Lead Singer Of Rock Band Shot And Killed By Five Juveniles Ages 12 To 16

[Pooti]

I take it then you lead quite a privileged life?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging. Hell I also lead a "privileged" life. However I am not willfully ignorant of the fact that most people don't (hence why it's called "privileged")

It's already been pointed out that these kids are black. Which strongly suggests that they come from a poor family living in a poor area. Please don't tell me you wouldn't be surprised to find out that these kids come from single parent families with mom working 3 jobs. But sure, it's entirely her fault that her kid got involved in this.

If you really want to find someone or something blame, blame the society and the government running that society for creating an environment in which stuff like this is all but inevitable.


Also, don't be so smug. I have known of several tragic stories involving kids, all of which happened to parents just like you and I who did everything right. The fact that you have been successful in not having any such tragedies in your life is not entirely because of you. Sure, you've stacked the odds in your favour, but there is always an element of luck. That being said, you're not alone in this attitude. A common theme among parents who have lost kids, or whose kids have done something bad, is that they are shunned by "good" people who choose, smugly, to believe that bad things only happen to bad people. It's an easy way to feel safe. But it is a delusion, and it simply serves to add to the injustice of what those people have to suffer through.

I am not trying to be smug, I know that sure it could have happened to me. But if it had I would own the responsibility of it. It would be our failure as parents. That is not to say we would be bad parents, even good parents can fail. Making babies has a personal responsibility attached to it that makes that life and it's success and well being paramount to your own, as I see it. It is sad to me that you brought up the race of the children, as I consider it irrelevant. Children of all races are brought up in households perpetuating low values and poor character. Also people of all races fall victim to the outside influence of low values and poor character, despite what is taught in the home.

[Raelbo]

It's not opinion, it's written right in history. He was a sick, evil man.

No, it's "not written right in history". It's written on some crappy website that likes to stir controversy by some hack looking to get hits on his site.

But sure keep doubling down on it. I am sure that in time it will cause me to respect what you're saying

PS: At this point you're strawmanning and using ad hominem all in one.

[ellieg]

If 184 words is an essay then perhaps we should be having a discussion on education instead.

I'm glad you've conceded to my arguments, all this stuff can be found easily online if you want to do some more digging into the problems facing the US.

Best of luck.

No I legit dont see the point u are trying to make. I said ppl that commit murder shld be sterilized. U concluded I have had a horrible life or something. I countered that u could've just as easily had a terrible life. Then u kinda trailed off talking about patriotism or something lol

[Najnaj]

...... It is sad to me that you brought up the race of the children, as I consider it irrelevant........

Unfortunately that is very wrong. It should be irrelevant but it isn't. Race is a huge deal and the economic status of a visible minority is self perpetuating.

[Orange Joe]

So you mean, the entire reasoning of their brains being underdeveloped wasn't brought up as an excuse for the behaviour of these troubled youths?

Excuse their behavior? No. A reason they shouldn't be tried as adult or get the death penalty, yes.


It's possible to think someone shouldn't get the worst punishment possible without excusing their behavior.

[Nefastus]

Well she has grandchildren who aren't murderers, and she hasn't killed anyone since. Because she got the help she needed.

So she castrated and killed 2 boys and is fine now because she got help, awesome! How are the boys doing? Oh, right, they got brutally killed. They can't have grandchildren as they are dead. Their families, ruined. Still all is good because the sick pyscho got her help and is living a happy life now.

The help she needed was being in jail for life or worse.

[Pooti]

Unfortunately that is very wrong. It should be irrelevant but it isn't. Race is a huge deal and the economic status of a visible minority is self perpetuating.

It is only relevant if people perpetuate it.

[Dextroden]

Excuse their behavior? No. A reason they shouldn't be tried as adult or get the death penalty, yes.


It's possible to think someone shouldn't get the worst punishment possible without excusing their behavior.

So people under 25 also shouldn't be tried as adults for the very same reasoning, right?

[Saucexorzski]

Excuse their behavior? No. A reason they shouldn't be tried as adult or get the death penalty, yes.


It's possible to think someone shouldn't get the worst punishment possible without excusing their behavior.

Glad you came in in time to change the argument other folks made, you sure saved them!

[Orange Joe]

So people under 25 also shouldn't be tried as adults for the very same reasoning, right?

No, and no one said that in this thread. This is what I'm talking about you taking something and making it absurd.


I personally think we should go with what laws are in place. Meaning charge them as the juveniles they are.

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Glad you came in in time to change the argument other folks made, you sure saved them!

Whose did I change? Who was excusing their behaviors and not arguing against trying them as an adult/death

[Raelbo]

I am not trying to be smug, I know that sure it could have happened to me. But if it had I would own the responsibility of it. It would be our failure as parents. That is not to say we would be bad parents, even good parents can fail. Making babies has a personal responsibility attached to it that makes that life and it's success and well being paramount to your own, as I see it.

I think it's entirely natural that any good parent would feel like a failure if their child did something like this. That doesn't mean that we're correct or that society should seek out retribution against those parents.

It is sad to me that you brought up the race of the children, as I consider it irrelevant.

Sad why? Are you uncomfortable with the idea that black people in general are massively disadvantaged in US society, and that one of the consequences is that statistical they're a lot more at risk of falling victim to this sort of thing?

I mean, sure it would be sad if I was trying to argue that they did this because they're black and it's in black people's nature to do this sort of thing (or some other similar BS that some people here have already tried to spin). But that is about as far from what I am trying to do as is possible.

FFS, I am trying to explain why people need to have more empat

Children of all races are brought up in households perpetuating low values and poor character. Also people of all races fall victim to the outside influence of low values and poor character, despite what is taught in the home.

I never said anything about the children being brought up in "households perpetuating low values and poor character". I said that they likely came from "a poor family living in a poor area". The point being that living under such conditions makes it difficult for the parents to be as involved as they might want to be, out of necessity (for survival).

The point was to juxtapose your personal circumstances with the likely reality that these people have to live with, since your narrative seemed to be something along the lines "if I could do this with my kids, then they should have done so with theirs - otherwise they're just bad parents"

[Saucexorzski]

No, and no one said that in this thread. This is what I'm talking about you taking something and making it absurd.


I personally think we should go with what laws are in place. Meaning charge them as the juveniles they are.

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Whose did I change? Who was excusing their behaviors and not arguing against trying them as an adult/death

Theminus you blind thats where this started you might wana check the full conversions before you jump in yo

[Dextroden]

No, and no one said that in this thread. This is what I'm talking about you taking something and making it absurd.


I personally think we should go with what laws are in place. Meaning charge them as the juveniles they are.

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Whose did I change? Who was excusing their behaviors and not arguing against trying them as an adult/death

No. If you believe them having underdeveloped brains is a reason to be tried as a juvenile, as you said, that logic should apply to everyone. Otherwise, my question becomes why do only these kids get the "brains haven't finished developing" defense?

[Orange Joe]

Theminus you blind thats where this started you might wana check the full conversions before you jump in yo

I've been reading his posts. He is saying the same thing I am...... Or can you quote him saying they shouldn't receive any punishment?

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No. If you believe them having underdeveloped brains is a reason to be tried as a juvenile, as you said, that logic should apply to everyone. Otherwise, my question becomes why do only these kids get the "brains haven't finished developing" defense?

Not gonna play this game with you, been there done that. Take your absurdity elsewhere.

[Dextroden]

I've been reading his posts. He is saying the same thing I am...... Or can you quote him saying they shouldn't receive any punishment?

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Not gonna play this game with you, been there done that. Take your absurdity elsewhere.

I'm sorry you don't like your flawless logic being challenged by reason.

[Raelbo]

What you are talking about is a specific type of empathy, empathy to the physical pains and discomforts of others. That thing when your balls contract when you see a video of a pin being forced in under a nail. It is really basic, after the fact stuff. Other more complex types of empathy requires exposure and a lot of different types of exposure. Most us us never learn all of this fully and have issues with very traumatic stuff. For example did you know that parents who lose a child to cancer often lose many of their friends soon after as they don't know how to deal with the situation. Developing empathy does not end at 9, in fact it never ends.

To deal with multiple outcomes, multiple possible feelings of several people and worst case scenarios you need experience. I dare say that no 50 year old would join up with a strung out 15 year old holding with a stolen gun but many 12 year olds would....as they lack the ability to figure out what will possibly happen later, as does the 15 year old but to a lesser degree.

A 12 year old does not have the experience or knowledge to be able to figure out where this situation is going to end up or how terrifying it must have been for the victim. Mob mentality vs a 12 year old brain is by no means a fair fight. One is hardwired into us and one is learned.

Good post.

Reminds me a bit of Lord of the Flies (William Golding). A brilliant read which is very insightful in the nature of children and how susceptible they are to undue influences. I've not read the book in over 20 years, so I'd be interested to read it again after stuff I have experienced and seen, especially wrt sociopaths/psychopaths

[Pooti]

I think it's entirely natural that any good parent would feel like a failure if their child did something like this. That doesn't mean that we're correct or that society should seek out retribution against those parents.



Sad why? Are you uncomfortable with the idea that black people in general are massively disadvantaged in US society, and that one of the consequences is that statistical they're a lot more at risk of falling victim to this sort of thing?

I mean, sure it would be sad if I was trying to argue that they did this because they're black and it's in black people's nature to do this sort of thing (or some other similar BS that some people here have already tried to spin). But that is about as far from what I am trying to do as is possible.

FFS, I am trying to explain why people need to have more empat



I never said anything about the children being brought up in "households perpetuating low values and poor character". I said that they likely came from "a poor family living in a poor area". The point being that living under such conditions makes it difficult for the parents to be as involved as they might want to be, out of necessity (for survival).

The point was to juxtapose your personal circumstances with the likely reality that these people have to live with, since your narrative seemed to be something along the lines "if I could do this with my kids, then they should have done so with theirs - otherwise they're just bad parents"

I actually said quite to the contrary the exact words that failure does not make them bad parents, so please do not put words in my mouth.

Also, correlating race with poverty is ridiculous. I would even dare say that poverty does not force people into low values. A desire to attain things without working for them does. I see the bigger problem is the envy of people that have things that maybe you do not. Especially superficial things.

[Bae]

So if you kill someone at 5 yo, do we jail you for 25 and then kill you?

There are so many things wrong with this short statement that it is hard to know where to begin but perhaps 5 min of reading on how law works in the most basic ways would do you good.

I know how the law works. Doesnt mean thats how it should work. Also i dont believe a 5 year old is capeable of knowing what theyre doing is totally wrong. 12-16 year olds are so comparing the two is pathetic and just seems like youre going to extremes to be proved right.

[Orange Joe]

I'm sorry you don't like your flawless logic being challenged by reason.

My "flawless logic" is how the current legal system works. It's why we don't charge juveniles as adults. Except in rare cases. So if you have issues with my logic you need to discuss it with the US legal system.

[Dextroden]

My "flawless logic" is how the current legal system works. It's why we don't charge juveniles as adults. Except in rare cases. So if you have issues with my logic you need to discuss it with the US legal system.

I didn't realize brain development was how we decided that. Could have sworn it was a case by case basis. But I look forward to you backing that up.