensives? I think it's fun.

Oh and how can I forget hard modes! I still cannot get over this right-click and switch the instance difficulty thing. I know we used to it but it DOES lessen the impression of clearing _THE_ raid, and not just a "version" of the raid.

If people really loved the hardest raids because if their difficulty mythic ToS would be everyone's favorite.

[Druitz]

Come on... There are a lot of upgrades to get... Average guilds will farm mythic for weeks before defeating jaina + they will get higher ilvl neck = more traits. It is normal that it takes some time to beat last boss, they don't have best items possible and also it takes some time to figure out tactic

[laplacedemon]

HARDEST and MOST CHALLENGING
Naxxramas 25

You might be the first person in history who used these words that close to each other.

I don't think overall hardness/challenge a raid has it the most important factor here anyway. The theme and aesthetics aside, how "fun" and replayable a raid seems more important -otherwise Tomb of Soakgeras or Terrace of Endless Annoyance would be more beloved. How long it takes to clear a raid seems less important than how memorable it is; as in I have zero memories about Vizier although it wasn't easy by any means but I will always remember flying on Alysrazor. But it's not a easy math obviously otherwise we'd have one good raid after another.

[Queen of Hamsters]

So half of the community is saying the raid too easy overall and others saying Jaina is too hard.. Hmm. Jaina isn't that much different than other end bosses in the past. I mean it IS killable right now. Method was a few percentage away yesterday.

The OP doesn't represent the "other half", he's always bitching about something and often contradicts himself to be "contra" to the running popular opinion.

[Polarthief]

Other than the tuning, how does every one feel about this fight? On another board that totally unrelated to WoW, but has a small WoW player base, it was said that this is the best raid encounter ever. That's subjective, but was wondering the opinions here.

As someone who has done the fight twice on Heroic and yet to see it on Mythic, it's okay but I'd hardly call it the best encounter. P2 especially is just boooooring. P1 and P3 are okay, though I think the "freezing everyone in the raid at different intervals" thing is a bit... weird. What's funnier is that it was actually HARDER to do in Normal for us because of the lack of the orb so pretty much the entire raid got frozen.

After 2 Heroic kills, I still feel like I don't fully understand P3 correctly, while every other boss just clicks.

Ask the ppl who shit on mythic raiders for various reasons. Putting in effort=no lifer according to lfr "raiders"

Which is funny because most of my guild actually comes home directly from their full time jobs where their SO is waiting for them, and we're 4/9M. Honestly, I think it's just jealousy from the LFR/Normal crowd because they're not good enough and won't ever be good enough with that kind of attitude.

PS: Not saying ^ is me, I'll admit I definitely should be doing more IRL but it's not like playing Mythic is causing that in any way. 6 hours a week is more than enough to be clearing Mythic. Hell you could do it with less.


Overall though, this entire raid is definitely undertuned. I'm still a bit in shock we got 4/9M by the second week of Mythic, 3 of those bosses being killed this week (guild derped too hard on H Jaina and M Grong first week). Each boss in Uldir took us like 1-2 weeks. These are just a touch too easy with most of the Mythic changes being like 1-2 tiny things.

[Osmeric]

Reminder that Uldar had the best raid structure of all time and mythic, lfr, and heroic was a mistake

GC commented that Ulduar was the worst performing raid on Wrath, from the devs' point of view. There's a reason ToC came out so soon afterward.

[Orwell7]

GC commented that Ulduar was the worst performing raid on Wrath, from the devs' point of view. There's a reason ToC came out so soon afterward.

And this is a great example of how far Blizzard devs have been from their audience...

[FelPlague]

I don't think farming heroics and dungeons for half the week instead of actually progressing because of such a mistuned encounter really qualifies as "an insane test".

so you mean like every single raid in history?

- - - Updated - - -

Actually this is very simple - if you think about it, which raids was the most popular, which was considered among the best?

The answer is the HARDEST and MOST CHALLENGING ones!
Big raids like HFC, Antorus, SoO, ToT, Ulduar, ICC, BRF, even Naxxramas 25 was popular and well received when wotlk came out.

Even with many bosses, in the past Blizzard was able to tune the instances properly, to make them really challenging for even the top players and the rest of us.
How? -> by making gear progression INSIDE the instance. This can include item-level scaling by making the middle bosses drop +5, and end-bosses drop +10 item levels, as well as drops like legendaries, OP trinkets, OP set bonuses (!).
Also, most of these instances had built-in nerfs over the course of their lifetime, making the difficulty of the "first ones" even bigger.

Some examples: ICC 5-30% nerf, HFC - Archimonde trinkets and greater ilvls, SoO - warforges + valor point upgrades.
Generally, people DO LIVE UP to the expectations. Even if a boss is a freakin' nightmare, we will do it eventually. If they are so overtuned nerfs are recommended.

So there are a LOT of tools to make the world first race more interesting.
This whole RNG-thing just makes it -in my opinion- a little unfair, just look at the sheer number of heroic runs and HOW they did it. This feels awkward... I look for RPG elements and one of the BIGGEST selling points for me in an RPG is to make myself become stronger and stronger.
To see a clear path of HOW I can be stronger. ARPG should have this randomness, not an MMO. I think most of us love gear progression, and valor upgrades or points, currencies, set bonuses and other "spreadsheet"s are fun!
To optimize my gear with multiple colored sockets - yes, I know there IS an optimal answer, but hey, I would gladly use versa/mastery gems on my destro lock just to make the healers life a little easier. I can do that now, OK, but maybe getting 1-2 bonuses and the rest are defensives? I think it's fun.

Oh and how can I forget hard modes! I still cannot get over this right-click and switch the instance difficulty thing. I know we used to it but it DOES lessen the impression of clearing _THE_ raid, and not just a "version" of the raid.

nax 25 was hated because of how insanely easy it was. people were able to do it in leveling gear.

[rhorle]

GC commented that Ulduar was the worst performing raid on Wrath, from the devs' point of view. There's a reason ToC came out so soon afterward.

Proof? Because Ghostcrawler has said that they regret killing off Ulduar with the release of Trial of the Crusader. https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...geons-are-hard That is a far cry from saying that Ulduar is bad so lets release this raid to cover it up. Its amusing how people are using your incorrect comment to further hate on blizzard as well.

It shows how blind people are to facts and how open they are to anything that allows them to hate on blizzard

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...crawler-on-WoW

This even shows Ghostcrawler calling Ulduar his favorite raid. While favorite doesn't have anything to do with "performance" it still sounds like you are making stuff up.