Warriors never bad but never good

[LiiLoSNK]

They've been god tier in pve and pvp since launch if you weren't really bad at the game/had a healer with you.

[Swalload]

As I've sat here for half an hour being declined by every m+ group even though I have more than enough experience, I find myself thinking about warriors. I've only played one since cata but in my personal view, and it might be very wrong, that warrs are never great. If memory serves me well, they're usually not bad, but have they ever been a class you actually want to see? We bring nothing of real value that other classes bring.

While I'm ranting about warrs, it also seems like other classes, those that always seem to be good, locks and rogues etc, are always allowed to stay at the top, and whenever warriors look like they might be worth considering, Blizzard descends on them because no fun is allowed.

Warriors have had some time to shine. Of course not permanently insanely broken like locks and rogues forever, but there are other classes that have it worse than warriors.

[Berndorf]

My main problem with warriors since MoP hasn't been the numbers so much as I think they became extremely boring to play after MoP. This is the first expansion since then that I've sort of been playing my warrior which I mained or co mained from tbc-MoP. They still don't really seem all that fun to me yet though. Decent but not as fun as other melee classes I play more.

[FelPlague]

As I've sat here for half an hour being declined by every m+ group even though I have more than enough experience, I find myself thinking about warriors. I've only played one since cata but in my personal view, and it might be very wrong, that warrs are never great. If memory serves me well, they're usually not bad, but have they ever been a class you actually want to see? We bring nothing of real value that other classes bring.

While I'm ranting about warrs, it also seems like other classes, those that always seem to be good, locks and rogues etc, are always allowed to stay at the top, and whenever warriors look like they might be worth considering, Blizzard descends on them because no fun is allowed.

like... every class that is not dps gets declined for a long period... dps are in an abundence, i think its your raider.io score, your prob 100 rating looking to join +10's and thats why no one is accepting you

[Boo Radley]

Warriors are good at the moment in everything except one respect, let me explain:

Currently my arms warrior is over 20% haste and 20% crit with their stupid mastery scaling making the number not even recognizable anymore. So the rage generation of white swings coupled with tactician procs and the slam azerite trait, turning slam from a filler into a hard hitting rage generator (because during that 2.5 second window between the last gcd starting and the slam one ending you will get a white swing, thereby making it a generator even if the move itself isnt) along with whatever other talent you have filling in. Bladestorm, warbreaker and the "strength per rage used after warbreaker" trait are all good. Basically warriors are doing solidly through the early stages of the fight, and arent really rage starved too often unless you really start blowing some filler abilities.

However, the one thing thats holding them back right now? Execute. My god is it weak. Most likely has one of the worst rage/damage returns and even if it doesnt, it eats up a ton of rage to not do damage worthy of calling it an "Execute." More like "annoying scratch." Traditionally warriors are the class to bring for execute phase heavy fights. That's one area of the "class fantasy" thats totally fucked up now, and all the warriors feel bad about it.

TL;DR- mechanically they're not awful, and properly geared they play very smoothly but the execute phase just doesnt feel right anymore.

[Aggrophobic]

As I've sat here for half an hour being declined by every m+ group even though I have more than enough experience, I find myself thinking about warriors. I've only played one since cata but in my personal view, and it might be very wrong, that warrs are never great. If memory serves me well, they're usually not bad, but have they ever been a class you actually want to see? We bring nothing of real value that other classes bring.

While I'm ranting about warrs, it also seems like other classes, those that always seem to be good, locks and rogues etc, are always allowed to stay at the top, and whenever warriors look like they might be worth considering, Blizzard descends on them because no fun is allowed.

Warriors were absolute crazy in parts of Legion. Both in M+ (some teams even used two arms warriors at times) and raids. Rogues have some silly utility that lets them stay very competative but there have been many cases were locks did not do as well as warriors.

It seems that people "feel" that their own class is weak compared to others. Grass is always greener and all that stuff but that does not mean it's actually true. Method used two warriors on their latest Jaina kill and Limit used just as many warriors as warlocks and so on.

Warriors are fine.

[meathead]

Dominant tank from classic through BC, wasn't really left behind until WoD since they don't know how to handle absorbs vs blocks vs self healing.

Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP (I don't really play arms so can't entirely say.)

Fury among the dominant melee DPS to Legion, constantly buggered by scaling issues that make it extremely good towards the end of an expansion.

I mean I get where you are going with this, but you're factually incorrect. Warriors as both tanks and DPS have remained competitive in each expansion and I'd say there's a very good chance that by the end of expansion Fury warriors at the very least will be pulling quite ahead in DPS as they approach a mix of 30% crit, 30% haste, 50% mastery.

"Dominant tank from classic through BC"
correct

Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP

false! arms was great in pvp for classic and TBC but when wrath came around it was total trash!season 5+ says hello. arms/warriors were so broken and bad that any warrior that did not reroll dk or pally swtich from arms to fury for pvp lol it was that bad. blizz did massive class/spec changes to warriors/arm during the x-pac something they claim they do not do unless its a must. they added things like juggernaut UA and a few other things just to bring arms in line with others but arms still needed to be baby sat, pallys and dks were much better then warriors in wrath.

warriors tanks were also left behind during wrath as both dks and pallys were better maybe even druids and as for pve dps it was bad for both arms and fury until buffs came in.

[Shelly]

"Dominant tank from classic through BC"
warriors tanks were also left behind during wrath as both dks and pallys were better maybe even druids and as for pve dps it was bad for both arms and fury until buffs came in.

Like I said, I don't often play arms.

You are flat out wrong though on the leaving behind of warrior tanks and the requirement of buffs.

Fury warriors had to be nerfed at Naxx - they did a 23 fury warriors, prot paladin and druid healer Sarth 3D. Each fury warrior had a Betrayer of Humanity - the first weapon to break 1K on upper end damage per swing.

They also went through multiple tunings of Titan's Grip, warriors still gained 1 attack power from agility which made the best armor in ICC for fury warriors the Ikfirus' sack of wonders since it had high armor penetration and crit and you could gem more armor penetration. (It was also the best in slot chest item for ret paladins.)

Oh and because of Armor Penetration for those doing TotGC physical dps were already starting to exceed 100% armor pen.

This isn't to say that divine storm span ret paladins weren't pulling ahead but frankly we all knew that ret paladins would be pushing high simply because of the expansion - not to mention auto-crits on exorcism.

[Softbottom]

all of the Cata good/mediocre comments forget how ridiculously good DS Arms was.

[Loosecannon]

We are definitely in a good place at the moment. Both tank and DPS warriors were used on world first Jaina, so we can't be too bad!

I remember being the only tank in TBC, in Wrath we were good but DK's were FOTM and come ICC the massive healthpool on Druid was great. Block just didn't scale all that well when boss melees hit you like a truck and it was impossible to cycle cooldowns like you can today. I think the first fight we couldn't really tank was Sarth 3d when doing it before the zerg tactic. We didn't have enough cooldowns to survive the buffed breaths.

I have mostly played prot and have thought for most of the time we have been 'acceptable', the only time I had difficulty getting groups as a tank because of my class was trying to run high M+ in legion- we just weren't as good as invincible DK's.

[Gouca]

Warriors were the only tanks and a great DPS in vanilla once geared

Jesus vanilla ended 12 years ago, it was a completely different game and there's no point comparing us to what we were back then. Wake up!

[Jastall]

Jesus vanilla ended 12 years ago, it was a completely different game and there's no point comparing us to what we were back then. Wake up!

...which is why my post continued until Legion, taking up an entire paragraph?

Seriously, did you just read that line, dropped everything and posted in a failed attempt at a gotcha moment?

[dacoolist]

like... every class that is not dps gets declined for a long period... dps are in an abundence, i think its your raider.io score, your prob 100 rating looking to join +10's and thats why no one is accepting you

I never agree with FelPlague because he argues with me on twitter too much - but DAMN I couldn't agree MORE TODAY FAM

[RobertoCarlos]

never seemed like warriors recovered from the ignore pain nerfs.

Compare them to blood dk/ guardian druid past few expansions they are generally trash

[FelPlague]

I never agree with FelPlague because he argues with me on twitter too much - but DAMN I couldn't agree MORE TODAY FAM

Ohh your that guy from twitter.

but yeah, i am 396 with a few 10s and 90's under my belt in both seasons.
spent 5 hours looking couldnt join a single 10, just gave up an started doing some dungeons i had yet to do to get my score up, then next day set up a group with my guild.

[Deciticus]

As I've sat here for half an hour being declined by every m+ group even though I have more than enough experience, I find myself thinking about warriors. I've only played one since cata but in my personal view, and it might be very wrong, that warrs are never great. If memory serves me well, they're usually not bad, but have they ever been a class you actually want to see? We bring nothing of real value that other classes bring.

While I'm ranting about warrs, it also seems like other classes, those that always seem to be good, locks and rogues etc, are always allowed to stay at the top, and whenever warriors look like they might be worth considering, Blizzard descends on them because no fun is allowed.

Warriors were great in most of MoP, prot was good in WoD, arms was amazing in HFC, Prot and arms were amazing in EN, Arms and fury were great in ToV, Fury was great and arms was good in NH, arms was busted as fuck in ToS, fury and prot were great and arms was good in Antorus, arms was busted as fuck in Uldir and fury was good.

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Warriors have had some time to shine. Of course not permanently insanely broken like locks and rogues forever, but there are other classes that have it worse than warriors.

Well aside from HFC-Uldir, but sure.

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Dominant tank from classic through BC, wasn't really left behind until WoD since they don't know how to handle absorbs vs blocks vs self healing.

Dominant PvP DPS in Arms through LK and strong for PvE through MoP (I don't really play arms so can't entirely say.)

Fury among the dominant melee DPS to Legion, constantly buggered by scaling issues that make it extremely good towards the end of an expansion.

I mean I get where you are going with this, but you're factually incorrect. Warriors as both tanks and DPS have remained competitive in each expansion and I'd say there's a very good chance that by the end of expansion Fury warriors at the very least will be pulling quite ahead in DPS as they approach a mix of 30% crit, 30% haste, 50% mastery.

Fury hasn't scaled any different than arms since MoP. Learn your shit.

And these arbitrary stat numbers mean nothing. Don't spread misinformation and bullshit.

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Sorry OP. You missed warriors golden years in vanilla thru Cata. Best tank, Gods in DPS, and gods in PVP. Our scaling was just insane. I miss the days of rage not being normalized along with heroic strike. WotLK was the last time I felt like a juggernaut on my warrior.

Anyways I’m just messing with ya since you didn’t get to experience the class pre Cata. It was great times though. As for being good or not now I can’t say as I’m no longer subbed but generally speaking when the end of the expansion is here that’s when you’ll see warriors start shining more.

Warriors haven't scaled well since ~MoP. Turns out not playing means you have no fucking idea how the specs actually work anymore.

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If the title was "Arms warrior never bad, but never good" then you'd have a legit thread.

In vanilla, warriors used to have this talent called sword spec, well they could specialize in any type of 2h, but sword spec was the one that procced an extra swing. So they would roll with a pocket resto shammy (I was one of the shammies) and the shammy would just follow them around dropping windfury. Windfury would stack with sword spec then they'd get the Hand of Justice trinket out of BRD which procced ANOTHER swing and you can imagine what ensued.

They gutted windfury and sword spec. Then they introduced Stormherald. Stormherald would proc like a 3 second stun but they didn't gut mace specialization, which stacked with the stun. So all through TBC warriors dominated again. Then they introduced Bladestorm and beastcleave came.

Today's warrior is a result of warriors being tuned out of control in the early days, like people have posted.

Arms was a meta, top 1-4 spec in HFC, EN, ToV, ToS, and Uldir. So you're full of shit.

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Locks have been utter trash in a good portion of raid tiers, and rarely were topping meters. They are definitely not "one of the classes that are not allowed to not be good".

Warriors have been absolute gods of melee at least from Vanilla through Cata. Usually not in the first or the second tier of the xpac, but their scaling was just way better than that of other classes. They have been completely dominating both PvE and PvP in the last (and possibly previous last) tiers for 10 years straight. I don't know about their current standings (they have barely been middle of the pack in WoD, when I last played the game), but they are by no means a "never good" class.

Locks have been a meta class, anywhere from 2 to all three of their specs, since Throne of Thunder. Every. Single. Raid.

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In all honesty warriors are pretty damn bad atm. Anything that counted before Legion was pvp and raids, now we've got M+ as well which is pretty damn important.

Warriors are never allowed to be overpowered even in the slightest. Especially not to the extents of Arcane mages at the end of WoD for example.

So when was the last time anyone has see more than 2 warriors in a M raid comp? It's pretty damn rare to see 1 warr and on the top level 1 is the maximum. It's a walking buff, nothing else. There are much better alternatives. Raid-wise fury is at the level of importance of a DH. 1 per raid and anything more is a waste of a spot.

In M+ the story is much different. DPS warriors are useless. There's literally no reason to bring warr over DH/rogue/RDPS. NONE. And queing takes ages compared to classes like boomkins/mages/shamans/DHs/rogues.

And in pvp warriors are mediocre at best and pretty much the amount of comps availabe for them in 3v3 is 1.

Arcane wasn't broken, it was broken+1. Arms has certainly been broken, as has prot and even fury.

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Don't know, from my standpoint Warriors tend to end on a stronger side of things, especially closer to end of expansion with scaling.

If I'd bring a genuine never bad never good class, it would probably be hunters. These guys are the mediocrity incarnate in my view.

Warriors. Do not. Scale any better. Than any other class. You stuck-in-Wrath-fuck.

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never seemed like warriors recovered from the ignore pain nerfs.

Compare them to blood dk/ guardian druid past few expansions they are generally trash

Prot was the best tank in EN, and top 3 in Antorus, and is currently best/second best tank depending on the content. Druid is the worst tank for all content right now.

[Th3Scourge]

Pfftttt Warriors in Vanilla, BC, LK were OP. Always the most gear dependent but scaled the best

[Craaazyyy]

warriors were op in vanilla.. all specs were good and obviously prot was the only tank

in tbc warriors were again amazing, the best tanks still for the most part and arms was op in pvp for the majority of TBC

in wrath warriors were still good tanks, but obviously werent the outright the best anymore, in pvp they were really good and were really good as dps in all specs in pve

in cata warriors were insane at the beginning in both pve and pvp then they got nerfed and were mediocre in pvp, but really good in pve especially arms in DS

in MoP warriors were really throughout entire expansion in PvP(and were broken at the start) and were rather fine in pve

in WoD warriors were really good in pvp throughout expansion and were good in pve

so i dont know what you talking about, mate

[msdos]

Arms was a meta, top 1-4 spec in HFC, EN, ToV, ToS, and Uldir. So you're full of shit.

Isn't that all Legion and BFA? So that literally has nothing to do with my post, since I was talking about expansions before Cata. Hm. Learn to read issue maybe.

Also, top 1-4? That's ambiguous and not #1. So no, not full of shit whatsoever. Everything else I said is literally a fact. Also, Arms was abusing Drought of Souls, but yeah, sure, top spec lol. Good in Uldir, complete trash in Dazar, hmm, something not right with that picture, so yeah that's really obviously reaching and grasping at straws there bud.

I shouldn't even be responding to someone who fishes and quotes the entire thread for posts to disagree with and cusses people out for no reason, it never ends well!

[Deciticus]

Isn't that all Legion and BFA? So that literally has nothing to do with my post, since I was talking about expansions before Cata. Hm. Learn to read issue maybe.

Also, top 1-4? That's ambiguous and not #1. So no, not full of shit whatsoever. Everything else I said is literally a fact. Also, Arms was abusing Drought of Souls, but yeah, sure, top spec lol. Good in Uldir, complete trash in Dazar, hmm, something not right with that picture, so yeah that's really obviously reaching and grasping at straws there bud.

I shouldn't even be responding to someone who fishes and quotes the entire thread for posts to disagree with and cusses people out for no reason, it never ends well!

Your post never made direct indication to a specific timeframe at all. You made references to overpowered, poorly designed, or broken abilities arms had in the early stages of the game, and then tried to state that said "tuned out of control" periods are the cause for arms being bad now. Or rather, you said warriors in general, but it was pointedly towards arms.

Not only does that logic not even begin to follow, it doesn't have anything at all to do with design or balancing. Arms has clearly proven in the past half a decade that when tuning allows, it can be a top tier spec. There's no "Arms warrior never bad, but never good" bullshit. Because arms has been bad in the past. It's been even worse than it is right now.

DoS? That was in one raid. And then it got a 40% nerf. And arms was top tier meta in the raids before, and the raid immediately after. Had literally nothing to do with the trinket.

It's not ambiguous at all. It depends on the exact percentile you look at, and the boss in the raid. An overall perspective can be skewed by one boss with excessive bullshit, so taking it at face value is not the best idea. If you look across all bosses, and a spec is consistently in the top 5 or so slots, across several percentiles (90, 95, 99) then it's obviously just straight up extremely strong in that raid.