America Wants Legal Immigrants

[Endus]

And this is why having any kind of discussion is a waste of time. It’s a moral argument for the left. Not one founded on any defined philosophy, but Daelak thinks it’s immoral to detain and remove people who are illegally present.

Moral philosophies are defined systems. It's an entire major branch of philosophy.

This is what the left in America represents. Emotional outrage with no basis in objective fact.

I want to point out this "no basis in objective fact" and get people to remember it for a moment.

And you guys still can’t figure out why Trump got elected. Between you and Endus, maybe you two can figure out all the world’s woes. Allow illiterate unskilled migrants to enter at will, demand an ever increasing minimum wage, and ignore automation.

1> Basically nobody is arguing to allow "illiterate unskilled migrants to enter at will". This is a lie you made up.

2> The only reason minimum wages are "ever increasing" is inflation. Which is, y'know, ever increasing. For minimum-wage employees to stay at the same cost-of-living, their minimum wage has to regularly increase, in line with inflation.

This is basic goddamned shit.

3> Nobody is "ignoring automation". In fact, a lot of our arguments, such as supporting a UBI, are precisely because of automation. So yet again, you're lying.

Then have the audacity to pretend you care about climate change.

Remember that whining about "no basis in objective fact"? Yeah, this is where you're not just a liar, but also a hypocrite, since not taking action against climate change is the position with "no basis in objective fact". Those of us who understand science (and particularly that it's rooted in objective fact) understand that climate change is a big deal, and that's why we work to manage it and foster adaptation and mitigation efforts.

[psiko74]

Instead of a wall or deportation we should cut off all government welfare to illegals and severely punish businesses that higher illegals. They will deport themselves.

[Endus]

Is your name Endus? Injecting yourself into a discussion where a fact was stated against that person and claim the fact doesn’t apply to you is what?

It's how forum discussions work.

This wasn't a private conversation between you and I. It's a group discussion. He's welcome to join in whenever he likes.

[Captain N]

Instead of a wall or deportation we should cut off all government welfare to illegals and severely punish businesses that higher illegals. They will deport themselves.

Kind of difficult to punish businesses that hire illegals when the man in charge of the Anti-Immigration Party has an entire town of illegal immigrants he chose to hire at his resorts.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.f1b25b2b829b

[Lynarii]

If you don’t remove people who illegally enter or make bogus asylum claims, you have an open border. While Trump’s coast to coast border is stupid, the notion a physical barrier isn’t a deterrent and aided in making illegal entry is disingenuous.

So yes, if you advocate not deporting the people who illegally enter or overstay their visa, and advocate against deporting those who don’t have valid asylum claims, you’re supporting an open border. I don’t know how you could logically argue otherwise.

Okay, I'm probably tilting at windmills here, but I'm going to try anyway.

The problem with deporting the people who overstay their visa is fourfold.

Problem one: It's expensive and difficult to hunt down all these people. You don't want to pay high taxes, which means that the money to actually do this is pretty restricted. If you want it to happen, you gotta pay for it with your own tax money.

Problem two: In practice, a number of innocent US citizens get caught up in the ICE system and either harassed or even deported. You're a US Citizen, if ICE showed up at your door, arrested you, and dropped you off in a random European country with a "Don't come back" sign taped to your ass you'd be absolutely fucking livid. And with good reason! This is something that the system should NEVER do.

Problem three: There's a massive economic cost involved in just wiping out things like the seasonal labor force. You can argue that it is a bad thing that the economy ever became dependent on this type of labor to begin with, and it IS a bad thing, but that's locking the barn door after the horse has already bolted. Right now, economically, the US needs to have a realistic and legal way to adequately serve it's labor needs in those industries.

Problem four: Just removing the people who are here actually invites new people to come to replace them as long as those job opportunities are still available. If you remove 1000 hard-working illegal immigrants, the people who come to replace them are going to have the general mix of some hardworking people and some criminals. You're bailing water without plugging the hole.

The system needs to be fixed first. We need a way to quickly and adequately process things like visas, asylum claims, and potential immigrants so that we can adequately serve the needs of the economy with legal workers first and foremost. The best way to do this is to start by rewriting the laws so that the entire process isn't such a dumpster fire. Then put money into the courts so that they can actually do the work of going through the huge amount of people that they need to deal with. Then, they should go through the illegal immigrants already here and give legal status of some sort to the ones that are actually doing the things that the US needs to have done. Someone who has been living and working here without committing crimes for 20+ years is way more likely to be someone you want to keep than the next random person stepping off a plane. Once the system is fixed and the people who are contributing to the country are taken care of, then by all means come down like a ton of bricks on the ones who are not. Because then you can actually do it properly.

[Polyxo]

Rather not have my recommended feed be flooded with "Ben Shapiro SKULL FUCKS libtards with LOGIC" type videos tyvm.

Did that happen to you? It happened to me

[Daelak]

And this is why having any kind of discussion is a waste of time. It’s a moral argument for the left. Not one founded on any defined philosophy, but Daelak thinks it’s immoral to detain and remove people who are illegally present.

This is what the left in America represents. Emotional outrage with no basis in objective fact. And you guys still can’t figure out why Trump got elected. Between you and Endus, maybe you two can figure out all the world’s woes. Allow illiterate unskilled migrants to enter at will, demand an ever increasing minimum wage, and ignore automation. Then have the audacity to pretend you care about climate change.

It's not just a moral issue, it's an economic, and a national security issue as well. The US, just like any other industrialized nation have birth levels that are below replacement rates and facing unprecedented worker shortages in large sectors of their respective economies. The only policy that will alleviate these concerns, and have been used in the past to do exactly that, in the short term is immigration. Full stop. Let our LEOs do what they are good at, like vetting entrants, and enforcing the law inside our country, no need to add an additional layer of bureaucracy and agency to round up families and productive citizens.

Instituting restrictive immigration measures will inevitably lead to the US having less leverage over both our trading partners and adversaries due to lower GDP growth rates caused by worker shortages and births below replacement rates.

[Edge-]

The overwhelming majority of these migrants don’t qualify for asylum. Because they use children, many not their own, they’re released into America and never show up for their hearing. Then 15 years later when ICE catches them, you cry that it’s inhumane. If they were properly detained and deported because we know immediately if they qualify for deportation, this wouldn’t be an issue.

Cool, so if they don't qualify then the courts will make that decision. I'm not sure how you know all of this ahead of time, maybe you should offer your services up to the government to help speed through asylum hearings because you apparently know all about these people before they even arrive at the border with their claims.

Or, this is pure assertion without any evidence to back it up. I don't care if you're at work and linking things on your phone is hard.

Democrats had congress for two years and did nothing for immigrants. Next year SCOTUS will overturn DACA, and we’ll have a whole new chorus of outrage.

Are you talking about the last failed attempt with the "gang of 8" that was blown up by the Freedom Caucus?

Their skin color has nothing to do with it. Only the left cares about skin color.

It's hilarious that you think this, because it's painfully wrong. Why do you think it's always brown immigrants that are demonized? I mean good lord, the White House put out an ad so racist that even the news channels wouldn't' run it/dropped it.

They’re lack of education, lack of skill, lack of English speaking ability, and lack of American ideals are why I abd the majority of Americans don’t want them coming here.

Man, I guess msot peoples ancestors shouldn't have come here then because they too were low skilled, lacked education, and lacked English and "American ideals" when they came over. I know my grandparents/great grandparents did when they came over, they were uneducated, spoke little to no English, didn't know the first thing about "American ideals" other than the stories they'd heard, and had no technical skills. But they still came over, managed to integrate while celebrating their heritage, have families, be successful and have kids who were successful.

But I guess that's impossible nowadays or something.

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1.) NY didn’t just cheer at the notion of infanticide. True or false, a woman could have an abortion at 40 weeks with a perfectly healthy fetus and no risk of physical injury to herself?

We’re not talking about allowing more room for a deformed fetus or one with no chance of survival. Does the law allow for the potential of infanticide in all but name? Doesn’t that warrant a discussion?

Are you talking about the Virginia law? Because I haven't actually bothered to look closely enough into that to figure out how much of the right wing hyperbole is true and how much is simply hyperbole.

But to the broader point, it's been an animating issue playing purely off emotions for Republicans for decades. They reject consensus from the scientific community and we continue to have repeated attempts to de-facto outlaw legal abortion via all kinds of hurdles to providers being allowed to operate and attempts to do things like give a fetus citizenship/personhood. All while ignoring scientific and medical reality.

2.) more Americans have been killed under the guise of jihad than white supremacy. ISIS and similar groups are actively planning attempts in the US. Fact.

Killed where? In the US? Because at least post-9/11 that's not true. Right wing terrorists remain a more serious threat to US citizens than Islamic terrorism. And thankfully, at least the FBI takes right wing terrorism somewhat seriously, even if Republicans refuse to acknowledge it.

3.) voter fraud happens. To what extent, no one can say because there’s no audit performed. But being opposed to any form of ID does not build confidence in the system. I know the Texas claims were quickly confirmed to be a gross exaggeration, but how many people vote that aren’t legally allowed to. Didn’t California just admit it erroneously registered people ineligible to vote. Seems weird to be against any kind of research or audit into the cornerstone of our system. Some might say people opposed to securing our elections, particularly after 2016, are anti-American.

We do know. We've had study after study repeatedly showing it to be a non-issue. What we have in response is bullshit like what's going on in TX where they've been frantically backpedaling from their sensational claims of 95K non-citizens registered and 58K illegal votes, especially as counties go back and tell them that large chunks of the lists provided are legal citizens registered to vote.

The issue is that there is no voter fraud issue despite repeatedly attempts by Republicans to gin up fears, and when you show them they give the same response you did, "we don't have enough information", which is interestingly enough the most recent way that climate change deniers have denied climate change.

It's part of the Republican efforts to suppress voter turnout that we've seen again and again over the decades, because the greatest threat to Republican power remains enfranchisement.

4.) I don’t know what this means. I know the term, but I have no idea what you’re trying to imply by it. Just a buzz word. I prefer trickle down to the new green deal.

"Cut taxes for companies and the rich and the economy will explode!" - i.e. the most recent tax cuts. I.e. the tax cuts under Bush Jr. I.e. the tax cuts in Kansas that were so bad that the Republican Legislature had to override a Republican governors veto to raise taxes back up.

But it's never framed as a "rational" or "logical" thing, it's given an emotional sales pitch by Republicans.

5.) yea, communism and socialism are pretty bad. To the point Denmark had to correct Sanders that they’re not in fact, a socialist nation. In fact, on this forum, On a thread 2 down, someone pointed out that only 3 European countries have ever had a “socialist” political party ever have any control over their nations. 3.

Except both are presented as constant imminent threats to the US on a purely emotional basis. There's no facts or reality behind the fearmongering, it's essentially just this lady -

[Belize]

2.) more Americans have been killed under the guise of jihad than white supremacy. ISIS and similar groups are actively planning attempts in the US. Fact.

The American Civil War would like to have a word with you.

620 000 Americans died, mostly because a group of chucklefucks couldn't bear the idea that non-whites were people too.

That death toll is almost as much as every other wars combined.
Fact.

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Did that happen to you? It happened to me

I just recently managed to get rid of PragerU ads at work (no adblock on work computer and use home google account).

[Endus]

The American Civil War would like to have a word with you.

620 000 Americans died, mostly because a group of chucklefucks couldn't bear the idea that non-whites were people too.

That death toll is almost as much as every other wars combined.
Fact.

Every time someone tries to claim that Islamic terrorism is the big threat, you'll notice they want to consider a time range that just barely includes the 9/11 attack.

If you extend it much further back into history, even that one attack fades away in the scale of other factors. If you look at post-9/11, Islamic terrorism isn't remotely a major threat. They need to cherry-pick their time frame VERY carefully to prop up that particular propaganda point.

[Belize]

Every time someone tries to claim that Islamic terrorism is the big threat, you'll notice they want to consider a time range that just barely includes the 9/11 attack.

If you extend it much further back into history, even that one attack fades away in the scale of other factors. If you look at post-9/11, Islamic terrorism isn't remotely a major threat. They need to cherry-pick their time frame VERY carefully to prop up that particular propaganda point.

I mean, even with that timeframe, their argument is looser than Trump's grasp on facts and reality, considering how prevalent gun violence is in the U.S.

How many murders are there unrelated to Islamic Terrorism per year? 15K~ ish?

Oh yeah, all those few dozen islamic terrorism deaths sonce 9/11 are really the problem facing America right now. Yup.

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How dare people limit the conversation to the modern period. We can go throughout all of human history if you like. But concerns about the Roman or Greek empires or Ghenghis Kahn would be a waste in my opinion. We can count the death tolls from socialism and communism if you’d like. Or the laws of segregation passed under Democratic leaders in the US. Or the abuse and indoctrination of native people in your own country. Even ignoring 9/11, the death count from Islam is still higher in the US than white supremacy.

Lol, conveniently ignoring my reply to jump straight to strawmanning the subject matter.

Sad!

[Blur4stuff]

I'm definitely to the left and like immigrants. I do not want open borders as republicans describe it. I've never personally known anyone that's had that position.

In the future? Sure. I'd rather we all just be Earthlings exploring the galaxy, but before we get to that point we need all countries unified and before we get that we'll probably have some kind of American Union. At some point I wouldn't be surprised if Canada/US/Mexico/others form a NA union and then join with the rest of the Americas.

But that's obviously not happening anytime soon. So sure, at that point in the future I want open borders if I'm even still alive.

[Belize]

I didn’t ignore your reply. I answered it in My reply to Endus. What does the actions of 200 years ago have to do with the modern debate? Are you concerned the confederacy will rise again?

In the 21st century, more Americans have been killed under the guise of Islam than from whites supremacist. Bringing up the civil war is irrelevant to the modern discussion. Everyone alive during that war has been dead for decades.

It’s just as disingenuous as citing 19th century immigration to a pre-industrial America as if it has any weight in a post- industrial America in the 21st. It’s a quick sound byte for people who haven’t done a lot of thinking on the subject.

What other archaic thinking that occurred before the invention of the telephone would you like to use?

I mean, if we're going to cherry pick the post 9/11 timeframe, then I'm sure we can both agree there has been more school shooting related deaths than Islamic Terrorism deaths in the same timeframe.

A lot of them also happened to espouse white supremacist views on the side.

And that's just the school shooters, you can tally up the ones that shoot up/burn mosques/synagogues/African American churches.

So I don't see how your cherrypicked timeframe helps your argument.

[PACOX]

Republicans want Democrats to want open borders.

[Adam Jensen]

You call others drones but you repeat this garbage. What party is about to cause another shutdown by suddenly limiting the amount of beds ICE can have for felons illegally in the country. Nothing to expedite their deportation or the deportations of the hundreds of thousands of economic migrants making asylum claims that won’t be granted.

Yes, the Democratic Party is essentially for open borders. How many of its candidates for President have called for abolishing ICE? Didn’t your party change its platform to no longer require citizen applicants speak English.

But please, continue to call others drones. Do it in a language every citizen doesn’t speak, because fuck desiring communication in a democratic society.

You’re why democrats lose elections. Now call me a racist or bigot like your programming requires.

Abolishing ICE isn't the same thing as open borders. ICE was formed under Bush, did we have open borders before then? Border Patrol will still exist.

The Democrat party is going to cause a shut down? Need I remind you this whole mess only happened because TRUMP refused to sign a bipartisan bill because Fox News goaded him?

[Adam Jensen]

The only one of us with malice is you, a non-American, pretending the Democratic platform is anyway not a platform of “open borders”.

Because it's not as binary as "support the wall or support open borders," except to complete idiots.

[Zaydin]

I'm definitely to the left and like immigrants. I do not want open borders as republicans describe it. I've never personally known anyone that's had that position.

In the future? Sure. I'd rather we all just be Earthlings exploring the galaxy, but before we get to that point we need all countries unified and before we get that we'll probably have some kind of American Union. At some point I wouldn't be surprised if Canada/US/Mexico/others form a NA union and then join with the rest of the Americas.

But that's obviously not happening anytime soon. So sure, at that point in the future I want open borders if I'm even still alive.

The whole 'libs want open borders!' claptrap is a strawmen the right wing made up because they don't understand nuance and can't argue actual points otherwise.

[Endus]

How dare people limit the conversation to the modern period.

That isn't what you're doing.

You're picking the one narrow window that can be misconstrued as supporting your point, absent the greater historical context in which it is set.

It is disinformation. It is meant to confuse and mislead, not inform and educate.

We can count the death tolls from socialism and communism if you’d like.

Derailing, because you know you can't make your case on the facts.

Or the laws of segregation passed under Democratic leaders in the US.

Ignoring that said leaders were conservative white supremacists, and the Democratic Party was the conservative party of that era.

Or the abuse and indoctrination of native people in your own country.

Again, derailing. But I'll note that Canada has, at least, recognized that as an atrocity and has tried to make amends.

Even ignoring 9/11, the death count from Islam is still higher in the US than white supremacy.

We have over 50 in Orlando alone. Charleston and Pittsburgh combined gets you to 30.

Only if you focus exclusively on terrorist attacks. White supremacists commit more terrorist attacks, but there are a handful of outlier attacks by Islamic terrorists that swing the total dead that direction.

Once you broaden this to hate crimes, however, the numbers start to look significantly different, and the white supremacist attacks are rising; https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46189391

So again; you're cherry-picking on a limited time scale and a specific framing, the only way the data can be misconstrued as seeming to support your case, ignoring the rest of the surrounding context.

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Stop replying to clowns, ffs.

Frankly, the reason the Republicans are run by clowns is because people stopped responding to clowns and people stopped seeing them as being clowns.

It's past time to start pointing and laughing, again.

[Edge-]

So you dismiss my post as derailing, then bring up “hate crimes”, an ambiguous term and not universally agreed, because it fits your narrative.

https://www.justice.gov/crt/hate-crime-laws
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/civi...ts/hate-crimes

Actually, there's a pretty clear legal definition for "hate crimes" on a federal level.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2016
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2015
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2014
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2013
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2012
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2011
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2010

You're welcome to review the data, but claiming that "hate crime" is an ambiguous term is disingenuous.

I’m not worried about radical Islam, white supremacy orveven gun violence for that matter.

Except you wrote this -

2.) more Americans have been killed under the guise of jihad than white supremacy. ISIS and similar groups are actively planning attempts in the US. Fact.

Which remains factually untrue unless, as Endus keeps pointing out, that you cherry pick one of the select few windows where a major Islamic terrorist attack would prove this statement true.

I am concerned when people like you celebrate that white oriole will be a minority in their country in 30 years, because of immigration that is tailored to bring in poor migrants from the third world.

What "immigration is tailored to bring in poor migrants from the third world"?

[Xeones]

DEBATE ME BRO

https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/...o_tenrules.jpg

lmfao

Let me guess it goes something like:

Never debate substance, only semantics.
Never face an argument head on deflect.
Never accept reality and only repeatedly state your ideal as though it was real.
Never accept defeat when pressed, only disappear for a few hours and then show up again saying the same things again.

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What "immigration is tailored to bring in poor migrants from the third world"?

You know that liberal conspiracy.