Why do the people that enjoyed Legion not enjoy BfA?

[MiiiMiii]

Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems
It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems
It has the same PvP gearing system
It has the same PvP rank system
It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
1. Azerite Armor system
2. Island Expeditions
3. War mode
4. Warfront

Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?

[Lochton]

Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems
It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems
It has the same PvP gearing system
It has the same PvP rank system
It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
1. Azerite Armor system
2. Island Expeditions
3. War mode
4. Warfront

Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?

The Azerite system isn't even new, just a new UI, you had it in your weapon and that is apparently how it'll be changed to again.

[Sencha]

This is also something I don't understand.

BfA a just a reskinned Legion, yet Legion is still considered as a good expansion.

[Ryzael]

am i misremembering or wasnt legion also considered bad until late in the xpac?

[Greyvax]

The existing systems that were new in legion were fun in legion because they were new. Mythic+ and artifact weapons were a huge hit.

The new systems and bfa were poorly executed. At the beginning, you could only do a warfront once every 3 weeks. That was bad. By the time they fixed that whole mess and added another warfront, most people who quit during bfa had quit by then.

Warmode isn't content, its just toggleable pvp which already existed.

Azerite system is just a watered down version of artifact weapons, and is much more frustrating since once again its RNG dependant getting the right pieces of gear with the traits you want.

There's nothing interesting about island expeditions. They should have been MoP scenarios reborn with clear objectives, and instead its just "do stuff till the bar fills up".

[FelPlague]

am i misremembering or wasnt legion also considered bad until late in the xpac?

Cause its how human mentality and memory work.
everything now is bad, everything from the past is the best, and everything in the future will get better.

its why people suddenly are saying WoD was a really great expansion.


BFA has everything from legion it needs to succeed. issue is
1. class design- spells have been cut, and we lost even more from artifact
2. azerite having to re-earn traits, luckily 8.2 will fix this, but it may be too little too late
3. rng, while we did step back with weapons and azerite unable to titanforge now. we still run into the rest of the issues with said system.

if these things were fixed, BFA could be in MUCH, MUCH BETTER PLACE.

islands and warfronts are fine, they dont effect the rest of the game that much, but those 3 things are key points of every aspect of the game.

[StaeleAilar]

This is also something I don't understand.

BfA a just a reskinned Legion, yet Legion is still considered as a good expansion.

IMO the issue between the two is that they kept the *worst* parts of the grind of legion for BFA, and they cut everything that made the grind "worth it". AP is the same.. its AP.. but its for literally nothing interesting or fun.

In legion you put it into your weapon and for the first 50 something levels it actually mattered, You got new abilities, or tweaks to existing abilities that didn't basically add up to a flat ~200 stat buff static whereas the azerite system is dull, and changes very little game play for most specs. Add to that that the tier set bonuses are gone, the fun trinkets are gone they're all boring stat sticks, again. WQ's are exactly the same, the paragon rewards are less incentive than they were in legion to be done, so people are doing less WQ's.

Add all of that to the fact that classes were not finished for launch, and are still not. Promised a rework and given one new talent and some number tuning then told oh yeah woops we used the wrong words, just wait till the next xpac we got ya promise *fingers crossed behind their back*.

[SirCowdog]

It has the same looting systems
It has the same titanforging system

These two are tied together, and false. Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

1) Personal loot for everything. No master loot. This is super important for progression.
2) Azerite gear can not titanforge, and azerite drops often force you to re-grind traits and abilities you already had.
3) Not having an artifact weapon and its traits limits a pretty significant part of progression and power curve.
4) No legendaries to boost performance.

Considering that WoW is fundamentally a loot-based game, this is pretty damn significant change. Throw on top of that classes which had a large portion of their talents and abilities removed, the total removal of the class order hall, the loss of flight and grind/timegate to get it AGAIN, and you have a fundamental undercut in the feeling of empowerment and enjoyment for a LOT of players.

I can not stress enough how significant this is. Taking that much empowerment out of the hands of players and replacing it with nothing is at the heart of many people's lack of enjoyment of BfA. At one point during beta or early after BfA launch, Ion told us they had to cull and remove a bunch of stuff to make room for new things. Where are these "new" things? Islands? Warfronts? Don't make me laugh!

[tankbug]

I enjoy Bfa too, but I feel Legion gave me more incentive to play, because I loved how they further gave classes and specs a more unique identity through the lore and artifact weapon. Who even thinks about their azerite medallion ever? Although Legion was all about the alliance and alliance races destroying the burning legion, lore is even more imbalanced in BfA, where the Horde has been reduced to slaves of the Lich Queen. (This might have changed. I haven't run the latest raid, and have avoided all lore surrounding it, so I can (possibly) enjoy unspoiled when I get to it )

[Bane-Thunder-God]

This is also something I don't understand.

BfA a just a reskinned Legion, yet Legion is still considered as a good expansion.

Cause Morons will be Morons.

I loved Wotlk and enjoyed legion and currently enjoying bfa... so not any issue for me.

The expansion i didnt like was Cata. Thats what i consider to be the worst xpac. and after Cata is BC. BC was far too hardcore for a casual like me.

- - - Updated - - -

Cause its how human mentality and memory work.
everything now is bad, everything from the past is the best, and everything in the future will get better.

its why people suddenly are saying WoD was a really great expansion.


BFA has everything from legion it needs to succeed. issue is
1. class design- spells have been cut, and we lost even more from artifact
2. azerite having to re-earn traits, luckily 8.2 will fix this, but it may be too little too late
3. rng, while we did step back with weapons and azerite unable to titanforge now. we still run into the rest of the issues with said system.

if these things were fixed, BFA could be in MUCH, MUCH BETTER PLACE.

islands and warfronts are fine, they dont effect the rest of the game that much, but those 3 things are key points of every aspect of the game.

hahaha true, people hated WoD when it released now all i see is how WoD was good. People forget how bad Cata was....

[La]

This is also something I don't understand.

BfA a just a reskinned Legion, yet Legion is still considered as a good expansion.

Legion still gave us things, it didn't take things away. No new talents, pruning of abilities, no new abilities, removal of legendaries which, with their fair share of problems, altered playstyles a bit. The removal of tier sets, the removal of unique class armor sets, the removal of master loot, the removal of anything other than "Adds x dmg/healing to y ability" in azerite, filling neither the gap in an artifact or removal of legendaries, or loss of tier set bonus. Continuing to keep the one part of artifacts that everyone hated: grinding power.

I'm sorry, but anyone making a post and saying "Legion has the same systems as BFA, therefore why was Legion not as bad as BFA?" makes me facepalm.

[SirCowdog]

its why people suddenly are saying WoD was a really great expansion.

People say WoD was great because either:

A) They didn't actually play it until the very last patch.
B) They're shilling.
C) BfA is SO bad it just makes WoD seem better by comparison.

islands and warfronts are fine, they dont effect the rest of the game that much, but those 3 things are key points of every aspect of the game.

Ditch islands and WFs entirely and give us more Mage Tower type challenges.

[Relapses]

I'm the opposite. Legion burned me out but BfA is actually exactly the kind of MMO I enjoy playing. Granted, all of the "improvements" in BfA were introduced in Legion, I'd just quit the game by the time they'd be implemented. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[eridil]

Because the classes function is the worst it has ever been.
Because Warfronts are an easy mode joke.
Because Island expeditions are not an expedition, but a crapy timmer.
Because RNG and getting +5 item level ain't fun
Because we want some semblance of control over our loot.
Because people are realizing the daily quest system is horrible
MoP daily system was superior and more compelling which is sad to say.

I myself loved Warmode, but it became a joke because of the dwindling player base.
I never thought mythic plus was cool as timers don't make compelling gameplay.
Legion was not the best expansion it was ok, but it was not great.

[MyndZero]

It's because they aren't new and that revealed their true flaws. They were new in legion but aren't anymore in BFA, it just feels like more of the same which ended up also highlighting that maybe it isn't as fun as everyone thought it was because the 'newness' factor has completely worn off now.

The current systems just aren't well designed for the long-term health of the game and this expansion has highlighted that fact, but it also doesn't help their big new of warfronts were extremely bad and their island expeditions which in and of itself isn't fun also happened to be built upon another system and highlighted itself as not being fun either this expansion.

[Relapses]

People say WoD was great because either:

A) They didn't actually play it until the very last patch.
B) They're shilling.
C) BfA is SO bad it just makes WoD seem better by comparison.

Or: D) they enjoyed the fucking expansion. You don't get to put every player who ever played WoD into a happy little box just because you didn't like it.

[sirethas]

For me personally because BFA just feels like Legion patch, and all the new features it tried to introduce failed at execution pretty badly. All those new features are half assed completed, losing artifact felt so bad it actually felt like deleveing from 110 to 120 and even now it doesn't feel much better. Some of the specs just don't work since begining of the bfa while blizzard promised rework which didn't happen (and according to latest q&a it won't happen till next expansion) and just buffed their spells and added some resource managment (for example shadow priest, which is just a shadow form of it's Legion time). The story is weird at the best, some stuff doesn't even make sense, this whole conflict seems to be very wonky. I don't know man, BFA feels like handicapped brother of Legion, while having it's main features, all of it's unique features are just...well, retarded.

[jstnw89]

BfA is a neutered retread of Legion.. it is a gigantic patch that removes a bunch of things, replaces them with nothing, and makes the general game play loop a big slog.. And it will cost you only $50 bucks for that pleasure

-edit-

The story is also idiotic and lame as fuck thus far. Will probably improve but FacTIon WArZZ was how it was marketed and what is presented thus far and it's as pointless as ever.

[Azzurri]

It's just a crapper iteration of Legion, instead of improving on the systems they made them less fun. More RNG, BORING classes, Boring 'New' systems i.e Islands and Warfronts, ect.

[Malix Farwin]

Well to put it quite simple, every feature BFA has added or changed has been for the detriment for the game.

Lets talk about the carry overs:

It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems

These two points for example, dungeon systems are part of a stock build for example(every xpac has dungeons). Now the second point you brought up is wrong, it is not the same mythic+ system. The dungeons are more designed around their later implementations of dungeons in Legion(which were the least ran dungeons) while the earlier version of legion dungeons(the ones in 7.0) were much more enjoyable to run. Secondly, they also change when you got affixes and the affixes themselves. Third, they rewarded much more artifact power and were a viable way to farm AP instead of being forced to do it through islands.=, this in turn promoted high ilvl players to do lower ilvl keys which in turn made the mythic+ system work at all key levels.

It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems

First point is again stock xpac, they all come with raids. The second point you are again wrong, they drastically changed the loot in BFA down to removing master loot and enforcing personal loot. Tier sets are gone, Trinkets are worse(at least in Legion at this point in time we were in NH where there was at least 1 interesting trinket for most classes, there's nothing interesting in BoD), and gear design is awful.

It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

Near the end of Legion people were already getting burned out on doing world quest, they needed something fresh and new to replace it, not recycle it. Titanforging is a system not many liked to begin with.

Overall i would rate Legion as my number 2-3 xpac but BFA is definitely the worst one ive ever played(played every xpac but WoD). Class design is bad, islands feel more like a chore then enjoyable content, warfronts are boring as well and for many confusing, and warmode is just a zergfest.

Now what makes the Azerite System different from the Artifact system is the way it did progression. The Artifact system felt like(especially at the start and even at this point of the xpac) felt like you were building towards traits you were unlocking and keeping to make your character stronger. The system system is basically grinding to unlock things you already had just at a higher ilvl, it feels really bad and thats why the Devs are scrapping it.

Last but certainly not least, the class design. Saying it is terrible wouldn't do it justice as to how bad it is. Players use their toons as a way to interact with the ingame world, if it feels bad, your experience will be bad. Good Class design can make a mediocre xpac feel amazing(example. MoP, while its features and content were very basic it had some of the best class design this game has ever seen). Alternatively if your class design is awful it could make everything else feel a lot worse then they actually are(possible for me to like islands a bit mroe if the classes in this game played better for example).

Overall outside of the stock things you expect from a new xpac, everything else feels worse then Legion and the actual new features BFA brought are even worse then that.