Why do the people that enjoyed Legion not enjoy BfA?

[Hranica]

Legion gave me things to do on every single character and a reason to play every single spec, I got all the class mounts/balance of powers/random hidden skins and 36 mage towers done as a mostly solo player I would have done a lot more of the pvp dailies/honor farming if the honor system works how it does now.

Hit BFA level cap and did absolutely nothing, I don't care about ilvl now, I cared enough when Mage towers were a thing to gear up every single spec to get them all before those concordance buffs came in (tbh I would have played less and come back later if i knew how easy it would be the last month)

All the class mounts were enjoyable to get in between all the bullshit, I'm not even against time gating its just very boring when your quest for the day/week was like go kill 50 demons or do 12 world quests

Also the transmog system was blown wide open in Legion but just by how the system works I kinda got 90% of the tiers on most classes fairly quick and filling in all the spots I'm missing doesn't sound appealing

Leveling to 120 is insanely boring to me, I love leveling in WoW its my favorite part of MMO's especially since I gave up on raiding in MoP but 3 zones is so fucking mind numbing on my second character of the expansion I was logging off every single time I walked past an Inn while leveling in tiragarde sound, it feels so pointless, I don't care about anything at 120

Even outside of 110-120 leveling characters from scratch is so boring I've gone back just to level in previous expansion servers because leveling from 1 now is literally every single mob has exactly the same health, exactly the same damage, you'll never be interrupted or feared or stunned, the mobs will never heal or bubble everything will just auto attack you for 2% of your health and fall over

[MoanaLisa]

There was a long period of time where there was literally NOTHING to do in WoD but play the facebook tables for gold. At the very least BFA has world quests, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, Mythic+ dungeons.

Granted it's not very engaging content. But it's better than the fuck all that WoD gave us.

I believe you are expressing one of the main intents of the current WoW general design: Casual players need something to do. It's what the expansions since WoD have been all about and was a very direct result of what you said about nothing to do in Warlords.

[derpkitteh]

they slowed gameplay down to a crawl.

the story is shit.

my only two complaints really. azerite's fucking lame, but they're fixing that in 8.2 by having all the traits automatically unlocked.

[trapmaster]

Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems
It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems
It has the same PvP gearing system
It has the same PvP rank system
It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
1. Azerite Armor system
2. Island Expeditions
3. War mode
4. Warfront

Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?

Uh uh, No tiers set anymore (cuz ppl boohoo of balance unfair crap and blizzard doesn't want this hassle. Coming from billionaire dollars ass company that's lazy right there)

No legendaries (It's gone good riddance)


Back to square one looting your own weapon high ilvl bs. (Why are we going backward and not going forward?)

Copy and paste mythic+ crap system and slap them from diablo 3 idea of affixes crap (YAY RIFTS SPAMS AND TIMED WORLD FIRST RUN OMG OMG AND OHH FREE HIGH ILVL GEARS LIKE CANDIES) Seriously? Is this a job or something to be the best? Lol okay

GCD spells are crap (shouldn't touch it and fuck it over but yah we adapt and seriously playstyle gone shitter... I don't understand how people are pretending to enjoy this. It's like We are going roller coaster ride in six flags, disneylands, other bs, till we finally arrive to retirement senior place where etc is blands and lame isloated)

Azerite stuff isn't BIG WOWZERS!.. Oh wait AP grind .... AGAIN? fuck that

Story got shitter and gameplay style is i don't even know what the fuck is this game anymore.

What would be nice if they brought back challenge mode with wicked tmog, 50/50 attempts idea in mythic or something like that to get unique mount, Mage towers were excellent and i hope they bring it back.

Game already watered down.



You should know this xpac always tends go in cycle like Good>Bad>good>bad>good>bad. You know how company's becoming greedier each day. I'll say this... Wow is killing themselves slowly and the final strike of nail into a coffin would bound to happen anytime in the future. Be glad we have good and bad tastes of experience. There's always another game.

[Nelaphim-EX]

It has the same mythic+ systems - They took the least liked parts of M+ (Tyrannical/Fortified) and made them baseline.

It has the same raiding systems - First raid tier sucked. Hard. BfD is fun, though.

It has the same looting systems - Wrong. The weekly cache/Azerite debacle from the start left a sour taste in many mouths, not to mention personal loot being forced. The Azerite vendor is a band-aid that should have been in from the start.

It has the same PvP rank system - Wrong again. They severely nerfed how much Honor is gained daily (No Tower WQs) and made several hundred levels out of nothing. Rewards are incredibly spaced out.

It has the same world quest system - This one is correct.

It has the same titanforging system - Very few people like this system and it is one of the worst in the game. Give us an upgrade system with tokens/points earned doing content instead.

[Alopex Major]

Yeah I don't understand it either. Legion had the same terrible class design, shitty writing, RNG and busywork. I didn't buy BFA because it looked like Legion, which I hated enough to quit for the first time in 13 years.

[GMZohar1]

Weapons were shit cause their was no choice in skills, Blizzard tried fixing that by bringing in Azerite Traits. But brought them in an impossible RNG bullshit form so you spend 3/4 of the expansion trying to match the traits you want

[Darkguyver2020]

I believe you are expressing one of the main intents of the current WoW general design: Casual players need something to do. It's what the expansions since WoD have been all about and was a very direct result of what you said about nothing to do in Warlords.

I am well aware of this. The point that I am trying to make here is that anyone who says WoD was a better expansion than BFA is undeniably, indisputably, unquestionably, irrefutably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, completely 100% WRONG!!!

[Alkizon]

am i misremembering or wasnt legion also considered bad until late in the xpac?

Not quite like that, because those who said that Legion is bad - continue to do it, and topic is just about those who liked it. You should read more attentive

ps. And if also we take into account that many of those, who criticized it, left the game...

[Marrilaife]

Oh yes....design which only caters to part of the playerbase and ignores the rest,

Different people play this game for different reasons. I bet pvpers remember the fondest the times when they feel pvp was the best, disregarding other parts of the game, because they don't care about it. Same for every other segment of the playerbase.

As I said, I agree the game should provide content to every type of player, however I disagree with the Blizzard's idea of trying to push people into content they don't enjoy just for the sake of participation. Like in BFA trying to shove warmode down people's throats, and if they don't like world pvp, too bad, we'll keep upping the rewards until they can no longer ignore it and are forced to participate.

Just because I'm weary of seeing people use MAU without understanding it: MAU stands for Monthly Active Users. There's no particular padding to it. You log in once for a few minutes in a calendar month and you are counted as part of the MAU. You are still only one user if you play every day for six hours a day. There is another measure for that but it isn't MAU.

It's related to DAU (Daily Active User) which measures how many people log onto something every day. But even then, if you only spend 10 minutes or less, you're still a DAU. There's no extra credit for spending hours and hours doing the same WQ or whatever it is you're doing.

Unfortunately, the game design doesn't support this idea. I wish that was the case - I pay monthly sub, even if I log 1h per month only, Blizzard still gets my sub, so all is cool, right?

Well, nope, what's the idea then with doing away with weekly caps, reps ending at exalted, gear reaching BIS status (before another patch or expansion introduces new gear), and all the other concepts that were discarded in favour of log in every day, every week, every month, and grind wqs for endless reps and other content for endless ap? And gear titanforging so people are lured in to do more content because maybe something titanforges into an upgrade?

Most expansions from wotlk to wod I had extra "homework" early in the expansion with levelling, dailies, reps, professions etc. but once I did that, guess what, I logged only for raids and maybe to cap badges / valor. Even if I "logged only for raids" that was usually 9-12h per week depending on guild I was currently in. Plenty enough to justify my sub and to say my hobby was within boundaries of moderately time consuming - not too little to feel insignificant, not too much to feel like a second job.

And then since Legion they started putting this "raider tax" - you wanna have fun for your 12h per week, you have to pay your dues and suffer through awful content for several hours every day. I haven't played vanilla but that resembles the stories about vanilla and horrible grinds for resist gear and consumables, basically you wanna have fun, suffer first.

I don't understand this 180 turn and why is player progression tied to chores like world quests and islands. I wouldn't mind if islands were just for the cosmetics... well if obtaining these cosmetics wasn't such horrible rng I might even feel compelled to try to obtain them (I tried at start of bfa, didn't get anything I wanted, gave up).

I enjoy mythic raiding, and to some extent mythic+. Paying monthly sub is well justified to gain access to that content. I do not enjoy pvp, world pvp, world quests, lfr, islands, warfronts etc. I don't mind these existing for people who do enjoy them, but for the love of god, why do I have to do world quests just to stay viable for raids and m+ due to ap system. World quests could exist as a source of decent gold (it's too low now), profession mats (things like bloods in legion + mats vendor), gear for casuals (it's a bit disappointing now, you get azerite from wq and it only has 2 traits?), reputation, etc.

But it's obvious to me that after wod Blizzard decided players aren't allowed anymore to cherry pick content they like and just play that and have fun, nope, there should be participation metrics for every content, and if these fall too low, tweak game design to up these participation rates. Warmode and paragon caches are two obvious examples.

And tbh I wouldn't be surprised if pvpers feel similar to raiders, not exactly amused to grind wqs to unlock traits on their pvp gear. In the past you pvped, you got conquest or other currency, you bought pvp gear that helped you to be stronger in pvp, and you were set. Similar with raiding - you raided to get gear that made you stronger in raiding. You needed some consumables, but there were several avenues to make gold to buy them (or you could craft them yourself, or you could have a network of guildies covering different professions and exchange stuff around). In some of the past expansions we also had alternative means of earning reps like tabards in dungeons or tradable items turn-ins.

What happened so the game design took a turn into pigeon holing everyone into world quests? If it's not for padding metrics for shareholder reports, then what is it for?

Oh, btw, remember that outcry in MOP about "endless dailies"? Guess what, by the time 5.2 hit, maybe even 5.1, Golden Lotus was a thing of the past. But in Legion and now in BFA we're doing the same world quests for the same factions for the remainder of the expansion. They just don't obsolete giving you a break. While in comparison raids exchange every 5 months or so, you don't keep sitting in the same instance for 2 years straight (that's why I prefer it to tbc model where majority were stuck between Karazhan and Gruul and very few went past that).

And last, I emphasize, I'm not asking for the game to be "raid or die" and have no content outside of raids. All is ask is that content exist for its own sake not just as "mandatory enabler" for other content.

[darklogrus]

I don't know if that's true. What you are describing is called sessions: any time any user (not a unique user) opens an app. So if you play WoW twice, Hearthstone once and run a Diablo rift that's one MAU with four sessions. MAU would be calculated using your battle.net account, i.e. how many accounts are active every day logging into something.

Read the article I linked. It's really informative and describes most of the metrics that investors use to compare companies like ATVI and EA against one another. If we really are going to discuss what investors and the stock market want out of Blizzard Entertainment and ATVI generally that's the stuff to know in addition to revenue.

"Monthly Active User (“MAU”) Definition: We monitor MAUs as a key measure of the overall size of our user base. MAUs are the number of individuals who accessed a particular game in a given month. We calculate average MAUs in a period by adding the total number of MAUs in each of the months in a given period and dividing that total by the number of months in the period. An individual who accesses two of our games would be counted as two users. In addition, due to technical limitations, for Activision and King, an individual who accesses the same game on two platforms or devices in the relevant period would be counted as two users. For Blizzard, an individual who accesses the same game on two platforms or devices in the relevant period would generally be counted as a single user. "

Pretty much from the company itself in how it see's MAU. So basically Im not 1 user acct, im 7 users even though im not allowed to share and would be banned. But hey, whatever gets them out of the noose come earnings call lol...

[SirCowdog]

I don't know what kind of mentally impaired morons you like to hang out with. But no one in their right mind has or ever will say that WoD was a great expansion.

Except the shills, the addicts, and the people who only raid.

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Different people play this game for different reasons. I bet pvpers remember the fondest the times when they feel pvp was the best, disregarding other parts of the game, because they don't care about it. Same for every other segment of the playerbase.

As I said, I agree the game should provide content to every type of player, however I disagree with the Blizzard's idea of trying to push people into content they don't enjoy just for the sake of participation. .

And as I said: "ignoring part of the playerbase". Simply increasing the rewards for a part of the game until you can't ignorw it isn't a replacement or a mitigation of a lack of design or dev attention in other areas.

The selfie patch, garrison, and copy/paste apexis dailies were not a replacement for actual quality open world content.

People who say WoD was good either never looked beyond raiding and their abuse of garrison gold generation, are lying, or never actually looked closely and critically in the first place.

I think we're mostly in agreement.

[Kokolums]

One of the amusing things is that its pretty much universally agreed that the art is good. So of course Blizzard CUTS the art by having less sets in raid art. Now its one set per armor class instead of character class. Here is something clearly working, let's get rid of it!

[Yoshimiko]

I am well aware of this. The point that I am trying to make here is that anyone who says WoD was a better expansion than BFA is undeniably, indisputably, unquestionably, irrefutably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, completely 100% WRONG!!!

I think BfA is the worst expansion they've ever released.

BfA has drove all of my friends and family to quit. For me, personally: I don't enjoy island expeditions; I dislike all of the mythic dungeons; The first tier if raiding wasn't very good, in my opinion; classes feel very bad in general due to the pruning, loss of power, loss of legendaries, loss of arti weapon's points and adding abilities back on the GCD; removal of loot options; inability to trade ilvl upgrades; the horrible change to PVP awards; adding back in twinks to all levels of BGs(as a twink, this kills the fun - when leveling with friends, this becomes a frustrating experience of getting 1-shot when queueing between 39 and 59); and most of all the world quest system returning with a vengeance.

I did not enjoy any part of my experience with playing BfA. After a week I was barely logging on - after 2 months I just stopped entirely. BfA isn't fun, to me.

I take that back, there was one thing I liked about BfA: Basamdi and the story involving him.

[Felixon]

Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
It has the same dungeon systems
It has the same mythic+ systems
It has the same raiding systems
It has the same looting systems
It has the same PvP gearing system
It has the same PvP rank system
It has the same world quest system
It has the same titanforging system

It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
1. Azerite Armor system
2. Island Expeditions
3. War mode
4. Warfront

Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?

The story,the unique class hall campaigns,artifact weapons, mage tower challenge, tier sets with unique appearance for each class. Yes,I prefered grinding artifact power for an artifact weapon with unique story behind and appearance,than some pathetic necklace.

[Super Kami Dende]

I enjoyed/enjoy both. So idk man.

[MoanaLisa]

"Monthly Active User (“MAU”) Definition: We monitor MAUs as a key measure of the overall size of our user base. MAUs are the number of individuals who accessed a particular game in a given month. We calculate average MAUs in a period by adding the total number of MAUs in each of the months in a given period and dividing that total by the number of months in the period. An individual who accesses two of our games would be counted as two users. In addition, due to technical limitations, for Activision and King, an individual who accesses the same game on two platforms or devices in the relevant period would be counted as two users. For Blizzard, an individual who accesses the same game on two platforms or devices in the relevant period would generally be counted as a single user. "

Pretty much from the company itself in how it see's MAU. So basically Im not 1 user acct, im 7 users even though im not allowed to share and would be banned. But hey, whatever gets them out of the noose come earnings call lol...

Thanks for the clarification. I suppose if they state that up front then that's one thing. Apologies to all I questioned. You learn something new every day. Should have looked it up. That last suggests that Blizzard games could be unified as one MAU if they wanted to. I don't suppose that it's surprising that if I play COD and WoW that would count as two since one is Blizzard, the other Activision. King the same. They don't have any way of unifying their MAU numbers across their major sectors. I suppose someday we'll need to look out for some sort of Activision account. Terrible but that's the only way they could do it if they wanted to. I can't imagine that anyone here would be up for that.

[FelPlague]

I don't know what kind of mentally impaired morons you like to hang out with. But no one in their right mind has or ever will say that WoD was a great expansion.

Ask greyscale I literally showed you guys a picture of them saying they really liked WoD.

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FelPlaque is misunderstanding what a comparison is.. Many people say they'd rather play a shit expansion like WoD instead of the current expansion.

Wanting to play WoD more than BfA doesn't mean WoD is good.. it just means BfA is shit

Ask greyscale, I showed a picture of him saying her really liked WoD. Also there is lots of people who say WoD is better then legion and BFA... Which I mean really?

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I won't deny that BFA has a plethora of issues and is a significant step down from Legion. But people are flat out wrong when they say that WoD is better than BFA. Or has everyone conveniently forgotten the infamous "Selfie Patch"?

There was a long period of time where there was literally NOTHING to do in WoD but play the facebook tables for gold. At the very least BFA has world quests, Island Expeditions, Warfronts, Mythic+ dungeons.
Granted it's not very engaging content. But it's better than the fuck all that WoD gave us.

And yeah I literally linked a ton of people who say WoD is better then BFA. Or BFA and legion. And there is many more. Those are just what I could find right away.

[Harry Botter]

For me it's a combination of burnout (that's the main reason) after 14+ years and me not really liking the faction war stuff. Once Azshara and the Old Gods come into the story more that might get me to play more.

[FelPlague]

One of the amusing things is that its pretty much universally agreed that the art is good. So of course Blizzard CUTS the art by having less sets in raid art. Now its one set per armor class instead of character class. Here is something clearly working, let's get rid of it!

Actually they are not making less sets.
We got 2 sets per class from a raid. Lfr/Normal/heroic and mythic.
Then for raiding that set got recoloured.

That means with 12 classes. 24 sets.

Now we have 2 per armor type. Meaning 4 armor types 8. Now wait a minute that is less... Until, you consider the PvP sets. PvP sets have 3 sets per armor type, meaning another 4x3 to 12 bringing us to the total of 20 sets.

So 20 instead of 24, with abit less variation. But here is the thing, blizzard was not lying. Coming up with "warlock but like this." For the 22nd (or like 50th) time now is just exhausting, let's give the team a break, let them just explore with basing them off the raids, and PvP season.

Cause for example "mage but in a fel place" as they said is quite difficult, because how do you make a mage demonic... Without it then just becoming a warlock? Notice that all the fel based raids mages just had... Random stuff that had nothing to do with fel really?
How do you come up with "hunter but demonic" for like the what... 7th time?
Yes it was cool to have these class sets, but its nice to have a short break, and hopefully this will give some inspiration to the artists, to get back to normal armor sets.