The core difference between Classic and Retail wow

[Eon Drache]

I suppose we will get proof of this when classic succeeds or tanks

it'll be a success, but mostly because an mmo only needs a couple hundred k subs to be successful. However, if you ask the "classic is better" community, then it will need to use the same definition as retail. Once its been out for more than 6 months its dead.

[sam86]

1. its obvious you play private servers cause you call it retail, you realise classic wow is retail too right? cause its sold? so stop calling modern wow retail,cause they are both retail.

2. they didnt force old players to leave... what are you talking abut?
3. what do you want them to bring back in RPG? really about 90% of this is fluff, you only literally say "the game doesent feel like an RPG anymore, gear is too often"
thats it, that could have been the whole thread...

4. if you want to say something say it, we dont need a super ton of fluff, what do you want them to bring back to make the game more RPG like?

1- the word 'retail vs classic' is commonly used in community by ppl to distinguish between whatever exp we are at, and classic, not sure if blizz even used it or not
2- they changed the core game so much that ppl who loved rpg left (answer in next point)
3- SO MANY rpg elements that actually create rpg, skill lvling (weapons), professions, many stats removed, the fact that we get more spells and talents pre-cata era with each exp, i don't know a single RPG player who was like 'oh boy i can't wait to lvl to lose abilities and powers that i HAD', not to mention that slot machine we have now, titanforge made normal gear irrelevant, now u need to farm a raid for years to get the best weapon u want on ur main, instead of what - used to be - able to calculate when u can get it with guild (also usually u had to pick if u want best weapon or best chest with ur dkp, but at least u can count worst case scenario)
4- every minor small detail they removed, from learning spells, to grimoires, to reagents, and so on, all those stuff that were rpg core elements removed for modernization, it is like remove manual shooting in FPS and turn it auto, 'luckily' fps didn't have much components in first place to be removed for faster consumption modernization

wow already started using the term 'season' instead of patches, i used to be 100% sure i'll play bfa as soon flying is add, now i'm not even sure anymore

[anon5123]

Retail is all about instant gratification and no thinking, just go go go spam spam spam and get showered in epics and legendaries.

Vanilla is an actual RPG where you have to put in time and effort to get things done. You can't just spam random dungeons and get showered in gear, you have to farm materials and find someone to craft gear, or join a raiding guild and save up DKP / earn loot from loot council. There's actual "hardship" in the game, and it just makes it feel that much more rewarding when you accomplish something. Farming for weeks and then getting your Lionheart Helmet crafted feels amazing.

I've always said that retail as it is right now feels closer to Diablo 3 than original WoW. Everything is instant gratification, outdoor world content is piss easy, dungeons scale endlessly, no communication is required outside of bare minimum stuff, etc. I played both retail and vanilla, and there's a day-and-night difference between the two games, both in gameplay and community.

WoW's popularity peaked at the end of BC / beginning of Wrath

Nope, WOTLK's subscriber count did not decrease throughout the duration of the expac. Although Blizz stopped reporting them for a short time, they were around 11 million at WOTLK launch, and 12 million by the end. Decline didn't start until a few months after Cata launched.

[In Ogres We Trust]

[QUOTE=Thorbalt;50836965]

its actually pretty pathetic to see how many ways people try and say "the game got old and boring for me, but instead of accepting it and moving on im going to drop napalm on it from orbit to make it seem as bad as possible and justify some tiny pathetic grudge i have against it for some abstract reason, and anyone who disagrees with me is a white knight sucking off the company"

all the "rpg" people claim to miss was just boring worthless filler crap that the game is far better off without having in it. level 60 hunter who wants a new pet? get ready to spend the next two days leveling it up to your level because reasons. oh but the talent trees were great you would say, they were so complex and worthwhile. they were a bunch of filler crap to get to one or two good things in each tree, and even then if you had a healing spell at all you would suck at everything except healing. Could live do better with more added back in...possibly, but not if its being added for the sake of adding things alone. im one of the logical ones who understood that the "great ability purge" didnt actually mean shit because i never even pressed most of the spells they yoinked out on any class...because they were worthless filler crap

stop coming up with excuses for why you dont like the game, just admit its an old game you dont find fun in anymore and move on

Filler crap that added depth (albeit tedious).

[huth]

Nope, WOTLK's subscriber count did not decrease throughout the duration of the expac. Although Blizz stopped reporting them for a short time, they were around 11 million at WOTLK launch, and 12 million by the end.

In other words, WotLK only saw about 1/10th of the growth the game had in Vanilla and BC. Which is kinda unbound's point, and rather contradicts your's.

I started getting into incremental games a while back, with click heroes and cookie clicker, playing games like that... its breaks the mentality of gaming it breaks the idea of most games, where progress is constant but endless, all progress becomes rewarding which means no progress is rewarding.

Have you tried Realm Grinder? It's a rather different experience from most idle games i've seen, with the game constantly providing new goals beyond just "bigger numbers".

- - - Updated - - -

Filler crap that added depth (albeit tedious).

It didn't. It only added tedium and meaningless complexity. It required little to no actual thought, just a bunch of busywork.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Greetings friends,
I am 42 years old and i play games since i was 7. I joined the wow family during the beta and i played all the expansions till now but in a more casual way. Not because retail became a bad game but mostly because it started to be not likeable to my gaming needs and likes. At my opinion after Wrath the game transformed to a different one. Is it better or worst? I dont know! Surely is not the same.

So, why is that? Let me tell you what i think.
Back in the Day, most players Who liked and played fantasy games, had a heavy RPG background. The majority of us grew up reading fantasy novels, playing Pen and paper and tabletop games. It was the era of dungeon and dragons, warhammer, star wars, call of cthulhu etc etc.
That said, most of the first computer games devs had the same background and they brought that in to the games they created. Those games had more Hard core rpg elements. The games were very close to the Pen and paper rpgs where nothing was offered to the players easily. Exploration and character development was very important aspect of the game. You had to work your way to the glory by choosing the Hard way. Nothing was easy.

The first blizzard developers were all of them rpg freaks(they admited it in many interviews) and they brought that to wow. They created a revolutionary game but it was based to the rpg experiences they had. Most of the first millions of players whp joined the game were also rpg freaks. It was normal back then.

However, wow became trendy, more and more players joined,old developers left and New came, old players got old and left and younger People joined.

After Wrath, a New generation of players created. Players with no rpg experiences or at least in the same level of the old players. Gaming changed in total. The rpg community got smaller and older. Esports and fast paced action games took the lead and all those changes afficted wow too.
Blizzard had and has to deal with a New generation of gamers. They have different needs and preferances. They want everything to earn it fast and not so much theorycrafting but action.
So Blizzard tried to go with the Flow. That forced the old players to leave or at least to become inactive.
The question though is why wow is not successfull to that New generation and loses players Base? Honestly i think the New generation is not so game for mmo games and secondly, wow is created to be an mmorpg game, not Just an mmo.
I think that blizzard must make the game again an mmorpg and bring back the rpg lovers of both generation and stop developing the game for the New generation players. They like different games. Keep wow for the rpg lovers and create other games for the New generation players.

Core difference? IMO 15 years is the core difference, but 15 years is a LOT to identify and quantify when it comes to why WoW is the way it is today for better or worse. WoW hasn't progressed in a bubble.

I'm happy to see Classic WoW coming to please the fans and satisfy the curiousity of those who never experienced it. But at the same time, the past is past. Identifying the woulda-shoulda-coulda isn't going to help when the world is going to keep right on spinning.

[FelPlague]

1- the word 'retail vs classic' is commonly used in community by ppl to distinguish between whatever exp we are at, and classic, not sure if blizz even used it or not
2- they changed the core game so much that ppl who loved rpg left (answer in next point)
3- SO MANY rpg elements that actually create rpg, skill lvling (weapons), professions, many stats removed, the fact that we get more spells and talents pre-cata era with each exp, i don't know a single RPG player who was like 'oh boy i can't wait to lvl to lose abilities and powers that i HAD', not to mention that slot machine we have now, titanforge made normal gear irrelevant, now u need to farm a raid for years to get the best weapon u want on ur main, instead of what - used to be - able to calculate when u can get it with guild (also usually u had to pick if u want best weapon or best chest with ur dkp, but at least u can count worst case scenario)
4- every minor small detail they removed, from learning spells, to grimoires, to reagents, and so on, all those stuff that were rpg core elements removed for modernization, it is like remove manual shooting in FPS and turn it auto, 'luckily' fps didn't have much components in first place to be removed for faster consumption modernization

wow already started using the term 'season' instead of patches, i used to be 100% sure i'll play bfa as soon flying is add, now i'm not even sure anymore

1. so call it modern, retail means its sold, classic will be sold.
2. yes, they did, but that does not FORCE people to leave. "Hey we changed the secret sauce on our burger, and since you were a customer before, please get the fuck out and never return" how stupid does that sound?
3. yes i know, but maybe he should have talked about these? he should have made the thread about these instead of another "i quit" thread?
4. again, make the thread about this, dont make it about "i quit cause game sux" with the thin viel of "they removed stuff i like" without saying WHAT.

[sam86]

2. yes, they did, but that does not FORCE people to leave. "Hey we changed the secret sauce on our burger, and since you were a customer before, please get the fuck out and never return" how stupid does that sound?

they didn't change the sauce, they changed the entire burger, we used to have burgers now we have a gluten free vegan diet 'burger', they removed the bread and meat and mayo and left the lettuce, current wow share very little with older wow
and i wasn't this thread creator, i was just explaining some points, i may talk here and there but i'm too old to start controversy and stick to it

[FelPlague]

they didn't change the sauce, they changed the entire burger, we used to have burgers now we have a gluten free vegan diet 'burger', they removed the bread and meat and mayo and left the lettuce, current wow share very little with older wow
and i wasn't this thread creator, i was just explaining some points, i may talk here and there but i'm too old to start controversy and stick to it

They are not forcing you to leave though, you can still stay and enjoy the burger.
also no, current wow shares ALOT with old wow... Just cause you dont like it, does not mean its true.

[Armourboy]

They are not forcing you to leave though, you can still stay and enjoy the burger.
also no, current wow shares ALOT with old wow... Just cause you dont like it, does not mean its true.

Yeah sorry but you swap my nice juice cheeseburger with a vegan burger, there probably are going to be people that tell you to stuff your vegan burger.

Retail WoW isn't a bad MMO really, but it's just not what some people want from an MMO. Some of us like the feel of the old MMORPG's.

[Tekkommo]

Something along the lines of Vanilla played like a MMORPG, today's game plays more like an ActionRPG.

[Vaelorian]

RPG heavy background of older players

RPG heavy background of game devs

New generation

You basically named 3 things (if I skipped or misunderstood, I apologize) about the core difference between retail and classic/vanilla WoW.

I myself am 40 years old. I have a Dungeons & Dragons background and have played many RPG's from various game consoles starting all the way back to the NES. (I have played earlier consoles but those did not have RPG's). So I get where you are coming from.

RPG heavy background of older players
Yeah I guess.... then again.... When I started playing WoW, there were LOADS of 12 year old players running around. I highly doubt they played D&D or had any oldskool RPG background. I watched those guys grow into adulthood. But all of those people that I knew from back then, are gone now. Except for 1-2 people. And they aren't playing much either. And why is that? Is it due to RPG elements missing or being different?

RPG heavy background of game devs
I guess that the original devs are from our generation. But aren't the new guys as well? I mean you still have D&D. You still have Zelda on whatever nintendo thing there is currently. You can still play numerous diverse RPG's. RPG's like Skyrim. Man I wish we had that when I was young.
So... having a solid RPG background does not mean you are better equipped creating better RPG content, i think.

The better question though is: Why did Blizzard remove all these nifty RPG elements such as flint and tinder? I mean if I was working at a company that hired me as a dev. And they told me that flint and tinder would need to be removed.... Why would I not agree with that? And I would agree with it, because at the time bagspace was something that was scarce. Same with all other types of RPG elements that required bagspace. Hell at this point my BlackSmith Hammer is occupying a single slot... and even though almost all my bags are empty, I could do without my hammer. Why? Not because I have accustomed to QOL stuff. But because at this point in time, there is almost 0 stuff like this left, they might as well just remove everything like it.
Coming back to Vanilla. I loved every (sometimes annoying) RPG element. Certainly looking back. At the time they should have upped the bag space instead of removing those elements. But I guess that no matter how much bagspace there was, people will always complain about the mandatory stuff like flint and tinder.

New generation
Is there a new generation? And what age do you feel the new generation consists of? Because I have encountered "the new generation" from the moment I began to play games when I was 7-9 years old. "too hard! why do I need to do this? they should add a portal/save point/easy mode!"
Gaming was(is) not for everyone. And now game companies want everyone to play games. So they remove everything that makes the game chaotic, unclear and unrequired. They want people to have a smooth experience. Not a single pebble must be able to hurt a players toe.

So while I like your explanation about the core difference between Retail and Classic/Vanilla, I don't really agree with "it" being the core difference.

What is different has more to do with how Blizzard thinks they can hold on to a subscription longer. They are in it for the money. WoW was a big deal when it came out. And stayed a big deal for a long time. And everyone knows that at WOTLK or something... we had breached the 100 millionth account. At the time we had about 10 million subs active. So to me it became clear that a lot of people try out WoW and move on rather quickly. The only thing that I did not know was: How long does a new sub last?
My guess is that Blizzard tried to make this new sub last longer and longer. And I cannot blame them. People like you and me would play the game anyway most likely. (I quit my serious WoW career... mid Cata and became a casual that subs every now and again... but I have not subbed since mid Legion) So....because we are a small group... but pretty fanatic... (I was) Blizzard did not really have to pay any attention to me. I would sub almost regardless of what was presented. But those people who would get the expansion... and play the game for a month... they needed to get them to play longer.

So everything was streamlined. General difficulty (or chores) was/were reduced or diversified (normal/heroic etc etc). Gear could be obtained everywhere. Catchup mechanics (so lesser mortals who hop on and off could keep up a bit... every now and again) were introduced or made easier.

Did this hurt the core gamer? Not really. But at the same time: Yes, yes it had. Gone was prestige.

What do I think is the core difference between Retail and Classic?
The big difference was and is going to be: The Community.

And no I am not going to talk about how todays community is more toxic or less toxic. No. The community today does not exist. Atleast not as it did back in the day. You NEEDED people to complete objectives with. And in order for you to do so, you NEEDED to communicate! And you were required to be nice. Because as in real life... if you are not nice... you will not have friends or people you can count on or want to do something for you.

My guess is: If Blizzard never fucked with (yes I said fucked) the requirement of needing people ingame..... and at the same time removed all the RPG elements as they have now... the game would be in better shape.

So as long as:
1. you have dungeons that are so short you will not care to know anyone even if the difficulty is high(er)
2. are set up with people you will never meet again (crossserver)
3. quest in the open world are so pathetically easy, you won't require any help (also you meet people you will never see again, cross server)

This game won't be worth it.

[anon5123]

In other words, WotLK only saw about 1/10th of the growth the game had in Vanilla and BC.

Moving the goalposts.

Also we don't know if WOTLK's sub numbers went up, because Blizz didn't report them until close to the end of the expac.

They are not forcing you to leave though, you can still stay and enjoy the burger.

"they're not forcing you to leave, they're just serving something completely different that you don't like anymore!"

I don't like the thing they're serving anymore. They ARE forcing me to leave in that aspect, because why would anyone in their right mind stay there and eat things they don't like? Are you listening to yourself?

Why did Blizzard remove all these nifty RPG elements such as flint and tinder? I mean if I was working at a company that hired me as a dev. And they told me that flint and tinder would need to be removed.... Why would I not agree with that? And I would agree with it, because at the time bagspace was something that was scarce. Same with all other types of RPG elements that required bagspace. Hell at this point my BlackSmith Hammer is occupying a single slot... and even though almost all my bags are empty, I could do without my hammer. Why? Not because I have accustomed to QOL stuff. But because at this point in time, there is almost 0 stuff like this left, they might as well just remove everything like it.

The game has just been snowballing QoL changes throughout WOTLK and onward. Everything is getting more and more streamlined and faster/easier.

Things like having to carry around a blacksmithing hammer in your bags, or having to go back to your class trainer to learn new spell ranks, or spells requiring reagents, or mana drinks only restoring like 3% of your mana per tick and making you sit for like 20 seconds to get a good amount of mana back, or having to find a rogue to open lockboxes for you, or a Mage to make portals for you, or only certain classes being able to dispel certain debuffs, etc...all of these RPG elements were essentially viewed as "annoyances" and removed as the game progressed.

Is it better that way? I mean sure, I love not having to farm Light Feathers to use Levitate, but...that's the thing, a large part of vanilla's fun, for me, is having these small annoyances. As weird as that sounds. It makes the game feel a little more....real? I don't know how to describe it. Having these little bits of hardship in the game just gives it flavor.

[Nasudor]

Biggest difference is the time investment after reaching max level:


In Classic WoW, you can just raidlog pretty much and still conquer the whole PvE content and get the best items.
Retail, you have to spend a huge amount of time if you really want to have the best possible loot since you can farm loot pretty much 24/7 and can always have a procced upgrade. You can pretty much improve your char by faction hopping etc which makes the time/money investment as big as it can ever get if you want to clear highest PvE content.


I know a lot of people will now cry and disagree, but if you think about it... Classic is way more casual then current WoW if it comes to clear the highest content. Classic raids can be cleared with very suboptimal gear, even supoptimal specs. You can pretty much just raidlog and dont have to invest a lot of time outside of raids once you are 60. PreRaid BIS farming with a 5man grp is done in a few days and from that point onwards, there is no real time commitment anymore for the rest of the "expansion". And dont come with consumables and shit, except for manapots you can clear the content with a competent group without flasking the shit out of the group, people do that since PvE is no more challeenging and so people try to clear it as fast as possible as a challenge.
The climb to 60 is what takes the biggest time investment, after that thats it.

[Thorbalt]

1- the word 'retail vs classic' is commonly used in community by ppl to distinguish between whatever exp we are at, and classic, not sure if blizz even used it or not
2- they changed the core game so much that ppl who loved rpg left (answer in next point)
3- SO MANY rpg elements that actually create rpg, skill lvling (weapons), professions, many stats removed, the fact that we get more spells and talents pre-cata era with each exp, i don't know a single RPG player who was like 'oh boy i can't wait to lvl to lose abilities and powers that i HAD', not to mention that slot machine we have now, titanforge made normal gear irrelevant, now u need to farm a raid for years to get the best weapon u want on ur main, instead of what - used to be - able to calculate when u can get it with guild (also usually u had to pick if u want best weapon or best chest with ur dkp, but at least u can count worst case scenario)
4- every minor small detail they removed, from learning spells, to grimoires, to reagents, and so on, all those stuff that were rpg core elements removed for modernization, it is like remove manual shooting in FPS and turn it auto, 'luckily' fps didn't have much components in first place to be removed for faster consumption modernization

wow already started using the term 'season' instead of patches, i used to be 100% sure i'll play bfa as soon flying is add, now i'm not even sure anymore

You REALLY want to use weapon skill as a defense and try and pass it off as something that was good? SERIOUSLY???

ok, lets try it now. hey there mr dagger rogue who always does the top spec, now all you have been getting are fisties for your outlaw spec and you never used em before. enjoy missing everything for the next 6 hours while you level your weapon skill up.

resistances were a gimmick and basically used to force you to regear just to avoid instagibbing in raids. if you wanted an "rpg friendly" alternative its easy enough to do a quest to go to water elementals and do things for them to get a flask like resist item that doesnt conflict with potions. that took like 20 seconds to come up with too, and its not nearly as retarded as resistances were back in the day.

as for stats well...defense was the melee version of resistance, and i have NEVER seen any single tank tell people they long for the days where they had to juggle their hit cap with their uncrushable mins on top of their resist gear. Right, everyone and their dog hated hit caps, defense and resists.

oh and look, its the "titanforging makes bis impossible" arguement, leaving out that it only does so for people who are too stupid to not understand that base = best, base + forge = awesomesauce. instead they go base = crap, only high forge is acceptable because we dont have people who play the game anymore, we have losers who sim the game to make it as short as possible because they are truly pathetic gamers.

now please, tell me more of the removed systems everyone hated that you claim are good for the game because "muh arrpeegee"

[Heathy]

the resist fights were few and far between, it helps to have resistances on ragnaros, it doesn't take long before you only need say pala aura and the resistances you got from your t1 plus say the trinkets from diremaul that also had some fire resist on it or the drakefire amulet. you didn't really need to stack fire resists to kill raggy, maybe the first few kills it will really help to have everyone over 150 using fire protection potions, but once you've cleared the place a bunch of times you'll see that its no longer required, you'll out gear the need for massive amounts of fire resist when raggy dies before the submerge.

any bosses in bwl require resistances? you needed the ony scale cape that was about it.

aq40, nature resistance for maybe 1 boss?

naxx frost resist for sapphiron.

the resistance based fights were really few and far between. in tbc then you had hydross, where you needed two tanks one with frost resist and one with nature resist, and that was pretty much the best fight where resistances were involved. mother sharjah required shadow resistance but she eventually got nerfed so that you didn't really need to stack it to kill her. and that was it for tbc, two resistance fights.

in terms of hit rating, only warriors rogues and hunters need to worry about hit, everyone else doesn't need to worry about hit. palas priests and druids will usually be healing so they don't need hit. casters afaik won't have problems with hitting until naxx? did any gear even have hit on it in classic before naxx? I know gear had hit in tbc and expertise but i can't say i remember hit being a wide spread stat in classic. the stats i remember the most were.

crit %
magical and damage spells
healing spells
mp5
defence
attack power

and that was pretty much it. there was no tertiaries, no mastery, no haste. (I think there is a glove enchant with 1% haste and thats it)

I think of the stats that were removed, hit rating/expertise/defence/mp5 what we got instead was mastery, and more haste. in the game now there are like 36 unique masteries. that is a lot of mechanical depth.

[anon5123]

In Classic WoW, you can just raidlog pretty much and still conquer the whole PvE content and get the best items.
Retail, you have to spend a huge amount of time if you really want to have the best possible loot since you can farm loot pretty much 24/7 and can always have a procced upgrade. You can pretty much improve your char by faction hopping etc which makes the time/money investment as big as it can ever get if you want to clear highest PvE content.

Thanks for confirming that you've never actually played vanilla.

You cannot "raidlog" unless you're in some shitter casual guild that takes months to clear BWL / AQ and never even touches Naxx. In vanilla, you need to farm consumables and get world buffs and get crafted gear and such, you don't "raidlog" unless you're already stocked to the teeth with consumes. Not to mention all the raid attunements you need, which do not exist at all in retail.

Yes, in retail, you do spend a huge amount of time.........repeatedly farming the same raids hoping that you get a completely RNG higher-ilevel titanforged piece of gear. That's not gameplay, that's artificial RNG bullshit designed to keep you playing longer.

Also no, nobody "faction hops" other than 0.0001% top guilds who are pushing for world firsts (which is fucking hilarious because who even cares anymore, game is super old)

- - - Updated - - -

did any gear even have hit on it in classic before naxx? I know gear had hit in tbc

I still wonder why people come here to make these arguments and debates about vanilla, when they have never even played it at all.

in the game now there are like 36 unique masteries. that is a lot of mechanical depth.

....but the stat is still just "mastery". And for most classes it's just a flat "increases your damage by x%"....that's not depth, fucking rofl

[Teri]

Biggest difference remains the 1 version of content vs 4+ versions of the same content.

Vanilla didn't have a LFR gear vs Mythic max Titanforged gear difference within the same Raid.

Vanilla Gear power did more steadily increase, and even then, some older sets were better until you had 5 or 8 pieces of the new one.

Some outliers exist like Weapons and Trinkets or specific smaller sets like ZG. Weapons and Trinkets from previous tiers were still desired by raiders due to the nature of the number of drops + drop RNG vs 40 people.

Vanilla dungeon gear being 1 version of course make most of it obsolete from leveling or progression through raids, Trinkets usually lasted a lot longer.

But that was the feeling of actually getting powerful instead of some M+ version of a dungeon you first encounter as "leveling dungeon" when questing in Legion or BFA.

Now dungeon and world quest itemlevel gets periodically updated, and new zones tend to have much higher health/damage enemies (Broken Shore/Argus vs 7.0 zones) with Catch-up gear setting the new bottom for new/returning players.

I'll leave PvP out of this as it's so vastly different, it's even harder to compare.

[Nasudor]

Thanks for confirming that you've never actually played vanilla.

You cannot "raidlog" unless you're in some shitter casual guild that takes months to clear BWL / AQ and never even touches Naxx. In vanilla, you need to farm consumables and get world buffs and get crafted gear and such, you don't "raidlog" unless you're already stocked to the teeth with consumes. Not to mention all the raid attunements you need, which do not exist at all in retail.

Wrong, cleared AQ40 on Retail, cleared Naxx on private servers. On both servers, we had several people that never flasked unless it was more then mandatory because several people slacked in their performance so hard that we had to counter the bad performance. Show me a CALCULATION that shows that using so much consumables and worldbuffs is MENDATORY to kill the boss. You have to prove me that bosses are unkillable without worldbuffs/pot stacking other then manapotion.

Attuments are a Joke in Vanilla, you complete all attuments in 1 day easily, Onyxia being the one that takes you around a whole afternoon. MC pre takes 25min, BWL takes 45min, AQ/ZG has none, Naxx takes 0 minutes since you can buy in with honored already and by the time naxx releases, you have more then enough nexus shards to pay them.



Calling gear-proccs artifical bullshit that just increases game time but on the other hand arguing that you "need to farm" consumables is just laughable. If the consumables actually would be mendatory, that they would also be a reson to just increase peoples ingame time.

[Highelf]

You REALLY want to use weapon skill as a defense and try and pass it off as something that was good? SERIOUSLY???

ok, lets try it now. hey there mr dagger rogue who always does the top spec, now all you have been getting are fisties for your outlaw spec and you never used em before. enjoy missing everything for the next 6 hours while you level your weapon skill up.

resistances were a gimmick and basically used to force you to regear just to avoid instagibbing in raids. if you wanted an "rpg friendly" alternative its easy enough to do a quest to go to water elementals and do things for them to get a flask like resist item that doesnt conflict with potions. that took like 20 seconds to come up with too, and its not nearly as retarded as resistances were back in the day.

as for stats well...defense was the melee version of resistance, and i have NEVER seen any single tank tell people they long for the days where they had to juggle their hit cap with their uncrushable mins on top of their resist gear. Right, everyone and their dog hated hit caps, defense and resists.

oh and look, its the "titanforging makes bis impossible" arguement, leaving out that it only does so for people who are too stupid to not understand that base = best, base + forge = awesomesauce. instead they go base = crap, only high forge is acceptable because we dont have people who play the game anymore, we have losers who sim the game to make it as short as possible because they are truly pathetic gamers.

now please, tell me more of the removed systems everyone hated that you claim are good for the game because "muh arrpeegee"

Wow that was a long reply. Breathe...in.....out. I for one liked the weapon skills in Classic.