Are you guys forgetting the Annual Pass?

[MrKnubbles]

Are you sure the Annual Pass was created because Cataclysm was so bad? I'm pretty sure it was to make sure players didn't quit Warcraft to play Diablo.

[CynicalPenguin]

If WoW is dead, why is Blizzard still making a shit ton of money from it?

Except they are not. Blizzard Activision is literally firing HUNDREDS of employees as we speak.

[Wildberry]

Some people do, as some will for BFA.
Not saying it's a case study to dismiss any proposed criticism, but doesn't change the fact that it's the rhetoric that's echoed across every expansion.

And just because you hear it from different people every expansion doesn't mean it can always be brushed off. This would be a good case of that.

Personally I feel like I will have fond memories, really enjoying M+ seasons and this raid tier is really solid in my opinion. Even dabbled in PVP which I haven't really done in idk how long, I think my arena achieves are from Cata, so I guess then.

Well I'm glad you're enjoying PvP then. Unfortunately, this is the third expansion in a row where the meta has largely been uninteresting and dull. Gimped classes with bare toolkits aren't really conducive to enjoyable arenas.

[CynicalPenguin]

Yeah apparently WoW's been dying for over a decade.

But more importantly do you think they'll give away Diablo Immortal for free if we sub for a year? Hopefully with some phones so we can play it.

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Ohh we are doing these? I love doing these!

Wrath >= BC > BfA >= Classic > MoP > Cata > WoD

Legion doesn't deserve a mention. The singular redeeming quality was Suramar being pretty, nothing else was good about that expansion.

Don't @ me.

Diablo Immortal is probably going to be free from the start(abeit with tons of obvious microtransacts because activision)

[Wildberry]

A) You do it on a different character because you have to earn that allied factions trust. It's called storytelling. THat is in no way = bad system

Yeah, the problem is I didn't have to earn the trust of the Blood Elves, or Bilgewater Cartel. Hell, the Pandaren just blew into Orgrimmar one day without much prompting.

Storytelling isn't a justification for bad mechanics, especially when the storytelling, in most cases, is subpar. In what world did my actions with the Argussian Reach earn the trust of certain magisters in Quel'thalas that had yet to be exiled?

B) By this stupid logic, expansions should never give new features because you have to give Blizzard money to get them and therefore they are bad in your opinion.

That's actually not the premise of my statement at all. If you're not just being disingenuous here, and you really can't see how it's not comparable, stack more intellect and get back to me.

Sorry, doing the content to unlock the other allied races doesn't mean you are not lazy for wanting the other allied races to be handed to you for free. The requirements are fine as is. ALl that needs to happen is some fine tuning by upping rep gains. and the time gates. You want something? Earn it. Don't ask to be handed it to you for free.

The "git gud. EARN IT" mentality surrounding Allied Races is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. God forbid we put the challenge and reward structure in the gameplay itself. Nope, we don't need harder content, we need more tedious unlocks.

What a joke.

[laplacedemon]

Cataclysm was soooo bad that the Annual pass was forged with a free copy of Diablo 3 just to keep everyone subbed to the game during the worst expansion content drought and worst expansion period. And that was a contract to remain subbed for a year.

Look at it this way... Imagine they were to do another annual pass now, what are they going to pair it up with? Diablo mobile?

It's really irrelevant if the expansion from 9 years ago is better or worse than the current one. I only care about what I'm playing right now (and I don't mind it that much as long as raids are fine).

[Yunaqt]

And just because you hear it from different people every expansion doesn't mean it can always be brushed off. This would be a good case of that.

Except how would this be a good case for that? It isn't even a case at all unless you've confused me with another poster and misquoted. I haven't refuted a single piece of criticism, just pointed out the fact that the sky is falling every expansion which has been the case since BC.

[RobertMugabe]

Cataclysm was soooo bad that the Annual pass was forged with a free copy of Diablo 3 just to keep everyone subbed to the game during the worst expansion content drought and worst expansion period. And that was a contract to remain subbed for a year.

Why are people acting like BFA is worse than Cataclysm? People really do have short memories... BFA is far superior to Cataclysm.

And better yet why are people acting like they didnt scream doom and gloom when MoP launched? WoW dropped to something like 5mil subs and everyone swore on their mothers that WoW was now dead.

Its like history continues to repeat itself and these guys look for a new expansion to call the end of WoW and to say WoW is garbage. I'll never forget the community vs the pandas. I've never seen so much hate and disdain to a game when MoP was revealed and pandas were coming to WoW lool

BFA is not fine, far from perfect but boy its way better than WoW has been at its worst.

Yeah Cata had its flaws. Many of the changes I was hyped about turned out be a disappointment. Especially the zones were terrible in many ways. I mean both the new and revamped zones looked awesome, but MOST of the zones had pop culture references as their main story (+Uldum) and thus they all lost their 'magic' and were more or less a joke. I also thought that most of the dungeons were bad.

Overall I dunno though. Cata felt generally a lot like Wotlk (their endgame content 'formula' was basically the same), actually Cata reminds me a lot of BfA, since Cata was for me a weaker version of Wotlk (gameplay was very similar, but it had less of it and it wasn't as good), while BfA is a weaker Legion.

[Yunaqt]

Yeah Cata had its flaws. Many of the changes I was hyped about turned out be a disappointment. Especially the zones were terrible in many ways. I mean both the new and revamped zones looked awesome, but MOST of the zones had pop culture references as their main story (+Uldum) and thus they all lost their 'magic' and were more or less a joke. I also thought that most of the dungeons were bad.

Overall I dunno though. Cata felt generally a lot like Wotlk (their endgame content 'formula' was basically the same), actually Cata reminds me a lot of BfA, since Cata was for me a weaker version of Wotlk (gameplay was very similar, but it had less of it and it wasn't as good), while BfA is a weaker Legion.

The bunch of pop culture meme quests were and still are horrible.

-_-

[DazManianDevil]

If the group took 3hours to clear Grim Batol, they were not semi-decent, they were likely far less good than they thought they were.
Grim Batol was not hard, it had a high emphasis on moving out of fire (3rd boss in particular) and target switching 1st & 4th boss and punished failing those 2 simple mechanics.

Maybe it was my server, I distinctly remember the first boss being a nightmare because his Blitz wasn't always telegraphed correctly and if he got the enrage from the purple add (I swear we'd kill it 20+yards away and he'd still get the uber enrage buff half the time) he would 1shot the tank through Shield wall.
Obviously once we did it a few times it was ezpz, I was referring to first time at bat, no strats for tanking him on the bridge were known etc.

Not to mention Erudax and his purple shit 2 shotting you despite being in the circle on over half my pulls before the first round of nerfs and fixes.
We were probably bad, the tank was an old school sunwell raider but I can't vouch for the dps.

[Hyral]

oof.

We all know it's WotLK > BC >= MoP > Classic >> Cataclysm > Childhood Cancer > Legion > BfA > WoD

Yeah, yeah I know. I'm one of the four people who like BfA. We used to be five but turns out that guy was just being ironic.

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Diablo Immortal is probably going to be free from the start(abeit with tons of obvious microtransacts because activision)

Hehe, I know buddy. Probably a free app with a cash shop. It was just a joke.

I don't actually think they'll be giving free phones so we can play it either.

[rrayy]

Yeah, the problem is I didn't have to earn the trust of the Blood Elves, or Bilgewater Cartel. Hell, the Pandaren just blew into Orgrimmar one day without much prompting.

None of them were allied races because they immediately joined their respecive faction based on lore reasons. These allied Races are sub races which you recruit into your faction. Big difference.

Storytelling isn't a justification for bad mechanics, especially when the storytelling, in most cases, is subpar. In what world did my actions with the Argussian Reach earn the trust of certain magisters in Quel'thalas that had yet to be exiled?

IF you follow the story line, they tell you why. THey are the ones who showed you the void.

That's actually not the premise of my statement at all. If you're not just being disingenuous here, and you really can't see how it's not comparable, stack more intellect and get back to me.

You quite literally said "Any system that gives Blizzard money is bad. Period" Also, making a personal attack against me like that isn't going to make me take you any more seriously. In fact, it makes me take you even less seriously.

The "git gud. EARN IT" mentality surrounding Allied Races is one of the most ridiculous things I've seen. God forbid we put the challenge and reward structure in the gameplay itself. Nope, we don't need harder content, we need more tedious unlocks.

What a joke.

The increasing entitlement of players is what is ridiculous and a joke. Players just don't want to work for anything anymore. They want everything handed to them for free. It's not about getting good. You don't have to be good to finish these requirements. You just have to have the want to actually put in the effort.

As I said, all that needs to be done is up the reps gains in everything you do and remove the time gates. That takes out the tedium. It also keeps the reward aspect in and isn't rewarding laziness.

It makes me wonder how you survive in the real world where you actually have to work to get something.

[Yunaqt]

Maybe it was my server, I distinctly remember the first boss being a nightmare because his Blitz wasn't always telegraphed correctly and if he got the enrage from the purple add (I swear we'd kill it 20+yards away and he'd still get the uber enrage buff half the time) he would 1shot the tank through Shield wall.
Obviously once we did it a few times it was ezpz, I was referring to first time at bat, no strats for tanking him on the bridge were known etc.

Not to mention Erudax and his purple shit 2 shotting you despite being in the circle on over half my pulls before the first round of nerfs and fixes.
We were probably bad, the tank was an old school sunwell raider but I can't vouch for the dps.

I can't fully remember but i'm pretty sure I could soothe the enrage (played r druid at the time) so that made it pretty easy + being able to just root the adds as they dropped kept them miles away.
Yeah I remember the fire you needed to be on your toes and if DPS were slack at switching to the ele's it would go bad quickly. Was an infuriating fight to pug & what really coined the phrase wrath babies.
There was a high emphasis on mechanics for sure, which you don't really see now until you're doing the higher end of M+.

[MildCore]

Are you witnessing the same people complain about an expansion year after year? A saying may help shed some light onto why you witness complaints regarding every expansion, and continuous varying opinions.

"A sucker is born every minute." - That's what I imagine. Every day new people come into this world, try World of Warcraft, age. Every expansion that's released has a different collection of people overall. You witness the same complaints coming from different people at different times due to enduring similar circumstances under similar conditions. Yes it's annoying, but also a bit funny.

Have you ever found yourself to come up with a great idea in your life, not thinking anyone else could've possibly thought about (since you hadn't encountered it yet) and then went and googled it to only find out that the first 1000 pages are full of people positing your idea in various forums, etc. That's what's happening.

So yes, history repeats itself because people often don't study the history of whatever they're storming onto the internet to complain about before complaining. I know I've done it a lot in my life.

[Wildberry]

None of them were allied races because they immediately joined their respecive faction based on lore reasons. These allied Races are sub races which you recruit into your faction. Big difference.

Neither the Blood Elves or Goblins were part of the Horde at the time of their starting experience. Pandaren signed on with both factions at the very end, too.

IF you follow the story line, they tell you why. THey are the ones who showed you the void.

Yeah, they're a faction that's completely divorced from the actual Void Elves themselves, and only have a flimsy link through Alleria. Top tier storytelling right there. It totally justifies a system that punishes new and returning players!

You quite literally said "Any system that gives Blizzard money is bad. Period" Also, making a personal attack against me like that isn't going to make me take you any more seriously. In fact, it makes me take you even less seriously.

No, that's actually not what I said. Refer to that statement again, and read it. Go slowly if you have to.

The increasing entitlement of players is what is ridiculous and a joke. Players just don't want to work for anything anymore.

Players didn't have to work for races prior to the Allied Race system.

And please, save the boomer rant, the entire point of my comment is that it's extraordinarily stupid to suggest players should put in "effort" for something that, historically, hasn't required effort, instead of suggesting they put in effort elsewhere (ie, raids, dungeons, attunements, actually playing your class properly, etc.)

I'm all for difficulty on those fronts, I'm not for adding a layer of tedium designed to up MAU metrics at the expense of new and returning players.

Miss me with the boomer comments.

[schwarzkopf]

Apparently, people have different opinions. Cata was one of the best xpacs for me, if not the best.

BC was the only thing worse than Catalcysm.

[D3athsting]

Cataclysm, content-wise, was abysmal (same with BfA), but at least classes weren't complete garbage back then.

Except for rogues who were so fuc*ed up that gc himself somehow admitted that and added legendary daggers for some sort of apologize, i still have rl's voice in my head shouting "melees we don't give fuck about your dps, just do mechanics"

[Wildberry]

Except for rogues who were so fuc*ed up that gc himself somehow admitted that and added legendary daggers for some sort of apologize, i still have rl's voice in my head shouting "melees we don't give fuck about your dps, just do mechanics"

Yeah, Rogues got the short end of the stick. Don't worry they screwed up my class, too.

It's still a far cry from the absolute scourging that's happened to class design since WoD launched.

[TJ]

Cataclysm was soooo bad that the Annual pass was forged with a free copy of Diablo 3 just to keep everyone subbed to the game during the worst expansion content drought and worst expansion period. And that was a contract to remain subbed for a year.

Why are people acting like BFA is worse than Cataclysm? People really do have short memories... BFA is far superior to Cataclysm.

And better yet why are people acting like they didnt scream doom and gloom when MoP launched? WoW dropped to something like 5mil subs and everyone swore on their mothers that WoW was now dead.

Its like history continues to repeat itself and these guys look for a new expansion to call the end of WoW and to say WoW is garbage. I'll never forget the community vs the pandas. I've never seen so much hate and disdain to a game when MoP was revealed and pandas were coming to WoW lool

BFA is not fine, far from perfect but boy its way better than WoW has been at its worst.

Cata was an awesome expansion. I leveled multiple characters, raided hardcore, did PvP, made money, pretty much everything and never got bored. Annual pass was not just implemented because "Cataclysm was sooo bad".

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Cata was good, Dragon Soul wasnt..

I thought DS was decent, just the penultimate and final fight were a bit of a let down... DS lasting for what seemed like forever was bad though.

[Saverem]

Cataclysm was soooo bad that the Annual pass was forged with a free copy of Diablo 3 just to keep everyone subbed to the game during the worst expansion content drought and worst expansion period. And that was a contract to remain subbed for a year.

Why are people acting like BFA is worse than Cataclysm? People really do have short memories... BFA is far superior to Cataclysm.

And better yet why are people acting like they didnt scream doom and gloom when MoP launched? WoW dropped to something like 5mil subs and everyone swore on their mothers that WoW was now dead.

Its like history continues to repeat itself and these guys look for a new expansion to call the end of WoW and to say WoW is garbage. I'll never forget the community vs the pandas. I've never seen so much hate and disdain to a game when MoP was revealed and pandas were coming to WoW lool

BFA is not fine, far from perfect but boy its way better than WoW has been at its worst.

Cata was actually my least favorite and least played expansion. I raided in vanilla, TBC, and WotLK, and Cata was the first expansion that had me quit the game before the first tier raid was even over. It was that bad. I didn't come back to serious raiding til Legion from that.