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  1. #461
    It's simply worse implementations all across the board. Less focused (or at least less interesting) enemy, less interesting environments + the landmasses being too far away from each other, GCD, even worse class design (and that's no small feat), arguably lamer artwork in terms of armor, on and on.

    Legion was a hit record, BfA is a b-side.

  2. #462
    Because Legion was well executed and had relatively spot-on release schedules. This drip-feed in story that they're doing is absolutely pathetic and you KNOW they're holding back content because they don't even have the staff to work on the game effectively anymore, and they'll release it, drip-feed, to keep subs up.

    It's not tin-foil-hat, it's purely logical at this point.

  3. #463
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

    Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
    It has the same dungeon systems
    It has the same mythic+ systems
    It has the same raiding systems
    It has the same PvP gearing system
    It has the same PvP rank system
    It has the same world quest system
    It has the same titanforging system

    It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
    Lmao exactly. Why would anyone enjoy poorly rebranded stuff for next 2 years?

    Pvp gearing is shit btw, cause i never wanted and never will want that stupid 345 1h sword.

  4. #464
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    Right? It's at least as good as Legion. Pretty much everything relevant from Legion is intact. I disagree with them removing legendaries and I don't like Azerite, but neither thing is game ruining.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    These two are tied together, and false. Apparently you haven't been paying attention.

    1) Personal loot for everything. No master loot. This is super important for progression.
    2) Azerite gear can not titanforge, and azerite drops often force you to re-grind traits and abilities you already had.
    3) Not having an artifact weapon and its traits limits a pretty significant part of progression and power curve.
    4) No legendaries to boost performance.

    Considering that WoW is fundamentally a loot-based game, this is pretty damn significant change. Throw on top of that classes which had a large portion of their talents and abilities removed, the total removal of the class order hall, the loss of flight and grind/timegate to get it AGAIN, and you have a fundamental undercut in the feeling of empowerment and enjoyment for a LOT of players.

    I can not stress enough how significant this is. Taking that much empowerment out of the hands of players and replacing it with nothing is at the heart of many people's lack of enjoyment of BfA. At one point during beta or early after BfA launch, Ion told us they had to cull and remove a bunch of stuff to make room for new things. Where are these "new" things? Islands? Warfronts? Don't make me laugh!
    They shouldn't have removed legendaries and they shouldn't have front loaded azerite as much as they have. The powerful traits should be the last ones earned, but they wanted to avoid the crying that happened leading up to Nighthold in Legion. Actually they shouldn't have scrapped artifact weapons.

    Personal loot hasn't been an issue in progression, or at least not as much of one as people anticipated. Annoying? Somewhat. Harmful to progression? Not really.
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  5. #465
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Personal loot hasn't been an issue in progression, or at least not as much of one as people anticipated. Annoying? Somewhat. Harmful to progression? Not really.
    Important in regards to how guild dynamics work. You take away one of the pillars of guilds working together and replace it with a slot machine.

  6. #466
    One thing that hurt badly is how I feel as a player compared to Legion. In Legion I was powerfull, now in BfA I feel like little more then a soldier. Not just due to the loss of the artifact and the bad redo of classes, but also the stat squish. And worse yet, despite having squished twice now, the reasons the squish was needed, still have not been resolved. So I know, in the future, this will happen again.
    I'm an altoholic since 2005.

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucep View Post
    One thing that hurt badly is how I feel as a player compared to Legion. In Legion I was powerfull, now in BfA I feel like little more then a soldier. Not just due to the loss of the artifact and the bad redo of classes, but also the stat squish. And worse yet, despite having squished twice now, the reasons the squish was needed, still have not been resolved. So I know, in the future, this will happen again.
    I don't think it's the stat squish _per se_ but the scaling. The same exact idea they implemented in Legion then immediately reverted due to massive public outcry.

    I feel fairly safe safe in saying most people don't want to feel consistently weaker as they move through the expansion content, with literally no gains until you max level and get semi decent gear do you start to beat the scaling curve. And ofc there are massive power cliffs you fall off, especially at 116.

  8. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Important in regards to how guild dynamics work. You take away one of the pillars of guilds working together and replace it with a slot machine.
    Your loot system was what held your guild together?
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  9. #469
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Your loot system was what held your guild together?
    Sure, they incentivize sticking with the same guild to get loot. If you skip around you never build up enough DKP to buy anything good. It's not all gravy and rainbows though. Loot councils, I would argue, often have the opposite effect.

  10. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Sure, they incentivize sticking with the same guild to get loot. If you skip around you never build up enough DKP to buy anything good. It's not all gravy and rainbows though. Loot councils, I would argue, often have the opposite effect.
    It's a good thing that no serious guild has used DKP in the last several expansions then.
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  11. #471
    Serious mythic progression guilds didn't, because they were split raiding and such to funnel loot to their chosen ones. They don't need to worry much about retaining players anyway, because they're prestigious.

    Lots of other guilds did, because it was the least bad system. But I would argue for those less serious guilds, finishing up heroic in a month or two then dipping their toes into mythic, personal loot is better anyway. No temptation to go loot council and screw your guildmates.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2019-02-15 at 11:01 PM.

  12. #472
    There is a big bad mojo currently with the playerbase because blizzard has made themself a fool with their RP(diablo inmortal, the whole pre patch of bfa, no new game in development, etc) which you can see when you are playing, the people is less forgiven and nice in general(even in mythic plus 1), islands and wf being boring compared to the hunting of artifact skins and of course the classes are broken in the sense they feel very boring, defensives being in the gcd and the rotations are even more boring than Legion.

    Also if you like the Lore this expansion is pretty much a kick in the balls
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  13. #473
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    Imagine someone who enjoys a medium rare steak being handed a well-done steak. BFA doubles down on the systems in Legion that drew the most criticism while abandoning most of the better-received systems, and accompanies this with sloppy class design, an uninspired storyline, and multiple design decisions that reek of incompetent management.

    When someone likes their steak medium rare, and you give them a well-done steak, don't be surprised when they make a face and say it's overcooked and tell them, "But you liked the other steak I gave you."
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  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by MiiiMiii View Post
    Me, personally have not enjoyed this game in a LONG time. I believe it has been bad since WotLK. I am, however, confused why people seem to love Legion and hate BfA.

    Let's compare BfA to Legion for a moment:
    It has the same dungeon systems
    It has the same mythic+ systems
    It has the same raiding systems
    It has the same looting systems
    It has the same PvP gearing system
    It has the same PvP rank system
    It has the same world quest system
    It has the same titanforging system

    It has, in my opinion, actually has improved PvP gear mattering, added Conquest points and made PvP combat better than Legion.
    It has, in my opinion, an improved world, music and quest system.

    My understanding has been that a lot of people concidered Legion as "best expansion ever" and that those same people (could be wrong) conciders BfA as the "worst expansion ever".

    Assuming Blizzard beleved you guys, and Legion was actually the best WoW has ever been. What exectly is so much worse in BfA than Legion?

    Was it the Legendary system of Legion what made it so good?
    Was it the Artifact weapon - "you do content to get transmog for your artifact weapon" - what made Legion so good?
    Was the classes in Legion that much more fun than in BfA?

    The only things left to blame is the NEW systems. Namely
    1. Azerite Armor system
    2. Island Expeditions
    3. War mode
    4. Warfront

    Blizzard seem to be in the same boat as you guys, they look at Legion as the greatest expansion ever. So they only compare Legion to BfA in order to "fix the game". They spend all their energy on the above 4 systems...

    If they "fix" all these systems, do you honestly think the game will suddenly be fun?
    Legion was fun, but it was not the best expansion ever. It had a better end game than WoD. It was more hype than MoP. It was more fun than the last content patch of Cataclysm. It was not better than anything that came before Cataclysm.

    BfA is Legion, but worse.

    Mythic dungeons suck because they are on a once a week lockout that also requires you to form a group outside of the Dungeon Finder.
    Mythic+ dungeons are a neat concept, but the dungeons in BfA are worse and less interesting than the ones in Legion.
    Raiding systems are also unchanged from WoD.
    Looting systems have changed actually.
    PvP gear and PvP rank systems are both quite different actually.
    World quest system is the same, sure, but the quests are less interesting and less gimmicky.
    Titanforging system sucks and was one of the worst parts of Legion, to be frank.

    And as for the new systems...

    Azerite Armor (and the dumb necklace) is a mix of Legion legendaries and the artifact weapons, but worse.
    Island Expeditions might be fun content, but there are little to no reason to actually run them.
    War Mode is irrelevant. It's just PvP server mode that you can turn on and off.
    Warfronts are baby mode content that the developers apparently didn't have enough confidence in to actually design well, so they made the difficulty level non-existent.

    BfA is mostly more Legion, but either worse or not as cool. Legion had a lot of underlying systems that actually were very bad, but the content was so hype that people didn't care.

  15. #475
    Quote Originally Posted by Eucep View Post
    And worse yet, despite having squished twice now, the reasons the squish was needed, still have not been resolved. So I know, in the future, this will happen again.
    You don't understand why they did the squish. It wasn't because they wanted stats to stay small, it's because they wanted room to rapidly inflate them, again and again. The current stat inflation is working as they intended.
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  16. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sariengrey View Post
    I may be in the minority but hated Legion , least favorite xpac of WOW, don't mind BFA personally. Different strokes....
    something is wrong with you .. BfA is basically Legion with good things cut off and kept the shit stuff and add more new shit suff to it (islands,Warfronts,worse AP system)

  17. #477
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Your loot system was what held your guild together?
    Don't make this about me, personally.

    Guilds are a team of people working together. Sometimes that teamwork is coordinating who tanks, what alt to bring for a specific raid encounter, or who has what profession. Sometimes it's lending a guildy gold, or running them through a dungeon.

    In raiding, Master loot let teams of people work together and determine the best place for the loot to help them progress. Players got invested in their team. Trust was built. That's kind of an important aspect of raiding. Blizzard removed that. Now the only time you can give a teammate loot is if you literally can't use it, taking the decision out of your team's hand. It's no longer teamwork. It's just hand-me-down.

  18. #478
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    We're also missing a new class, that was new in legion.

    The order halls were new and exciting.

    The artifact weapons were new and exciting (and better, imo, than the necklace and azerite traits)

    the AP grind had permanent rewards, you weren't unlocking the same traits and then getting a new piece of gear only to have to do MORE grinding for the same trait you just had.


    Also, for me, the story was better. The Legion was scary. Faction war? Why? It's a fight that we all know can never be won on either side and any battles we have have to be exactly 1:1 in victory or the player base goes absolutely rabid with "MUH x BIAS" on the forums.


    I'm also annoyed it likely won't be until March that I'll finally get to play Zandalari. Thank god I didn't have to wait until two raid tiers into the expac to try out demon hunters, although classes are different than allied races.

  19. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Don't make this about me, personally.

    Guilds are a team of people working together. Sometimes that teamwork is coordinating who tanks, what alt to bring for a specific raid encounter, or who has what profession. Sometimes it's lending a guildy gold, or running them through a dungeon.

    In raiding, Master loot let teams of people work together and determine the best place for the loot to help them progress. Players got invested in their team. Trust was built. That's kind of an important aspect of raiding. Blizzard removed that. Now the only time you can give a teammate loot is if you literally can't use it, taking the decision out of your team's hand. It's no longer teamwork. It's just hand-me-down.
    In 14~ years of raiding I can honestly say I've never known anyone to actually be excited about giving someone else a piece of loot unless they were dating.
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  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    In 14~ years of raiding I can honestly say I've never known anyone to actually be excited about giving someone else a piece of loot unless they were dating.
    Then you've never been in a good raid group that was actually a team. Sounds like you've mostly just been in groups of friends or PUGs who are kind of selfish.

    Oh well, can't blame you for not understanding something you've never seen before.

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