Do you support Alliance genocide of Horde races?

[Terongor]

Who says the orcs wouldnt have returned? The portal was only shut after taking back one of the stolen artifacts from Dreanor. And Nerzull portals from Dreanor would have destroyed the Eastern kingdom if left unchecked since it corrupted the land.

This is really streching it, going by that the Horde is already at total war against the Alliance. Those mages started the whole thing!

Grom attacked and waged war against the Alliance they had every right to imprison him, end of story.

Who says they didnt demand? They cleary didnt want them there. Its their lands and the Warsong didnt care,and Thrall did nothing about it because the plot demanded it.

Khadgar and Turalyon talked like it was extremely unlikely and it was only though as a possibility in farout future in their conversation. As Gaz told them that Draenor was dying so in time it would have just died out. Also a thing that alliance didn't know they didn't attack there because they though that his portals would destroy eastern kingdoms.

It wasn't a total war, but to safeguard from a hostile force destroy the ones supporting as it protects forsakens.

He only raided supplies, protected warsongs and planned to free orcs from the camps.

They didn't say anything about it in wc3 or chronicles 3 when they made the peace, as such it was a white peace without terms, like returning the lands

[ausoin]

Khadgar and Turalyon talked like it was extremely unlikely and it was only though as a possibility in farout future in their conversation. As Gaz told them that Draenor was dying so in time it would have just died out. Also a thing that alliance didn't know they didn't attack there because they though that his portals would destroy eastern kingdoms.

It wasn't a total war, but to safeguard from a hostile force destroy the ones supporting as it protects forsakens.

He only raided supplies, protected warsongs and planned to free orcs from the camps.

They didn't say anything about it in wc3 or chronicles 3 when they made the peace, as such it was a white peace without terms, like returning the lands

The orcs invaded again from Dreanor, as such the Alliance had every reason to invade Dreneor, their goals doesnt mater, since they had every right to attack anyway.


So let me get this straight, the Alliance has no right to go after Grom even though he invaded and waged war against the Alliance, but the Forsaken have every right to launch entire campgains in Arathi and Hillsbrad because they supported a couple of mages, in what way they supported you cant explain. Talk about double standards.

One of the few canon sources about it is that orc speech about taking all of Ashenvale. We can brush it off as nothing but that is still cannon, unlike saying the NE accepted Horde presence.

[Avellon]

Riddle me this, who cast the first stone? It's an endless circle of hatred.

[Terongor]

The orcs invaded again from Dreanor, as such the Alliance had every reason to invade Dreneor, their goals doesnt mater, since they had every right to attack anyway.


So let me get this straight, the Alliance has no right to go after Grom even though he invaded and waged war against the Alliance, but the Forsaken have every right to launch entire campgains in Arathi and Hillsbrad because they supported a couple of mages, in what way they supported you cant explain. Talk about double standards.

One of the few canon sources about it is that orc speech about taking all of Ashenvale. We can brush it off as nothing but that is still cannon, unlike saying the NE accepted Horde presence.

I'm not saying they did or didn't have a right to attack draenor or trying to capture grom, but as interment camps had less humane treament than the forsakens did the humane thing would have being only to aim to kill Grom.

But grom part is still irelevant to the new horde vs alliance which started more war or instigated major battles.

Well thats still just a one orc not even the leader of the warsong outriders its same as saying 7th legion is genocidal when some of its memberd says they want to wipe out the entire horde.

They didn't accept like "yeah its yours" but they didn't demand thrall troops to leave ashenvale alone when they allied in wc3 against Archimonde nor did they during founding of durotar and the source you pointed out said only a night elf army is trying make them leave neither Tyrande nor Thrall is saying about it.

[Aucald]

Riddle me this, who cast the first stone? It's an endless circle of hatred.

The Legion cast the first stone, and the Horde and Alliance have danced to its tune since WC1.

[ausoin]

I'm not saying they did or didn't have a right to attack draenor or trying to capture grom, but as interment camps had less humane treament than the forsakens did the humane thing would have being only to aim to kill Grom.

But grom part is still irelevant to the new horde vs alliance which started more war or instigated major battles.

Well thats still just a one orc not even the leader of the warsong outriders its same as saying 7th legion is genocidal when some of its memberd says they want to wipe out the entire horde.

They didn't accept like "yeah its yours" but they didn't demand thrall troops to leave ashenvale alone when they allied in wc3 against Archimonde nor did they during founding of durotar and the source you pointed out said only a night elf army is trying make them leave neither Tyrande nor Thrall is saying about it.

Forsaken had more humane treatment? Like force feeding prisoners with the blight?
You did say that the Alliance had no right to go after Grom since he wasnt an Alliance citizen.

Grom was captured by the time he was Thrall right hand man.

He was a captain not a random grunt, and yes its prob just common orc speech and nothing more. But still the fact is its the NE lands, and Thrall should have been well aware that the orc are not welcome since all the skrimishes that were happening, but there had to be a battleground so the story tooked the back seat.

[Rozz]

Tbh Idk why we allow the Forsaken to grow in number since Arthas died. They are a suffering people destined for extinction. It is more merciful to let their kind peacefully fade and to never make more of them. There is no morally justifiable reason to bring others into their situation. The only thing they are really good for is acting as meat shields for the living races and Sylvanas. Whatever useful alchemy they learned can simply be adopted by other witty races. Everyone would be happier if the blight was lost to time.

I don't think it's wrong to feel the Forsaken shouldn't be ruining or claiming resources from the living. They serve an immediate purpose, but Sylvanas' quest to have an immortal army is self serving and reasonably questionable.

[Terongor]

Forsaken had more humane treatment? Like force feeding prisoners with the blight?
You did say that the Alliance had no right to go after Grom since he wasnt an Alliance citizen.

Grom was captured by the time he was Thrall right hand man.

He was a captain not a random grunt. But still the fact is its the NE lands, and Thrall should have been well aware that the orc are not welcome since all the skrimishes that were happening, but there had to be a battleground so the story tooked the back seat.

Atleast the forsakens didn't force humans to kill the ones they loved in gladiatorial matches and made it thing anyone can have. Emotional and physical distress from it is much worse than blight experiments because some of them actually lived and had to remember what they did. Forcing feeding prisoners blight is easily comperable to kirin tors experiments on orcs. Plus all other "nice treament" blackmoore did to thrall and other prisoners.

I said they had no right imprison him, killing is a totally different thing.

Yeah he was captured by then but you can only blame him on the commands of the horde of draenor. Also on the intermenr camp front thrall offered to spare all the humans if they let the orcs go. Compared on alliance aggreaion orcs atleast show they can negotiate.

Captain is so low of a rank he doean't have say in overall strategy so his oppiniona matter as much as grunts.
NE didn't problems with while they were allied why would they have if they weren't at war.

[Benomatic]

Only for the purge of the undead.

[Arrashi]

I don't but baine sure as hell does.

[ausoin]

Atleast the forsakens didn't force humans to kill the ones they loved in gladiatorial matches and made it thing anyone can have. Emotional and physical distress from it is much worse than blight experiments because some of them actually lived and had to remember what they did. Forcing feeding prisoners blight is easily comperable to kirin tors experiments on orcs. Plus all other "nice treament" blackmoore did to thrall and other prisoners.

I said they had no right imprison him, killing is a totally different thing.

Yeah he was captured by then but you can only blame him on the commands of the horde of draenor. Also on the intermenr camp front thrall offered to spare all the humans if they let the orcs go. Compared on alliance aggreaion orcs atleast show they can negotiate.

Captain is so low of a rank he doean't have say in overall strategy so his oppiniona matter as much as grunts.
NE didn't problems with while they were allied why would they have if they weren't at war.

Both were cruel but to argue that the Forsken were MUCH more humane is just ignoring everything we know about the Forsken, is not just the blight but turning prisoners in ghouls and in the case of Brennadam, turning People to fish So they can die due to lack of air and laughing all the way, that is the very def of inhumane.

Why, why they had no right to imprison him, you know the Horde takes Alliance prisoners as well? Every factions does it.

He attacked the camps alongside Thrall.
Giving the soldiers a chance to surrender means nothing when talking in this context, Thrall attacked first.

They didnt have a problem? Thats just your headcanon,by attaking the Horde in vanilla its clear what they wanted.

[RangerDaz]

Only Forsaken and Goblins.

Forsaken are already dead, and Goblins, well, its feels just like when killing Gnomes ... and cockroaches *evil grin*

[Evilfish]

As long as it's not another douchebag ret pala jerkoff which is supposed to be for the greater good or some nonsense like that, implying that the upstanding Alliance is doing the world a favor. Evidently that won't happen cause the moment the Alliance does something mildly.. not good a wave of nelf and human ret tears hit the forums and they have to whitewash it later.

[Eggroll]

As long as it's not another douchebag ret pala jerkoff which is supposed to be for the greater good or some nonsense like that, implying that the upstanding Alliance is doing the world a favor. Evidently that won't happen cause the moment the Alliance does something mildly.. not good a wave of nelf and human ret tears hit the forums and they have to whitewash it later.

Wut nelf fans still seeking vengeance for Teldrassil. Kill all the Forsaken, death to the Horde! While we're at it, if Manduin is colateral damage, ... well how UNFORTUNATE ...

[Terongor]

Both were cruel but to argue that the Forsken were MUCH more humane is just ignoring everything we know about the Forsken, is not just the blight but turning prisoners in ghouls and in the case of Brennadam, turning People to fish So they can die due to lack of air and laughing all the way, that is the very def of inhumane.

Why, why they had no right to imprison him, you know the Horde takes Alliance prisoners as well? Every factions does it.

He attacked the camps alongside Thrall.
Giving the soldiers a chance to surrender means nothing when talking in this context, Thrall attacked first.

They didnt have a problem? Thats just your headcanon,by attaking the Horde in vanilla its clear what they wanted.

Yeah forsakens are commonly cruel, but murder is far less cruel than destroying individuals emotionally being forced to murder your loved ones for the entertaiment of human population is alot crueler as they are shouting and laughing at you when you fight. Also Blackmoore as individual is ALOT crueler than most forsakens and he was the head of the interment camps.

Taking prisoners is inhumane and in every sense of the word wrong as soldiers and other people always mistreat prisoners of war.

Well true, but then KT crashing their ships on darkspear territory and trying to wipe them out there needs to be counted aswell as we count to gilneas here.

If they didn't demand horde to leave then its from hordes PoV that they didn't have a problem and all that matters who attacked first as you said with the durnholde keep thing.

So if we take out the old horde as you said before they are irelevant here.

Horde 3 Alliance 7.

[ausoin]

Yeah forsakens are commonly cruel, but murder is far less cruel than destroying individuals emotionally being forced to murder your loved ones for the entertaiment of human population is alot crueler as they are shouting and laughing at you when you fight. Also Blackmoore as individual is ALOT crueler than most forsakens and he was the head of the interment camps.

Forsaken are laughing while torturing others as well, they are not just murdering them, they are torturing them.

Taking prisoners is inhumane and in every sense of the word wrong as soldiers and other people always mistreat prisoners of war.

Then the Horde is guilty of it as well, everybody is.

Well true, but then KT crashing their ships on darkspear territory and trying to wipe them out there needs to be counted aswell as we count to gilneas here

Count then the Warsong clan trying to wipe out the Humans in the Barrens in WC3.

If they didn't demand horde to leave then its from hordes PoV that they didn't have a problem and all that matters who attacked first as you said with the durnholde keep thing.

Again you dont have any source saying they didnt, they clearly didnt want the orcs there, and the orcs knew it and didnt care. Its wasnt their land, nothing ever indicated the NE allowed the orcs to remain.

So if we take out the old horde as you said before they are irelevant here.

Horde 3 Alliance 7.

There is so many attacks made by both its def not 10 in total, for the Horde what comes to mind are Hillsbrad and Arathi(and no, 10 lvl mage npcs are not the cause), Ashenvale, Blood war, Thrall revolt, Gilneas, Forsaken experiments on Alliance races like the dwarves.

[Terongor]

Forsaken are laughing while torturing others as well, they are not just murdering them, they are torturing them.



Then the Horde is guilty of it as well, everybody is.



Count then the Warsong clan trying to wipe out the Humans in the Barrens in WC3.



Again you dont have any source saying they didnt, they clearly didnt want the orcs there, and the orcs knew it and didnt care. Its wasnt their land, nothing ever indicated the NE allowed the orcs to remain.



There is so many attacks made by both its def not 10 in total, for the Horde what comes to mind are Hillsbrad and Arathi(and no, 10 lvl mage npcs are not the cause), Ashenvale, Blood war, Thrall revolt, Gilneas, Forsaken experiments on Alliance races like the dwarves.

So was blackmoore and he killed taretha and threw her lifeless head infront of thrall trying to brake him. Also tge human population laughing at orcs killing their own loved ones is extremely sick.

Yeah everyone is but we aren't here to talk about that.

Then we have to count both times when NE attacked warsong wood cutting and still even though its NE land they still attacked first both times which means they started it.

Well TFT NE didn't attack orcs who were gathering wood in ashenvale(rexxar) campaign. As they didn't demand warsong to leave before battle of mount hyjal it proves enough.

It can be interpited as same conflict as it happened in the same area in short span of time between same two major political powers. also they were 16-20.
Which ashenvale do you mean? I said blood war already, Thrall revolt we counted it already, Gilneas counted aswell, experiment can't be counted as warmongering...

I talked on MY original post which you commented on which side is bigger warmonger and only way to count it is to count which side started major war or major battle outside wartime. As most wotlk, cata till MoP Ally V Horde conflicted is counted on the war Varian declared in undercity so only attacking goblins, attacking Gilneas from that time can be interpited as warmongering.

[ausoin]

[So was blackmoore and he killed taretha and threw her lifeless head infront of thrall trying to brake him. Also tge human population laughing at orcs killing their own loved ones is extremely sick.

They were both cruel, but the Forsaken are not MUCH more humane as you claimed.

Yeah everyone is but we aren't here to talk about that.

Grom was captured as a prisoner of war, he prob would have been executed. I dont see the confusion. Torturing Pov is one thing but Southshore had every right to imprison him.

Then we have to count both times when NE attacked warsong wood cutting and still even though its NE land they still attacked first both times which means they started it.

Both times? The orcs may have had the excuse of not knowing it wasn't occupied, but still staying means they never gave a shit, to begin with. And not to mention they heard NE talking behind the woods, which Grom brushed off.

Well TFT NE didn't attack orcs who were gathering wood in ashenvale(rexxar) campaign. As they didn't demand warsong to leave before battle of mount hyjal it proves enough.

There was no mention of Ashenvale in the Rexxar campgain.

experiment can't be counted as warmongering...

noun
a person who encourages or advocates aggression towards other countries or groups.

I talked on MY original post which you commented on which side is bigger warmonger and only way to count it is to count which side started major war or major battle outside wartime. As most wotlk, cata till MoP Ally V Horde conflicted is counted on the war Varian declared in undercity so only attacking goblins, attacking Gilneas from that time can be interpited as warmongering.

Forsaken attacked Arathi and Hillsbrad outside wartime, the Horde continued chope down woods in the NE lands outside wartime as well.

[Terongor]

They were both cruel, but the Forsaken are not MUCH more humane as you claimed.



Grom was captured as a prisoner of war, he prob would have been executed. I dont see the confusion.



Both times? The orcs may have had the excuse of not knowing it wasn't occupied, but still staying means they never gave a shit, to begin with. And not to mention they heard NE talking behing the woords, which Grom burshed off.


There was no mention of Ashenvale in the Rexxar campgain.







I talked on MY original post which you commented on which side is bigger warmonger and only way to count it is to count which side started major war or major battle outside wartime. As most wotlk, cata till MoP Ally V Horde conflicted is counted on the war Varian declared in undercity so only attacking goblins, attacking Gilneas from that time can be interpited as warmongering.

Forsaken attacked Arathi and Hillsbrad outside wartime, the Horde continued chope woods in the NE lands outside wartime as well.[/QUOTE]

Yeah they were as we see some forsakens in the desolate council in before the storm and on novels we have seen many forsakens disaproof garroshes actions and show alot of decency, but when you compare that to what Blackmoore and all the other interment camps did under his command.

Its much more moral right to slay an honorable enemy in the field of battle rather than parade him and disgrace him before killing him.

Oh yeah sorry I keep mixxing up the wc3 and chronicles 3

Also battle over hillsbrad is hard to say when it actually happened as the only majot attack on it happened in cata which destroyed, but that is counted on war Varian declared.

Arathi forces which you are refering to were rebels they didn't own the kingdom nor land as they didn't bow down to Galen Trollbane who had left alliance but they stayed which is open rebellion and all rebels are outside of of laws protection. Still chopping the wood wasn't an act of aggression NE did the act of aggresion they should have sent messanger to Thrall on both times asking him to stop as Thrall did in Durnholde.

[FLANOFETT]

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Infracted.